Marksman/bullet damage/Faction dmg

[AngryStoner]

Hello,
Just a couple things i've noticed. I like to think im a decent sniper, and I really enjoy playing as marksman. That being said there's a few things that i've noticed that could use some polishing (perhaps already known/being fixed or implemented)
1, Bullet Damage. Being an American marksman, it feels like when you hit someone it doesn't really effect them like they got hit by a sniper round, but it feels like you're hitting them with rifle rounds.

Which, in closer quarters is alright I suppose and does balance out with rifleman, but at long ranges its very hard and almost futile to try and snipe targets from good distances. it seems to take 2-3 hits at long ranges, minus a head shot. Im not familiar with what kind of weapon the US marksman has, but it feels like it should have a much larger punch. Coupled with its reduced magazine count, it makes it hard to use for its proper purpose, which is for scouting/taking down targets at range.

Most of the maps are rich in cover, so hitting a target at 400+M 3 times is very challenging. Which isn't a bad thing, but makes the class feel less useful as the same can be accomplished with an m4 w/ acog scope. They could balance the Marksmans damage increase by reducing its effectiveness close range by reducing its hipfire accuracy + longer sighting period. Or perhaps in the long run there could be unlocks as you level to higher calibre weapons to earn. I think that would be awesome, have realistic weapon choices that unlock with leveling that particular class. The same applies to the other factions, but even more due to my next point

2. Faction damage. I know i'm not alone on this one as many in game say the same thing - Russian and Militas bullets feel nerfed compared to americans. I would expect roughly - if not slightly more damage due to the types of weapons they use and to make use of Americas sweet body armor.

[Dr. Livesey]

A Marksman is NOT a "sniper".
It goes like this. Riflemans -> Marksman -> Sniper
With accuracy/range increasing from left to right. A marksman takes more careful and ranged shots, but Sniper is a different category again. I'm pretty sure I've seen in the 'what will be added' thread that a Sniper will NOT be added.

So next, the bullet dmg seems like a rifle? It IS a rifle. A marksman might use a 7.62 or even a 5.56. It's not the calibur that's special, it's just the optic or the mechanism in the rifle to ensure accurate tragectory. It's not a 50 cal anti-materia rifle or even a .308. If it does the same damage as the other rifles- that's accurate.

As for 3 shots required? Maybe if you shoot the arms. I find 1 or 2 bullets with any weapon in the game does the job. 1 to the head is obviously dead.

The Marksman like a rifle with ACOG? Yeah... I mean that's just about the definition of a Marksman anyway. Is the optic zoomed a bit further? If so, that justifies the difference in class name.

Russian weapons nerfed? I've never noticed that. Maybe you are just missing more without the red dot sight.

And you actually mentioned something key also to Marksman: Scouting. That isn't about killing your target, it's about SEEING them. You are meant to be talking to your team about the enemy, not wasting them from massive range with single shots to their pinkie finger. The optic forfills this role.

[AngryStoner]

Originally posted by Shoot.At.This:

A Marksman is NOT a "sniper".
It goes like this. Riflemans -> Marksman -> Sniper
With accuracy/range increasing from left to right. A marksman takes more careful and ranged shots, but Sniper is a different category again. I'm pretty sure I've seen in the 'what will be added' thread that a Sniper will NOT be added.

So next, the bullet dmg seems like a rifle? It IS a rifle. A marksman might use a 7.62 or even a 5.56. It's not the calibur that's special, it's just the optic or the mechanism in the rifle to ensure accurate tragectory. It's not a 50 cal anti-materia rifle or even a .308. If it does the same damage as the other rifles- that's accurate.

As for 3 shots required? Maybe if you shoot the arms. I find 1 or 2 bullets with any weapon in the game does the job. 1 to the head is obviously dead.

The Marksman like a rifle with ACOG? Yeah... I mean that's just about the definition of a Marksman anyway. Is the optic zoomed a bit further? If so, that justifies the difference in class name.

Russian weapons nerfed? I've never noticed that. Maybe you are just missing more without the red dot sight.

And you actually mentioned something key also to Marksman: Scouting. That isn't about killing your target, it's about SEEING them. You are meant to be talking to your team about the enemy, not wasting them from massive range with single shots to their pinkie finger. The optic forfills this role.

Well for a rifle that looks like it would pack more punch then an m4 it shoots weak. I've shot them in the chest twice and no downs, and thats as American. The russian/Militas weapons are weak, and I know I dont miss in those cases because in the time that I can shoot an american in the head with his back turned point black he can usually find the time to turn around and one shot me. Im not the only one to know this, and when I voice it everybody agrees that the russian weapons are too weak. The marksman should be able to deal damage at range, is what im saying. Maybe alittle more then a rifle otherwise its completely useless. Squad leaders tell people not to go marksman as it is because the class is otherwise useless. someone with a scope could do the same job, if not better then marksman making the role obsolete. especially with its lack of ammo or punch. It feels almost weaker then the m4. its generally accepted the sights for the militas/russians are off aswell.

[Capt Facepalm Picard]

Originally posted by AngryStoner:

Originally posted by Shoot.At.This:

A Marksman is NOT a "sniper".
It goes like this. Riflemans -> Marksman -> Sniper
With accuracy/range increasing from left to right. A marksman takes more careful and ranged shots, but Sniper is a different category again. I'm pretty sure I've seen in the 'what will be added' thread that a Sniper will NOT be added.

So next, the bullet dmg seems like a rifle? It IS a rifle. A marksman might use a 7.62 or even a 5.56. It's not the calibur that's special, it's just the optic or the mechanism in the rifle to ensure accurate tragectory. It's not a 50 cal anti-materia rifle or even a .308. If it does the same damage as the other rifles- that's accurate.

As for 3 shots required? Maybe if you shoot the arms. I find 1 or 2 bullets with any weapon in the game does the job. 1 to the head is obviously dead.

The Marksman like a rifle with ACOG? Yeah... I mean that's just about the definition of a Marksman anyway. Is the optic zoomed a bit further? If so, that justifies the difference in class name.

Russian weapons nerfed? I've never noticed that. Maybe you are just missing more without the red dot sight.

And you actually mentioned something key also to Marksman: Scouting. That isn't about killing your target, it's about SEEING them. You are meant to be talking to your team about the enemy, not wasting them from massive range with single shots to their pinkie finger. The optic forfills this role.

Well for a rifle that looks like it would pack more punch then an m4 it shoots weak. I've shot them in the chest twice and no downs, and thats as American. The russian/Militas weapons are weak, and I know I dont miss in those cases because in the time that I can shoot an american in the head with his back turned point black he can usually find the time to turn around and one shot me. Im not the only one to know this, and when I voice it everybody agrees that the russian weapons are too weak. The marksman should be able to deal damage at range, is what im saying. Maybe alittle more then a rifle otherwise its completely useless. Squad leaders tell people not to go marksman as it is because the class is otherwise useless. someone with a scope could do the same job, if not better then marksman making the role obsolete. especially with its lack of ammo or punch. It feels almost weaker then the m4. its generally accepted the sights for the militas/russians are off aswell.

More so in the lines of broken hit registry more than anything else.

I've noticed since patch 8.8 or 8.9, players on any factions are able to take in 6 bullets to the chest/back from an AK/M4 10 meters away and are still able to turn and return fire. Same issue with the markman rifles not being able to kill kill the target with more than 2 shots to the chest/back regardless of distance. This issue doesn't happen everytime but regularly enough for it to be a noticeable issue.

Prior to the issue above, i have had no problems in 550+ hours in terms of killing anybody with 2 shots to the chest/back with an AK/M4 or 2 shots to the chest/back with a marksman rifle at any distance.

I've also noticed getting shot and having the sound effect and screen effect come in to play only to disappear a few seconds later and if im encountering this while being a medic...i'm unable to bandage/heal myself because for some reason i'm still at full health as if i did not get shot.

At first i thought this was a latency issue but it's clear it's not. This is all happening on green 10 ping to 150 ping servers.

A number of other people have noticed this and voiced out while playing the game over the last few weeks.

[matolife10]

marksman has more damage than other rifles it allmost oneshots person that is 100-200m if you hit him in upper body. if he doesn't start bandaging within 5 seconds he'll bleed out. marksman has low damage if you shoot tharget that is less than 100m away and needs around 2-3 hits so shooting targets with marksman in CQB is bad idea it deals roughly same damage as pistol. so take your pistol out.

@capt facepalm if you spray and pray ofcourse it happens.. if you shoot the target it will go down (except if u have high ping) i had no problem with what you have and i mostly one bulet one kill anyway (headshot) and have never seen anything like you are describing.

if it looks like you have been hit and you actualy werent.. this is different tick rates but enemy who shot you on his screen he missed you.

[Capt Facepalm Picard]

Originally posted by |FA| mato:

@capt facepalm if you spray and pray ofcourse it happens.. if you shoot the target it will go down (except if u have high ping) i had no problem with what you have and i mostly one bulet one kill anyway (headshot) and have never seen anything like you are describing.

At 10 meters, spray and pray?

Haha ignorant and blind.

[SGM Plumley]

As for the actual specifics on the weapons - U.S. "marksman" rifle is a M110 or SR 25, esentially the same thing just different designations, and these are both chambered in the 7.62x51mm NATO caliber. Basically identical to the .308 Winchester. The U.S. Military uses the M118 Long Range cartridge in these rifles which is a 175 grain projectile moving at an average of 2,600 fps muzzle velociity and delivering ~2,600 pounds of muzzle energy. This caliber is known as a great "man killer". A center mass hit out to 500m without armor will absolutely take down a human with 1 round. At 1000m it still has more energy than a .357 magnum at the muzzle (point blank range) and therefore is still very reliable for a single center mass "kill shot". The Russian/ militia / Insurgent forces use the SVD Drangunov variant of rifle. These are chambered in 7.62x54mmR which is very very similar. A standard loading for 7.62x54r is a 150-180 grain bullet moving at 2,600-2,8000 fps respectively resluting in 2,600-2,700 pounds of muzzle energry. That makes both calibers about identical in terms of performance and "1 hit" reliabilty at equal distances. So these should easily drop a "player" at those distances but taking into effect the U.S. and Russian forces armor it is understandable that it might nessesitate a 2nd well placed hit. Militia and Insurgent forces agreeably should go down with one center mass hit at proper range. I've not played as marksman so I can not speak to how well Squad replicates this.

The Russian, Militia, and Insurgent force's rifles have 2 different chamberings. the AK74 and like variants use the 5.45x39mm round using projectles ranging from 50-60 grains at velocities of ~2,900 fps, resulting in ~1,000 pounds of muzzle energy. The other platfrom is the AKM and variants (AMD65) which is chambered in the classic 7.62x39mm. This uses projectiles ranging from a standard 123 grain up to 154 grain delivered at velocities of ~2,300 fps. Ballistically speaking, the 7.62x39mm hits with roughly 400-500 more pounds of energy resulting in more trauma transfered to the target at similar distances. This is why in Squad you will generally notice ~2 good body shots from the AKM platform will drop a "player" whereas the 5.45x39mm and 5.56x45mm will take about 3-4 rounds. Another one of the rifles in use by I believe the Militia or Insurgents (can't remember which) is the H&K G3. This also uses the 7.62x51mm but generally a 150 grain bullet from a slightly shorter barrel resulting in a less energy imparted to the target. The U.S. force's rifles are chambered in the standard 5.56x45mm NATO. The U.S. military's standard loading is the 62 grain XM855 (SS109) steel core round traveling at ~3,100 fps delivering roughly 1,300 pounds of muzzle energy. So the "main" rifles for all sides do about the same in terms of "damage".

It has to be considered however, that almost all of these bullets are of the FMJ or Full Metal Jacket style, save for the U.S. M118 Long Range (175 grain 7.62x51mm NATO) which is an OTM or Open Tip Match. FMJ bullets do not have what is known as "projectile upset" which is when the bullet mushrooms or expands (like a hollow point). OTM bullets have a slight bullet upset but do not classify as a "hollow point". The open tip is for better accuracy. An expanding bullet will impart more trauma to the target due to what is commonly reffered to as "energy dump" meaning that the projectile significantly bleeds off speed inside the target resulting in hydrostatic shock which is what actually incapacitates or "kills" the target. In order to achive hydrostatic shock without the use of a hollow point bullet, a cartridge must depend on its bullet's mass and speed to impart the energy. That is why heavier bullets at slower speeds will still have this happen (i.e. the 7.62x51mm, 7.62x54mmR, and 7.62x39mm) whereas the faster lighter bullets (5.56x45MM and 5.45x39mm) usually burn through the target very fast and impart minimal "damage". The use of FMJ bullets is due to the Geneva and Hague Conventions agreements for not using ammunition that is intended to maim or further injure the target.

Hopefully tis gives you a better understanding of why the "damage" figures are what they are.

[BukkakeRanger]

If i remember correctly, the Makrs rifle is an AR-10 platform. You can chamber any weapon platform for multiple calibers, but the AR-10 platform is a .308 caliber typically. same with the G3A3 which is also a .308, there is neglible difference between caliber in game when it comes to damage. Which is why no one should play marksan, take an optic rifle and you'll have the same lethality with more ammo, and better close quarters ability.

[Rollerlock]

Bottom line, this game needs to be caliber-specific to damage, not class or whatever. Optics dont to anything but aid in precision. Soneofabitch its hard for me to listen to gamers talk about marksmanship and ballistics. Please, do some reading. A 7.62 NATO 155 or 175gr projectile smashing into your chest cavity is going to to an awful lot of terminal damage no matter what gun its fired from (save differences in barrel length.) Likewise, an M4A1 carbine firing a 5.56x45 62gr EPR round is going to have the same terminal performance as a MK46 SAW (why must we shoot people 6 times with a SAW to kill them in this game?) Caliber is caliber and should be reflected that way in-game.