Victory conditions

[Salvation]

Hi,

I'm interested in trying the multiplayer mode, and I'd like to know how other people use to play the game and how you see the victory conditions in this game.

I'm coming from the Civilization series, which is - as far as I know - the original "4X"-game. What I love so much about it is that when played with many AIs or people on huge maps, it really feels like playing an alternative history of the world, which adds a roleplay aspect that is very important for the gaming experience. The number of possible victories is very small, and even thogh there are lots of different civilizations who come up with quite different advantages, they are all pretty much equally able to achieve any kind of victory, and the victory condition one is striving for may change during the game, depending on unforeseen happenings and the progress of one's enemies, which is always obvious for everyone. Somehow, all the different victory conditions depend on technological development, but they allow different approaches in achieving the goal.

In Endless Space, things are a little bit different ...

There are many different victory conditions in this game, but each faction seems to have a favourite goal to go for. For example: There was only one time that I achieved the economic victory, and that was the only time I played with the Lumeris. It wasn't planned and happened almost accidently. In any other game, I was miles away from achieving that kind of victory, even when I tried hard. This doesn't look like a good base for tactical and balanced games.

The science-victory looks like the result of a developer saying, "We need a science-victory, so let's make a science-victory." And that's what it is now: After researching the four highest technologies, you win, and when you're in an alliance, it takes all members to own something like three of the four technologies. So basically, you can win by betraying your allies and leaving the alliance. This is the problem in multiplayer games. But in games with the AI, there is another problem: A high-level AI will be very unlikely to cooperate with you in sharing technologies to win the game that way, so you need to hand over much more technologies to your allies than you receive from them. Okay, this makes sense - they are smart enough to see the threat of a strong player who might betray them by leaving the alliance and winning the game on his own. But still, they are working against themselves and the player that way. But nevertheless, the science-victory is still the easiest victory to be achieved - at least to me and when playing on huge maps, which I prefer. I won nearly all of my games (something between ten and twenty) that way, despite one or two exceptions. But the way it's done is just too boring: You share technologies with your unwilling allies by using the very annoying trading system that makes you wait for a couple of seconds after each change of the offer, not telling you what your ally is actually asking for, and so the main content of the game takes place on the trading screen where you are trying to force your allies to allow themselves to win the game.

But the good thing is that it is possible to disable certain victory conditions. So now that I'm familiar with the game, I'm deciding to turn off at least these two victory conditions from now on. But what about the rest? Which set of victory conditions gives you the ideal experience that makes the most out of the game, and what is preferred by the community?

I'm thinking of possibilities like these:

- score victory only
- supremacy with open ending
- supremacy + score victory
- achievement victory + supremacy + score victory
- all victory conditions except science-victory

Making it a pure war game going for supremacy only, as some people seem to like it, destroys the roleplay-aspect to me, but it might be just fine in this game. One clear goal to go for seems like a good idea to me, because the victory conditions in this game really differ a lot. Many different victory conditions enable more possibilities of playing the game thogh - but so does a pure score game. Picking one possible goal that would most likely be achieved violently and one peacefully might allow an interesting mix of options. But being super-selective, like saying "This condition is in, this one's out, ..." seems strange too.

Anyway, I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks!

[utilityguy]

About Victory Conditions:
Economy is considered the easiest victory condition to achieve, or at least tied with Science victory as easiest, as people usually get it by accident, assuming they research the right economy technologies. Not to mention that Trade companies have the ability to be amazing, but they are crippled by the fact that you are rarely, if ever, going to see an A.I on the other side of the map research and build trade companies for you to exploit in a trade agreement--not to mention you need to invest a considerable amount of dust into--to the point that it's easier to just research Smart-Taxation and terraform all your planets to fertile.

Speaking of which:
Dust and Science Victory conditions are heavily reliant on researched technologies, laws, and System Level Luxuries, which any faction can do easily--except the Nakalim. So as long as you know what you need to research and build, you can easily obtain those victories.

you share technologies with your unwilling allies by using the very annoying trading system that makes you wait for a couple of seconds after each change of the offer, not telling you what your ally is actually asking for, and so the main content of the game takes place on the trading screen where you are trying to force your allies to allow themselves to win the game.

Fair. Although after you research two Endless Techs, you can just gift those two technologies, without asking anything in return, to enough Alliance members in order to get past the victory condition.

Buy, yeah, you usually need to bribe allies with enough high value strategic resources(early game) and Science Technologies(mid-late game) in order to get anywhere with them.

But the good thing is that it is possible to disable certain victory conditions. So now that I'm familiar with the game, I'm deciding to turn off at least these two victory conditions from now on. But what about the rest? Which set of victory conditions gives you the ideal experience that makes the most out of the game, and what is preferred by the community?

I'm thinking of possibilities like these:

- score victory only
- supremacy with open ending
- supremacy + score victory
- achievement victory + supremacy + score victory
- all victory conditions except science-victory

I've notice you haven't mention the other non-war victory that is: Wonder Victory.
The wonder victory is, I think, the one victory that is able to give the full experience of endless space--being:

• Pressure on players to control systems or trade with other players for strategic resources.
  
• Pressure on players to improve all the numbers to the point that their systems can build the wonder buildings as quickly as possible(Usually about ~7-10+ turns per wonder without a craver hero).
  
• Pressure on players to war with other teams who are close to achieving victory by invading and conquering enemy systems that have built the Obelisks of All time and Space.

It's quicker than waiting for the game to be over like in Score and Elimination Victory. It rewards players who build wonders with a significant increase in system yields. Gives an indication to all players where the wonders are on the galactic map. And no faction is at an innate disadvantage with attempting to achieve the wonder victory, as it's reliant only on a faction's ability to research the the final tier of the Empire Science pie slice, Ration and/or Generate strategic resources, and have developed systems that can build the wonders as quickly as possible.

[Salvation]

Thank you very much, this sounds very convincing to me.

Originally posted by utilityguy:

I've notice you haven't mention the other non-war victory that is: Wonder Victory.

Above, I called the wonder victory "achievement victory", because that's the direct translation of what it's called in my language.