Squad
Not Your Huckleberry 2021. márc. 6., 23:45
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Squad Lanes Destroying RAAS
Take out RAAS or make it actually Random. Squad Lanes has destroyed RAAS layer. Those who know about it anticipate and destroy maps.
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106120/120 megjegyzés mutatása
Cat Harsis (Kitiltva) 2021. aug. 16., 18:53 
Zylfrax791 eredeti hozzászólása:
Aegmar eredeti hozzászólása:
he would probably argue that squadlanes somehow "levels the playing field" between longtime players and newcomers to Squad.

Maybe so, but I'd still like to hear his own explanation as to why decompiling information from the internal code of the Squad SDK is a positive thing for the gameplay and the community in general. Certainly somebody reading this knows of him and would like to ask him to drop by and justify his reasons for ruining the game experience for a lot of folks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFGYkDxdRYE
Zylfrax791 eredeti hozzászólása:
It would be really interesting if the main creator of this cheeser website would drop by and explain why he thinks reverse engineering the sdk is a positive thing for the game and the community.

Hi, I'm the main contributor to https://squadlanes.com. Small nitpick before I get to the important part: We don't even use the SDK. We straight up datamine the Steam-distributed game files. It's quite a sophisticated process and if you want to know how it works, it's all open-source at https://github.com/w4rum/squadlanes

Now to your question. @Aegmar predicted my response quite well

Aegmar eredeti hozzászólása:
he would probably argue that squadlanes somehow "levels the playing field" between longtime players and newcomers to Squad.

Squadlanes didn't change the RAAS game mode. Memorizing lanes was possible long before that website went public. In fact, I got the idea from Captain's match analysis videos (https://www.youtube.com/c/BHMCaptain), where he used the knowledge from his manual research to successfully predict mid points.

My main problem with memorizing lanes is the following:

1. In some scenarios, it is an extreme advantage. If Narva RAAS v1 goes to west lane and you know that within your first point, you've basically already won the early game fight over the mid point.

2. Memorizing lanes takes *a lot* of work. And not "fun work". It's sitting in a private server and reloading the map for 50-100 hours. That should not be considered part of the "experience". Sure, you can get a basic understanding of the lanes on some maps from regular playing, but knowing that Narva RAAS v1 Power Plant actually has a *lower* chance to go to west lane? No way you'd know that without reloading and taking notes on a private Narva RAAS v1 server for at least 5 hours.

The problem here is that there will be some players that do put in the work and get a huge advantage through that. But the sheer amount of work that it takes to research this on your own makes this advantage so unattainable for most players that I consider it an unfair advantage. This is not "putting in the work to become a better player". This is purposefully doing completely asanine manual labor for 100 hours instead of enjoying the video game. This should not be in the game.

This is why I wrote those datamining scripts that make all of this publicly available and easy to understand. So that we can go back to balanced games where we meet the enemy to fight over the midpoint instead of winning because the enemy guessed wrong and is now 2km out of position, making the next 5-10 minutes just a boring wait-and-cap.

Newbie SLs have it hard enough. Knowing what the RAAS layout looks like makes it a lot easier to form a sensible strategy. We just give them the info they need, without them having to sink 100 hours into the game first.

If you don't like Squadlanes and you think it ruins the game, then your problem is probably not with Squadlanes but with how the RAAS gamemode works.

We didn't break anything. We just made you see that it was already broken.

Squadlanes is, in essence, just a guide for each map. It has the same kind of information that you'd find in a wiki. If looking at the wiki "destroys" the multiplayer experience, that's not the wiki's fault. It's bad game design.
Legutóbb szerkesztette: Tim | w4rum; 2021. szept. 10., 17:28
Tim | w4rum eredeti hozzászólása:
So that we can go back to balanced games where we meet the enemy to fight over the midpoint instead of winning because the enemy guessed wrong and is now 2km out of position, making the next 5-10 minutes just a boring wait-and-cap.

Except with squadlanes this isn't what happens. It is people rushing each others 2nd or 3rd cap...which is the exact same issue that AAS has.

Disagree with your assessment.
Onimaho eredeti hozzászólása:
Tim | w4rum eredeti hozzászólása:
So that we can go back to balanced games where we meet the enemy to fight over the midpoint instead of winning because the enemy guessed wrong and is now 2km out of position, making the next 5-10 minutes just a boring wait-and-cap.

Except with squadlanes this isn't what happens. It is people rushing each others 2nd or 3rd cap...which is the exact same issue that AAS has.

Disagree with your assessment.

I can see your point. Early point rushes are a big problem with AAS and knowing the RAAS layout makes early point rushes viable in RAAS as well. My point still stands: This was always possible in RAAS but hidden behind an unnecessarily high amount of manual labor to research the layout.

Early point rushes are a problem that stems from how AAS and RAAS works. Not because Squadlanes tells you how RAAS works. The fix that we need here is not to shut down Squadlanes and kinda-but-not-really hide the map layout. OWI needs to make early point rushes unviable through in-game mechanics. (Or give us better and fun tools to defend against it?)

Do I know how to do that exactly? No. Maybe bigger cap ranges for backcaps? Maybe faster backcaps? I really don't know. All I know is that just not telling people the map layout is not the solution.
Legutóbb szerkesztette: Tim | w4rum; 2021. szept. 10., 16:55
Tim | w4rum eredeti hozzászólása:
Onimaho eredeti hozzászólása:

Except with squadlanes this isn't what happens. It is people rushing each others 2nd or 3rd cap...which is the exact same issue that AAS has.

Disagree with your assessment.

I can see your point. Early point rushes are a big problem with AAS and knowing the RAAS layout makes early point rushes viable in RAAS as well. My point still stands: This was always possible in RAAS but hidden behind an unnecessarily high amount of manual labor to research the layout.

Early point rushes are a problem that stems from how AAS and RAAS works. Not because Squadlanes tells you how RAAS works. The fix that we need here is not to shut down Squadlanes and kinda-but-not-really hide the map layout. OWI needs to make early point rushes unviable through in-game mechanics. (Or give us better and fun tools to defend against it?)

Do I know how to do that exactly? No. Maybe bigger cap ranges for backcaps? Maybe faster backcaps? I really don't know. All I know is that just not telling people the map layout is not the solution.
Nah I definitely agree that the game mode needs to be reworked so it continues to stop the rush meta.

But, the point is squadlanes is only making the problem worse not better for RAAS. More players being aware of the lanes isn't a good thing because it makes the situation worse.
Onimaho eredeti hozzászólása:
But, the point is squadlanes is only making the problem worse not better for RAAS. More players being aware of the lanes isn't a good thing because it makes the situation worse.

On a pragmatic level, yes, you're right. Everyone knowing the map layout intensifies the already existing problem of early point rushes.

But I think that from a fairness perspective, it's better that everyone has access to the data than just a few people that put in an unreasonable amount of work.

I think this is a bit of a "It gets worse before it gets better" scenario. Hopefully this accelerates OWI's plans to counter early game rushes.

With Squadlanes it's similar to other multiplayer games where, from time to time, someone discovers a mechanic or strategy that breaks the meta. If you dislike the resulting new meta, does it really make sense to blame the person that discovered / published the stronger strategy or should you rather pressure the devs to fix their game?

In my opinion, if simply knowing how the game works "breaks" a gamemode, then the fault lies solely in the gamemode's design, not the availability of the knowledge.

But I get your point and I see how being affected by early game rushes is frustrating. Rolling back Squadlanes, however, is not the correct solution in my opinion. (Ignoring the fact that that's impossible by now because it's been online and open-source for months.)
Legutóbb szerkesztette: Tim | w4rum; 2021. szept. 10., 17:18
Tim | w4rum eredeti hozzászólása:
Do I know how to do that exactly? No. Maybe bigger cap ranges for backcaps? Maybe faster backcaps? I really don't know. All I know is that just not telling people the map layout is not the solution.
Its really where there needs to be much more varied back caps on a lot of maps. Yeho is a good example of this where you will always know that the second cap for the southern team is on the airfield or that the 2nd/3rd cap for the northern team is usually around the Petrivka region. This makes both sides extremely susceptible to early game helicopter rushes.
Aegmar eredeti hozzászólása:
Im still for completely scrapping RAAS and AAS and making a better Territory Control gamemode (with fewer but bigger hexes) the new standard...
I'm on board with this. RAAS/AAS is oversaturated anyway
wow, here we are almost a year later and pretty much every map at the beginning of the match invariably theres always that one guy in command chat "enlightening" everyone where all the flags are going to go. Its all so tiresome. Program the game to actually be random or just remove the game mode altogether.
swatbot26 eredeti hozzászólása:
Zylfrax791 eredeti hozzászólása:
wow, here we are almost a year later and pretty much every map at the beginning of the match invariably theres always that one guy in command chat "enlightening" everyone where all the flags are going to go. Its all so tiresome. Program the game to actually be random or just remove the game mode altogether.
I don't understand people's distaste for AAS. As far as I understand people's issue was with first flag rushing, but all you gotta do is keep a Squad back or an armor squad and you're set. Aside from that, most of the match goes the same minus the need for Squadlanes
It's subjective, but I honestly think it's because the people who don't like it know what the community has become, and that can of worms has been discussed over and over.
I'm not even trying to be insulting, I'm serious. Most, not all...most of the 'new' players that came-in over a year ago with V1 STILL don't know how to play the game in a way that isn't just shooting anything that moves and running into the fray on their own. They just can not wrap their head around AAS, let alone how the game works in general.

I can fault them for a lot of their ignorance and open stupidity, but I can't fault them for struggling with AAS/RAAS. They're going into this game with false expectations, and so they're constantly getting slammed as a result when the reality of the situation sets in.
To accommodate this problem, it'd be better just to put more thought into fleshing out invasion. It won't fix the community shift we've been seeing, but I've seen that it's far easier for these guys to understand as opposed to AAS/RAAS

Tl;dr: These players don't have the brainpower for AAS, & trying to teach them is like herding cats. The 'new' players that came in with V1 are NOT the same 'new' players that came in with V9(Alpha 9). These guys don't want to learn, they just want to get into the action as soon as possible. (Not to mention how frequently they ragequit upon the first death of the match)
Legutóbb szerkesztette: the_moon_wolfy; 2022. febr. 6., 16:03
Zylfrax791 eredeti hozzászólása:
wow, here we are almost a year later and pretty much every map at the beginning of the match invariably theres always that one guy in command chat "enlightening" everyone where all the flags are going to go. Its all so tiresome. Program the game to actually be random or just remove the game mode altogether.
Yep it's almost a year later and her you are coming to an old post and it's not going to go away. Squadlanes is a good tool to use made by Captain to help new players.
Legutóbb szerkesztette: RackEmUp187; 2022. febr. 6., 16:51
RackEmUp187 eredeti hozzászólása:
Zylfrax791 eredeti hozzászólása:
wow, here we are almost a year later and pretty much every map at the beginning of the match invariably theres always that one guy in command chat "enlightening" everyone where all the flags are going to go. Its all so tiresome. Program the game to actually be random or just remove the game mode altogether.
Yep it's almost a year later and her you are coming to an old post and it's not going to go away. Squadlanes is a good tool to use made by Captain to help new players.
Being passive aggressive helps no one
RackEmUp187 eredeti hozzászólása:
and it's not going to go away.

Map Layer System Overhaul Phase 2 when implemented will relegate the cheater website to the dustbin.
Zylfrax791 eredeti hozzászólása:
RackEmUp187 eredeti hozzászólása:
and it's not going to go away.

Map Layer System Overhaul Phase 2 when implemented will relegate the cheater website to the dustbin.
Where does it say that? Phase 2 layers will work the same as they do now. Only how layers are chosen/created will change
The only way to really solve the problem is redesigning the map and layers. That's just not possible at the moment with the current road map it seems, and were unlikely to see any major changes soon.

A good example of proper layers is Assault on Grozny (Project reality). There are 3 different layers with the Standard layer containing a multitute of possible cap points. There isn't any automated way around remaking the maps for better gameplay unless OWI doesn't mind throwing caps on barren pieces of land.

Link to standard assault on groz image
https://imgur.com/a/mkKHdtv
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Közzétéve: 2021. márc. 6., 23:45
Hozzászólások: 120