New Minor Faction: Hissho (with Hero)

[Jarkel]

What do people think of the Hissho being a minor faction?

Personally I like it, it adds space for a new faction.
I liked them just enough to be in the game but not enough really to play as them.
But thats just my thoughts


Link to Minor Faction page
http://wiki.endless-space.com/minor-factions/hissho

Link to Hero page:
http://wiki.endless-space.com/academy/fusha-keencrest

[Döktor Jönes]

I'm indifferent to the change. The reason for their "downfall" is lore-wise "kinda" explained.
I'm now interested which ES major factions they will implement as ES2 minor factions.
Pilgrims, Sheredyn and Automatons I would think.
Maybe Horatio and and Sowers, but I can't imagine them.

[Lucky Shot]

I'm heartbroken.

[zeshoot]

Awwww, CRA.P....Hissho!? They could've probably beat all other factions from previous with ease in terms of military prowess...How did they end up being minor leftovers, Amplitude, how?!...

[EvilTarium]

As a minor faction, and if they keep there racial perks and techs, means anybody could get the bushido bonus! Ship XP for Life!

[JErosion]

I'm not going to miss them, I like their lore and their design, but they were never my cup of tea

[a_pharaoh]

It is so sad. I dont understand why he is treated as a minor faction...

[FateWeaver]

I am personally upset by this, they were single handedly my favorite species to play as as. They are such a great mix of ancient Aztec and old Japanese cultures, mixed with the honour bound hunters of the Predator species(the wristblades and the masks were awesome). This is not a change I am okay with at all, and if there is time to change it then I beg Amplitude to reconsider this decision... :(

[Baywatch]

They were one of my favorites in ES but, honestly after I had heard there were going to be minor factions I somewhat expected this. I'll still shed a single tear now that I can no longer conquer the galaxy in ridiculously over the top bird shaped ships.

They fit the minor faction bill fairly well as do many other ES factions that seem somewhat unlikely to develop as an independent empire for one reason or another. I'll be surprised if Horatio, Automatons, and Pilgrims don't get the same treatment. Possibly the Sheredyn as well if they aren't simply merged into the United Empire.

[FateWeaver]

Originally posted by Baywatch:

They were one of my favorites in ES but, honestly after I had heard there were going to be minor factions I somewhat expected this. I'll still shed a single tear now that I can no longer conquer the galaxy in ridiculously over the top bird shaped ships.

They fit the minor faction bill fairly well as do many other ES factions that seem somewhat unlikely to develop as an independent empire for one reason or another. I'll be surprised if Horatio, Automatons, and Pilgrims don't get the same treatment. Possibly the Sheredyn as well if they aren't simply merged into the United Empire.

I don't understand how you can say they fit the minor faction bill fairly well, due to being unlikely to develop as an independent empire. They are a species of conquerors, that is what they do, their entire society is built around glorious honourable conquest, for conquest's sake. They are a warrior society that thrives on war, and they are ruled by a monarch who in turn rules over all their clans with an iron fist. If ever there was a species bent on conquering huge parts of the galaxy, it would be the Hissho, for they need external enemies to keep their clans in line. It is in their blood to be conquerors, and not some minor faction lending out mercenary aid to the highest bidder... It makes even less sense for them to lease their men and equipment to other empires, as they are deeply arrogant and view other species as inferiour to them. Serving under people they feel are inferiour would be a great dishonour.

[Baywatch]

Originally posted by FateWeaver:

I don't understand how you can say they fit the minor faction bill fairly well, due to being unlikely to develop as an independent empire. They are a species of conquerors, that is what they do, their entire society is built around glorious honourable conquest, for conquest's sake. They are a warrior society that thrives on war, and they are ruled by a monarch who in turn rules over all their clans with an iron fist. If ever there was a species bent on conquering huge parts of the galaxy, it would be the Hissho, for they need external enemies to keep their clans in line. It is in their blood to be conquerors, and not some minor faction lending out mercenary aid to the highest bidder... It makes even less sense for them to lease their men and equipment to other empires, as they are deeply arrogant and view other species as inferiour to them. Serving under people they feel are inferiour would be a great dishonour.

They're a race of technologically inferior warriors in a game about building fleets and ruling over space empires. Shunning diplomacy when you're stunted by your technological growth in a game so focused on technology really isn't a believable path to forging an empire. What they want (which isn't necessarily to conquer the galaxy I should add) doesn't have to line up with what they're capable of achieving.

I have no problem seeing them as a minor faction in the same way that I would have no problem seeing <insert any number of Barbarian tribes here> in a 4X game centered around the Roman Empire.

You're also assuming a lot in regards to how minor factions are going to function. For all we know the Hissho specifically could simply be a neutral faction that needs to be conquered before they'll join your empire with no diplomatic alternative.

[FateWeaver]

Originally posted by Baywatch:

They're a race of technologically inferior warriors in a game about building fleets and ruling over space empires. Shunning diplomacy when you're stunted by your technological growth in a game so focused on technology really isn't a believable path to forging an empire. What they want (which isn't necessarily to conquer the galaxy I should add) doesn't have to line up with what they're capable of achieving.

I have no problem seeing them as a minor faction in the same way that I would have no problem seeing <insert any number of Barbarian tribes here> in a 4X game centered around the Roman Empire.

You're also assuming a lot in regards to how minor factions are going to function. For all we know the Hissho specifically could simply be a neutral faction that needs to be conquered before they'll join your empire with no diplomatic alternative.

They are not really inferior, technologically speaking, slightly slower when it comes to research speed, sure, but they have no limits on their technological acchievements. They can research all the same shared technologies as the other species. So I wouldn't call them technologically inferior, as that would imply they are stuck in technological backwardness when that is not the case. Given enough time they will get to that same max level of technological advancement. And they got powerful weapon technologies inherent to them, presented in the game as their racial stats, that makes them more than capable of getting a solid foot into the tech race. by simply having more conquered systems to pitch in with research in the early and mid game.
I also never said they were interested in conquering the galaxy, I said parts of the galaxy, parts where there are enemies to fight. That is what they are most interested in, having enemies to fight in honourable combat. There is no lower size limit to what constitutes an empire on this scale, if we consider the Roman Empire an empire, then the Hissho already have surpassed that and more, by having conquered their own homeworld. Any new systems after that is just extra territory. All the playable species are already empires by the first turn.
And sure, new technology is very important in this game, but getting a strong early game advantage can be reached more than one way. At least in theory, as there is always someone finding optimal strategy paths that even the developers had not foreseen, but at least in theory the game was designed with different paths to victory in mind, the Hissho's warpath being one.

[Baywatch]

Originally posted by FateWeaver:

Snip.

I think you're missing my point. I'm not argueing their viability in ES1 and I'm certainly not trying to impy that they have not surpassed the Roman Empire, anyone that can even make it into space has the Romans beat but, that doesn't mean they can manage a galaxy spanning empire. How technologically inferior they actually are is something we could debate till the end of time (or at least until someone from Amplitude steps in to set us straight) because of the open ended nature of the 4X genre.

Living on a relatively low-gravity planet, this species that excelled in flight was able to grow larger brains and bodies than they might have on comparable worlds. They were discovered relatively late in their evolutionary process by the Concrete Endless and developed into a race of highly dangerous gladiators. Over centuries their culture and society evolved into one that revolved solely around martial arts, honor, and war; as a result their history is one of bloodshed, conquest, and vengeance. While this has created a very hardy, aggressive, and dangerous people, it has also slowed their advancement and limited their numbers.

That's taken directly from the Endless Space 2 wiki and If I'm not mistaken they also had a similar description in ES1. Whether you agree with the decision to make them a minor faction or not, I think that's a solid justification for it and why I expected them to be one of the unfortunate few that will be making space for some new factions.

[FateWeaver]

Originally posted by Baywatch:

I think you're missing my point. I'm not argueing their viability in ES1 and I'm certainly not trying to impy that they have not surpassed the Roman Empire, anyone that can even make it into space has the Romans beat but, that doesn't mean they can manage a galaxy spanning empire. How technologically inferior they actually are is something we could debate till the end of time (or at least until someone from Amplitude steps in to set us straight) because of the open ended nature of the 4X genre.

I don't really I think I missed your point to be honest. The thing about them possibly not being able to manage a galaxy spanning empire could be said about literally any other of the Endless Space 1 species, even though they were perfectly able to in that game.

Originally posted by Baywatch:

Living on a relatively low-gravity planet, this species that excelled in flight was able to grow larger brains and bodies than they might have on comparable worlds. They were discovered relatively late in their evolutionary process by the Concrete Endless and developed into a race of highly dangerous gladiators. Over centuries their culture and society evolved into one that revolved solely around martial arts, honor, and war; as a result their history is one of bloodshed, conquest, and vengeance. While this has created a very hardy, aggressive, and dangerous people, it has also slowed their advancement and limited their numbers.

That's taken directly from the Endless Space 2 wiki and If I'm not mistaken they also had a similar description in ES1. Whether you agree with the decision to make them a minor faction or not, I think that's a solid justification for it and why I expected them to be one of the unfortunate few that will be making space for some new factions.

And this is taken from the ES1 wiki.
"The Hissho are a modern and civilized people descended from avian DNA. However, they are avian in the way that many species of dinosaur had avian characteristics; in fact, they are not unlike feathered pterodactyls. A race of highly competitive tribal warriors, their history is one of bloodshed, conquest, vengeance and domination. While this has created a very hardy, aggressive, and dangerous people, it has also slowed their advancement and limited their numbers. When they did reach the stars to find other peoples waiting for them, their reaction was to conquer and dominate. Their innate and learned sense of flight makes them superior pilots."
Emphasis on "a modern and civlized people." Both wiki's only point to their slow research speed, "it has also slowed their advancement." Their scientific potential is the exact same as everyone else's, they are just slower at getting there.

Personally I don't see a reason why they should be pushed to the side lines, they were certainly one of the more memorable species. I will at least be fighting for their cause until Endless Space 2 has completed its Early Access run, and even after I will lobby for them to be fleshed out as a major faction in an expansion pack. if they still are a minor faction at that point.

[Baywatch]

I'd like to mention that I'm not actually trying to convince you to see things my way. I'm only giving my reasoning as to why I'm not at all surprised to see them as a minor faction and why I'm not too broken up over it. If you feel deeply enough about them not being a playable faction (which you clearly do) then don't let me change your mind.

[FateWeaver]

Originally posted by Baywatch:

I'd like to mention that I'm not actually trying to convince you to see things my way. I'm only giving my reasoning as to why I'm not at all surprised to see them as a minor faction and why I'm not too broken up over it. If you feel deeply enough about them not being a playable faction (which you clearly do) then don't let me change your mind.

Oh, no, I had no illusions you were trying to convince me. I was simply discussing it with you, it is nice to have someone to talk to about these things. Gives you different perspectives.