Nakalim Feedback (opinions appreciated)

[Zlorfik [CH/BY]]

So, ever since the Nakalim got their big overhaul they have gone from an aimless, boring faction to an interesting one with drive... and power... much power. I've been playing game after game with them now and i don't see how i could possibly lose.

Let's look at some things they get:

• 2 tech eras researched
  
• 3 advanced systems to awaken
  
• Access to small combat hulls
  
• Access to mid game ship modules
  
• Insane influence spread

These things combined make the Nakalim unbeatable. In any diplomatic status but war, the Nakalim will gobble up your system for themselves or the Academy. In war, you are at an immediate disadvantage given the Nakalim essentially start with 4 systems to produce small hull ships with mid game weaponry from. The only thing you can try to do is to ally them in order to slow down influence zones enough. But that's a 3rd ring tech that the Nakalim player doesn't have to agree to.

One other thing i could think of is a pacifist forcing peace/alliance, but even then the Nakalim will have enough influence to keep going back to cold war repeatedly. I feel like the only faction with a sliver of an edge over them may be the Umbral Choir, since they can't really be converted and their fleets & sanctuaries are hidden.

I've done some multiplayer testing with a friend, me playing Nakalim and him playing other factions in a duel setting and preparing him that i will come for him violently. Even war focused factions such as Hissho, Cravers or Vodyani stood no chance.

Does anybody know of a way to stop a Nakalim player? I would be happy to play a match with anybody who has a thesis on how to beat them.

[Winter]

I agree in that the UC is their only real competition. The (much, much needed) overhaul made absolute *BEASTS* out of them. Even the UC, though, has to race the stealth techs and multi-planet system sanctuaries to stay ahead of the Nakalim's cloaking detection. Their start with T2 anti-cloaking lets them detect any initial UC ships, and any UC occupied systems with less than 2 Sanctuary planets. The Nakalim science onus is their only balancing mechanic, and that's not hard to overcome.

[ZumZoom]

Yeah, last time I played it was pretty annoying how OP and aggressive they were. Definitely overcompensated to appease the whiners.

[ninakoru]

The 50% science is a hard pill to swallow. This effect is multiplicative, so no matter what you do, they have a hard time getting science right. They get the -50% FIDS from planets unless Temples, also they convert science into influence.

As an opposing player, well, I guess your best bet is to stall them out until you can get the upper hand in science and win by superior tech ships/science victory.

The awakened systems can unbalance the thing a bit. As an opponent you want to get these systems just to deny the Nakalim to awaken them. Also, destroy their scouts when possible to make their relic retrieval more annoying.

Much like starting with Voldyani , Nakalim does have high RNG depending the Awaken-able system positions.

This game is not well balanced towards multiplayer, but all factions have a fair shot on average, for a more balanced multiplayer experience I would recommend ESG mod, that was designed for that.

Lastly one of the game imbalances as a whole is how industry overpower all other resources. Economy (dust) is broken due to the inflation/market implementation, and how fast teching does not provide enough "free stuff" and researching fast ends up stockpiling things you need to build with... industry.

[Amaranthion]

Speaking of which and I hope this isn't considered as a change of topic but does anyone know how to mod Nakalim Temple & Cathedral bonuses? My solution would be to downgrade their OP. I've looked through DLC4 content but it so far it looks hardcoded.

[Zlorfik [CH/BY]]

Originally posted by ninakoru:

The 50% science is a hard pill to swallow. This effect is multiplicative, so no matter what you do, they have a hard time getting science right. They get the -50% FIDS from planets unless Temples, also they convert science into influence.

Well, then how come my science production outdid that of competitors 50 turns in with 0 relics on science production? Some of the Nakalim unique science buildings really make up for the -50% science if you rack up your relic count, which is easy to do and your priority regardless.

Originally posted by ninakoru:

As an opposing player, well, I guess your best bet is to stall them out until you can get the upper hand in science and win by superior tech ships/science victory.

How long does that take you on average? It takes 5 researches to be on par with the Nakalim in terms of hulls & weapons. If you go only for those 5, you have no basis for producing or researching quickly. So realistically, we'll talk about 7 researches. With an estimated average of 4 turns per tech, that still takes you 28 turns. And then you haven't built a ship yet. By that time, the Nakalim have their first strike & invasion force more than ready to go, ready to take your system from you. And believe me, if I'm playing the Nakalim, I will take it. After all, I need more relics, right?

Originally posted by ninakoru:

The awakened systems can unbalance the thing a bit. As an opponent you want to get these systems just to deny the Nakalim to awaken them. Also, destroy their scouts when possible to make their relic retrieval more annoying.

As an opponent, you don't know which systems are awakened systems - at least not before they settled them and you'll need a sleeper to know that a system is awakened (unless you observe it being settled immediately). Scouts are strong enough to take on 2 enemy ships in the early to mid game, simply due to the tech advantage and how powerful the Nakalim scout hull is. So while yes, you can try to make relic retrieval more annoying this way, any seasoned Nakalim player will simply show up with their invasion fleet, take the system for themselves or the Academy and use the invasion fleet to pick up the relic. After all, not every invasion is over in 1 turn and manpower does need to be replenished.

Originally posted by ninakoru:

Much like starting with Voldyani , Nakalim does have high RNG depending the Awaken-able system positions.

While there is certainly some RNG with Nakalim awakened systems, I don't think it matters muchregarding positions. You can equip ships with 3 Hyperium engines and get a speed 16 Scout that gets places quickly even off star lanes. You can cross an entire galaxy in a few turns that way. And you'll be ready for that on turn 5. The bigger RNG factor is the systems you get. I was unlucky on my current run and got 2 systems with 2 planets and one with 3 planets, all pretty cold and not industrious. But that did not slow me down either. It just didn't accelerate me like crazy.

Originally posted by ninakoru:

This game is not well balanced towards multiplayer, but all factions have a fair shot on average, for a more balanced multiplayer experience I would recommend ESG mod, that was designed for that.

If all factions had a fair shot on average, I would love to put that to the test in vanilla multiplayer with Nakalim vs any other faction.

Originally posted by ninakoru:

Lastly one of the game imbalances as a whole is how industry overpower all other resources. Economy (dust) is broken due to the inflation/market implementation, and how fast teching does not provide enough "free stuff" and researching fast ends up stockpiling things you need to build with... industry.

Yes, I agree. Not only that, but the nature of growing exponentially is also a downside to that, making industry exponentially stronger and the AI exponentially weaker.

[Zlorfik [CH/BY]]

Originally posted by Amaranthion:

Speaking of which and I hope this isn't considered as a change of topic but does anyone know how to mod Nakalim Temple & Cathedral bonuses? My solution would be to downgrade their OP. I've looked through DLC4 content but it so far it looks hardcoded.

Personally, I don't know but I think reducing the number of awakened systems is probably a smarter approach. I believe temple and cathedral are good the way they are. They provide a unique feel and gameplay to the Nakalim. They are also not free and need to be constructed first (sure temples are quick, but cost a relic). I hope someone can answer your question though.

[Amaranthion]

Originally posted by Zlorfik CH/BY:

Originally posted by Amaranthion:

Speaking of which and I hope this isn't considered as a change of topic but does anyone know how to mod Nakalim Temple & Cathedral bonuses? My solution would be to downgrade their OP. I've looked through DLC4 content but it so far it looks hardcoded.

Personally, I don't know but I think reducing the number of awakened systems is probably a smarter approach. I believe temple and cathedral are good the way they are. They provide a unique feel and gameplay to the Nakalim. They are also not free and need to be constructed first (sure temples are quick, but cost a relic). I hope someone can answer your question though.

Thanks I believe that would be doable but I'm still curious as to where the placed these temple properties as I'm suspecting that they aren't modifiable through xml and I will need to request help to modify them otherwise. Your suggestion is viable though for sure.

[ninakoru]

Originally posted by Zlorfik CH/BY:

Well, then how come my science production outdid that of competitors 50 turns in with 0 relics on science production? Some of the Nakalim unique science buildings really make up for the -50% science if you rack up your relic count, which is easy to do and your priority regardless.

What competition, real players or vanilla AI? -50% planet FIDS on planets is no joke, that's usually from 7 to 10 less resources produced per population compared to others. You either use relics for temples to counter it and get some influence, or you save relics to boost your science. It compounds directly with your -50% science output.

Also forgot to mention Nakalim has another penalty with 25% less growth for outposts, both sent and produced by the outpost itself. Not as impactful as the other two penalties though.

How long does that take you on average? It takes 5 researches to be on par with the Nakalim in terms of hulls & weapons. If you go only for those 5, you have no basis for producing or researching quickly. So realistically, we'll talk about 7 researches. With an estimated average of 4 turns per tech, that still takes you 28 turns. And then you haven't built a ship yet. By that time, the Nakalim have their first strike & invasion force more than ready to go, ready to take your system from you. And believe me, if I'm playing the Nakalim, I will take it. After all, I need more relics, right?

That's all supposition.

Nakalim starts with the two first tiers researched, you don't get to choose and your first technology researched after that will take a while (usually 15-20 turns normal speed). Is true players will end up researching 75% of the first two tiers, but they get to choose what to prioritize and what to skip, you instead have a 50% penalty on science, a 50% penalty on planet FIDS, and you need to carefully choose between saving relics for science or fix your planets.

As an opponent, you don't know which systems are awakened systems - at least not before they settled them and you'll need a sleeper to know that a system is awakened (unless you observe it being settled immediately). Scouts are strong enough to take on 2 enemy ships in the early to mid game, simply due to the tech advantage and how powerful the Nakalim scout hull is. So while yes, you can try to make relic retrieval more annoying this way, any seasoned Nakalim player will simply show up with their invasion fleet, take the system for themselves or the Academy and use the invasion fleet to pick up the relic. After all, not every invasion is over in 1 turn and manpower does need to be replenished.

Is true the enemy will not know what systems are ready to be awakened, and once you do it is too late, that's my mistake. All comes to RNG and hopefully colonize an awakened system before Nakalim claims it I guess.

Yeah you can outfit an explorer ship to be somewhat military, still has less base health than an attacker, and if you do so, you need to skip on one engine to get two defense modules. That's a huge opportunity cost.

On the same point, if you want three engines, you cannot use that ship to probe curiosities, an essential part of early game to discover luxuries, strategic deposits, and free resources, maybe population, etc.

You do you make 350-400 industry ships early with all the penalties you have to deal with? You need basic improvements first at the very least, not to mention you will not get much manpower if you try to field an army early.

Nakalim play is a catch up game for the opposition, you start with a huge lead with technologies, and discovered systems, but you need to deal with all your penalties.

The true power of the Nakalim IMO is the academy interations, you can get tons of relics from the academy.

Anyways that is mostly theory, in my experience, I usually have better economy and tech with other races by midgame compared to the nakalim due to the strict penalties, I have no PVP experience to ensure Nakalim is fair enough in that environment, but I can see fielding an army too early to take a contundent first strike could lead to a quick death sentence, due to lack of empire preparation.

[Zlorfik [CH/BY]]

Originally posted by ninakoru:

Originally posted by Zlorfik CH/BY:

Well, then how come my science production outdid that of competitors 50 turns in with 0 relics on science production? Some of the Nakalim unique science buildings really make up for the -50% science if you rack up your relic count, which is easy to do and your priority regardless.

What competition, real players or vanilla AI? -50% planet FIDS on planets is no joke, that's usually from 7 to 10 less resources produced per population compared to others. You either use relics for temples to counter it and get some influence, or you save relics to boost your science. It compounds directly with your -50% science output.

Also forgot to mention Nakalim has another penalty with 25% less growth for outposts, both sent and produced by the outpost itself. Not as impactful as the other two penalties though.

Any planet with a pop immediately gets a temple built as 1st prio for me. There isn't really a case where I have -50% FIDS. It just doesn't happen. And again, for the science, you simply need to get the 2 Nakalim unique science techs and you're sorted for the rest of the game. Relics are for system planetary, empire and hero improvement. They just happen to have an effect while not alloted. As for your question: Real players and AI. As I stated in my post, I tested with a fairly competent friend in a duel setting to stop a Nakalim player. It's simply not possible.

As for your mention: -25% outpost growth doesn't matter. You don't really need to build colonizers so that will happen likely only for your starting coloniser ship. As Nakalim, you can invest your huge Influence into minor factions immediately, snatching them from other empires before they can get them. You can invade other empires' systems to expand your empire if you need more systems, though likely with the 3 free ones and the plenty of minor faction systems you get, you'll likely be over the cap already.

Originally posted by ninakoru:

How long does that take you on average? It takes 5 researches to be on par with the Nakalim in terms of hulls & weapons. If you go only for those 5, you have no basis for producing or researching quickly. So realistically, we'll talk about 7 researches. With an estimated average of 4 turns per tech, that still takes you 28 turns. And then you haven't built a ship yet. By that time, the Nakalim have their first strike & invasion force more than ready to go, ready to take your system from you. And believe me, if I'm playing the Nakalim, I will take it. After all, I need more relics, right?

That's all supposition.

Nakalim starts with the two first tiers researched, you don't get to choose and your first technology researched after that will take a while (usually 15-20 turns normal speed). Is true players will end up researching 75% of the first two tiers, but they get to choose what to prioritize and what to skip, you instead have a 50% penalty on science, a 50% penalty on planet FIDS, and you need to carefully choose between saving relics for science or fix your planets.

You're evading my question. How long does it take you with a non-Nakalim empire to research 7 techs, on average? Because unless you can do that in 15 turns, the Nakalim WILL have a military lead on you that you can't make up if you are their neighbour. Whether or not an empire gets to choose the first 2 ring techs is irrelevant. The Nakalim start with all of it and get the military capabilities of it straight out of the gate. By the time a Nakalim player gets behind on science, they have an unstoppable invasion force rolling. And as I pointed out before, if you actually cripple yourself with a -50% FID, that's very much a you problem. There are enough relics to outfit every single planet you'll ever conquer with more relics than you can do anything with. The rule is simple: 4/5 planet systems --> invade/annex. 1-3 planet systems --> gift to Academy. Given the distribution of systems in any given galaxy, you'll be gifting more systems to the academy than you take. Between the relics you get from Isyander for doing so and the relics you get from exploration/quests, there is simply an abundance of relics.

Originally posted by ninakoru:

As an opponent, you don't know which systems are awakened systems - at least not before they settled them and you'll need a sleeper to know that a system is awakened (unless you observe it being settled immediately). Scouts are strong enough to take on 2 enemy ships in the early to mid game, simply due to the tech advantage and how powerful the Nakalim scout hull is. So while yes, you can try to make relic retrieval more annoying this way, any seasoned Nakalim player will simply show up with their invasion fleet, take the system for themselves or the Academy and use the invasion fleet to pick up the relic. After all, not every invasion is over in 1 turn and manpower does need to be replenished.

Is true the enemy will not know what systems are ready to be awakened, and once you do it is too late, that's my mistake. All comes to RNG and hopefully colonize an awakened system before Nakalim claims it I guess.

Even if they do, it takes only a small time until the Nakalim invasion force is ready to roll in with tanks and take it off your fingers. By turn 50 the Nakalim will own those systems and there's nothing you can do about it.

Originally posted by ninakoru:

Yeah you can outfit an explorer ship to be somewhat military, still has less base health than an attacker, and if you do so, you need to skip on one engine to get two defense modules. That's a huge opportunity cost.

On the same point, if you want three engines, you cannot use that ship to probe curiosities, an essential part of early game to discover luxuries, strategic deposits, and free resources, maybe population, etc.

You can outfit an explorer with 2x missiles or with missiles and missile swarm. All you need at that range is a shield against lasers who may counter you. Opponent missiles are too low tech to eliminate you before they are eliminated. Lasers/Beams are countered by the strong shield and point defense is again outgunned by the stronger and potentially swarmed missiles. 2 weapons, 1 shield, 1 engine, 1 probe. You can not defend against it until you are on equal tech footing.

Regarding strapping on only engines to an explorer: Given the aim of the ship is to awaken a system, which will be immediately colonised when successful, that's the ship's sole mission. Fly past everything until you reach the awakened system. Awaken it. Retrofit to a regular or combat scout. You start with 2 explorers and a hero, all capable of doing that task. The first awakened system is always in your constellation. That can be the hero's job. The explorers can probe curiosities until end of turn 4, starting turn 5 in the home system. On turn 5, you get engines on your explorers and wheeee, off they go, not stopping until they get to the other 2 awakened systems. The hero meanwhile can do probing work at home with his 2 probe slots, very soon upgraded to titanium for that per turn full refill. The religious law meanwhile gets your cashflow going so you can easily afford some strategics for better engines/probes/retrofits.

Originally posted by ninakoru:

You do you make 350-400 industry ships early with all the penalties you have to deal with? You need basic improvements first at the very least, not to mention you will not get much manpower if you try to field an army early.

Yeah, I usually build 1-2 industry improvements before kicking into shipyard mode. You don't need 350-400 industry to start ship building. And again, there are no penalties to deal with unless you specifically shoot yourself in the foot by not building temples right away. As for manpower, I have to have a closer look on it next time, but so far i never had any issues putting manpower modules on all my ships and have them instantly full of tanks the moment they finished construction. Just remember, an awakened system gets +100 FIDSI for 10 turns. Times 3 this is 3000 FIDSI, meaning 300 manpower just from that alone, not to mention the +100 per turn manpower you'll be cashing in from minor factions starting turn 6+.

Originally posted by ninakoru:

Nakalim play is a catch up game for the opposition, you start with a huge lead with technologies, and discovered systems, but you need to deal with all your penalties.

The true power of the Nakalim IMO is the academy interations, you can get tons of relics from the academy.

This is precisely my point: There is no catching up to the Nakalim if the Nakalim play their cards right. Yes, Academy interactions are powerful, but the most relics you'll get are from invading systems and handing them over to old buddy Isyander and the faction quest.

Originally posted by ninakoru:

Anyways that is mostly theory, in my experience, I usually have better economy and tech with other races by midgame compared to the nakalim due to the strict penalties, I have no PVP experience to ensure Nakalim is fair enough in that environment, but I can see fielding an army too early to take a contundent first strike could lead to a quick death sentence, due to lack of empire preparation.

As I said in my post, I made some tests against a player and despite having a huge ship quantity advantage over me, he still lost as the Hissho, who not only have strong exploration and small hulls, but also an incentive for a military gameplay, strong economy and invasion defense.

I am always happy to put your doubts to the test though. This is not a challenge, but an invitation. Please prove me wrong :)

[Zlorfik [CH/BY]]

Just as a hint of Nakalim power...
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3388060202
I even made a bunch of stupid mistakes and end up here. Top Industry system is at 289 industry per turn. Got lucky with an UC neighbour and a 2nd awakened system in the starting constellation, but even without that I could be in a similar spot.

[ninakoru]

Originally posted by Zlorfik CH/BY:

Any planet with a pop immediately gets a temple built as 1st prio for me. There isn't really a case where I have -50% FIDS. It just doesn't happen.
...
They just happen to have an effect while not alloted.

Oh, you're probably playing vanilla Nakalim then.

In both Community Fixes Mod and The prepatch preview versions are several fixes for nakalim:

In current official, temple relics also count for the special science buildings, this is a clear bug, in the fixed versions, only unassigned relics count for it. No wonder you're spamming temples without any consideration.

On the other side, some of the empire relic effects and effect upgrades don't work properly on vanilla.

There's also a major bug with laser weapons, making them far worse than expected.

Also, if you want to measure against AI, I recommend you "ENFER Reloaded" mod, does make a huge difference on AI decision making and development.

You're evading my question. How long does it take you with a non-Nakalim empire to research 7 techs, on average? Because unless you can do that in 15 turns, the Nakalim WILL have a military lead on you that you can't make up if you are their neighbor.

I'm not evading anything, I can't give you a proper response if I don't experience the thing myself. Playing Nakalim I never went into "full war mode" as early as turn 15, is usually around turn 25 the earliest, all I'm saying is that being behind in number of techs doesn't mean much if you build what you recently researched, yes with the Nakalim you get to choose, but with other races you will get the necessary techs in time the moment you need to build the things associated with them, so is not that big of a deal.

Anyways I see your points but this discussion is moot if you're playing a bugged version of the Nakalim. Is sad the current official version is also a "bugged version", the fixes are up in prepatch preview more than 8 months ago but the thing is abandoned right now.

[Zlorfik [CH/BY]]

Originally posted by ninakoru:

Originally posted by Zlorfik CH/BY:

Any planet with a pop immediately gets a temple built as 1st prio for me. There isn't really a case where I have -50% FIDS. It just doesn't happen.
...
They just happen to have an effect while not alloted.

Oh, you're probably playing vanilla Nakalim then.

In both Community Fixes Mod and The prepatch preview versions are several fixes for nakalim:

In current official, temple relics also count for the special science buildings, this is a clear bug, in the fixed versions, only unassigned relics count for it. No wonder you're spamming temples without any consideration.

On the other side, some of the empire relic effects and effect upgrades don't work properly on vanilla.

There's also a major bug with laser weapons, making them far worse than expected.

Also, if you want to measure against AI, I recommend you "ENFER Reloaded" mod, does make a huge difference on AI decision making and development.

I'll have to double check, i thought i was on the patch preview. Maybe i accidentally switched out of it when i resolved my cloud save game bug. But yes, obviously i play vanilla. Otherwise i would have stated so. I had already had major disagreements with changes the community fixes did in the past that i gave up on them. If the point of community fixes is to wash down anything that makes a faction unique, i may as well play Civilization.

Originally posted by ninakoru:

You're evading my question. How long does it take you with a non-Nakalim empire to research 7 techs, on average? Because unless you can do that in 15 turns, the Nakalim WILL have a military lead on you that you can't make up if you are their neighbor.

I'm not evading anything, I can't give you a proper response if I don't experience the thing myself. Playing Nakalim I never went into "full war mode" as early as turn 15, is usually around turn 25 the earliest, all I'm saying is that being behind in number of techs doesn't mean much if you build what you recently researched, yes with the Nakalim you get to choose, but with other races you will get the necessary techs in time the moment you need to build the things associated with them, so is not that big of a deal.

Anyways I see your points but this discussion is moot if you're playing a bugged version of the Nakalim. Is sad the current official version is also a "bugged version", the fixes are up in prepatch preview more than 8 months ago but the thing is abandoned right now.

You seem to misunderstand. I'm not asking you how long it takes for you to do anything with the Nakalim. I'm asking you how long it takes you with any other faction to research 7 techs: 4 first ring, 3 second ring techs. It is a very simple question. Yes, it varies playthrough by playthrough, faction to faction - i'm looking for an estimated average. It doesn't matter which techs are picked. But 5-7 techs is the bare minimum to fight the Nakalim on even ground.

In any case, at turn 30, you look easily at a 14CP fleet of Nakalim invasion ready ships with 2nd tier armaments, more if they get lucky. If you can beat that back to the point of a stalemate with any other faction, i will rest my case. For this, research penalties of the Nakalim dont matter. For this, you can spend all your relics on temples. Because this fuels your relic income by invading systems and giving them to the academy. The only difference the patch would make is that the Nakalim owned number of systems will be lower in order to keep relic spending to a minimum. That also means, more invasions will result in gifts to Isyander which in turn means more relics to lie unused. So even the patch will not change that.

[ninakoru]

Originally posted by Zlorfik CH/BY:

I'll have to double check, i thought i was on the patch preview. Maybe i accidentally switched out of it when i resolved my cloud save game bug. But yes, obviously i play vanilla. Otherwise i would have stated so. I had already had major disagreements with changes the community fixes did in the past that i gave up on them. If the point of community fixes is to wash down anything that makes a faction unique, i may as well play Civilization.

I think you're confusing Community Fixes with ESG. Community fixes are all bug fixing, not even consistency changes, most of the changes are on prepatch preview.

Originally posted by ninakoru:

You seem to misunderstand. I'm not asking you how long it takes for you to do anything with the Nakalim. I'm asking you how long it takes you with any other faction to research 7 techs: 4 first ring, 3 second ring techs. It is a very simple question. Yes, it varies playthrough by playthrough, faction to faction - i'm looking for an estimated average. It doesn't matter which techs are picked. But 5-7 techs is the bare minimum to fight the Nakalim on even ground.

Well, if you want to zerg rush to a Nakalim neighbor, and put every bit of effort to get a competing fleet ready ASAP, UE, Riftborn, Cravers and Hissho, and Voldyani are more than capable of doing so by turn 20 or so. About turn 30 is a standard in a snowballing game, but for sure you can focus and make it happen much earlier.

Just made a quick test, as I hit turn 22 with Voldyani with a decent start (you can get this type of starts 50% of the time), 5 fully upgraded T3 ships, and pushing 2 ships each 3 turns. I believe you can get similar results with all of the above.

[Captain Cobbs]

Hey! I'm the designer for the Nakalim/Academy rework. I'd have to agree with a lot of your points honestly, though if I ever get rehired here's what I'd be hoping to do
- Reduce Slumbering Ruins bonuses, in games I've played, I think the number of ruins are fine, but I think they give way too much. Personally, I think I'd reduce the initial population to 1, make it so it only starts with T0 buildings, and so the bonus for finding a ruin is only Approval.
- Reduce output of science buildings, I inadvertently made their unique science buildings scale way better than the generic versions. I'd probably either cap the bonus a specific instance of the building can provide to like 25 relics or something, or just drastically reduce how much each relic provides.

Some other things I was also tentatively considering were:
- An outpost food malus so that they had to defend their non-ruin outposts for longer
- Multiplicative increase to the total industry costs of ships (including modules) so that it was harder for them to zerg rush other factions with huge industry costs
- A reduction to the influence conversion ratio that temples provide, something like 1 science -> 0.5 influence.

Happy to hear your thoughts, this thread has been great.

Originally posted by ZumZoom:

Yeah, last time I played it was pretty annoying how OP and aggressive they were. Definitely overcompensated to appease the whiners.

I didn't have time to balance them since I managed my time poorly and my contract ran out, basically what you're experiencing are the programmer numbers that never got tuned. We also had to delay the publishing of the Nakalim rework until it was too late to collect useful feedback, so I didn't get the numbers I wanted in time.

[Captain Cobbs]

Originally posted by Amaranthion:

Speaking of which and I hope this isn't considered as a change of topic but does anyone know how to mod Nakalim Temple & Cathedral bonuses? My solution would be to downgrade their OP. I've looked through DLC4 content but it so far it looks hardcoded.

For temples, check out SimulationDescriptors[PlanetaryImprovement].xml, you'll be looking for the simulation descriptor "PlanetImprovementTemple1Descriptor" for the actual effects. For the costs/prerequisites, check out ConstructibleElement_Industry[PlanetaryImprovements].xml, it should be the first object, with a name of "PlanetImprovementTemple1".

For cathedrals, you'll be looking for SimulationDescriptors[StarSystemImprovement_DLC4].xml, and the simulation descriptor "StarSystemImprovementUniqueTemplars" for the effects, and ConstructibleElement_Industry[StarSystemImprovement_DLC4].xml, "StarSystemImprovementUniqueTemplars" for the costs/prerequisites.

If you're looking for specifically the health regen malus thing, ask me specifically about that and I'll try to find it.