This game's perception of races is kinda dumb.

[Singularity's Marauder]

No offense, people, but I just want to talk about something. The thing about Endless Space 2 is that it kinda promotes white supremacy in my opinion. Whenever I find myself trying to manage populations, this happens because population units have set FIDSI stats that I want to micro-manage personally, I feel like some sort of anti-jew eugenic reading conspiracy theories about how Sophons are better at science, whilst some flat headed water people are good at making weed. Like... What the ♥♥♥♥ is this?
Why are all alien races summed up with "these dudes give you +2 to food production, these dudes give you +2 to approval on teeming". The cultural differences between groups of... People... Are so vastly complex that to understand how different they are, you would need to spend decades studying their cultures, long-term applications, etc. etc. Meanwhile this game made a minigame out of this very touchy subject.
Now, I know these are aliens, but obviously these aliens are meant to be like... Common in mind. With the exception of Harmony and some other extremely unique fellas, like the BAGABAH... Most alien races could just be humans, tbh. Like... You guys remember that race of like short aliens who like shooting stuff? The guy who is like the pirate captain leader is from that species of aliens. Like... You could swap them with like "angry australians with machine guns living in a Syberian swamp" and nothing would change. Sophons could be just British people wearing cybernetic upgrades from Cyberpunk 2077. Riftborn are just sad vague english-speaking group of people that have lost their home and now are living within our world. So, it's probably like some metaphor on some immigrant minority, except Riftborn are actually a major empire and they can easily kick your ass with their superior industry and manpower output.
But that's the thing, you see. You are creating these human-like cultures in this world inhabited by human-like creatures, and their way to represent their cultures is... "THESE GUYS GIVE YOU BONUS FOOD, DUUUUUUUUUUH".
Like...
???????????????
I get that if these were like... We are playing like "Craven Simulator 2021" and the game is like "according to our EVIL DATA Sophons are good at Science if you pressure them using advanced skin melting acid". Like, that would be extremely edgy, but at the same time the joke would be there to represent why everything is so simple.
Where's the joke here?
I mean, I know that deep inside Endless Space 2 is a political satire on the 21st century politics, but I'm still looking for it.
Hopefully, I'll figure it out soon.

[Elitewrecker PT]

Uh.......
Ok?

[mmmcheesywaffles]

So what do you suggest?

Are you so sure its a satire on 21st Century politics. Might it just be parts of it are, or look that way?

Does it really mattter?

imho it doesn't matter as I only see SOME elements of satirical content. Any game with NPC races or factions is inherently going to simplify parameters to differentiate between those factors.

[Singularity's Marauder]

Originally posted by mmmcheesywaffles:

So what do you suggest?

Are you so sure its a satire on 21st Century politics. Might it just be parts of it are, or look that way?

Does it really mattter?

imho it doesn't matter as I only see SOME elements of satirical content. Any game with NPC races or factions is inherently going to simplify parameters to differentiate between those factors.

I dunno. Endless Space 1 handled those kinds of topics without being inevitably dumb about it. Empires were just represented as these vague entities with complex ideals that achieved their goals one way or another. They weren't suddenly being slowed down by the fact that bald aliens who like VR games aren't buying enough hamburgers, because it would be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid. None such things exist, unless we take into account the current politcal propaganda atmosphere of the interent, where apparently blue-haired women are on their way to take down the capital of video gaming or some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.
Like... Why even engage into this territory.
Why does Endless Space 2 make jokes about cultural appriopriation, weird phenomena, political correctness, if it's going to only go with this subject like "stats" and "quests" and... Like... Jesus Christ. This game is so... Like...
WHY!?
-_-

[ZumZoom]

I have a very low tolerance for wokeness, but this game didn't trigger me (I don't own the dlc yet, I don't know if it's worse with them).
Did you wish it to be a game or a political sjw statement (I'm genuinely confused which of those you want)?

[rui.silva.incp]

Well....taking this in a more constructive way, I may say the population mechanics are not completely fleshed out :)

And if I may say why?
. we lack control on transport routes, therefore lack control in safely shifting population around. So...if it was intended for that, we cant always do it properly.
As a consequence, its a mechanic that gets a bit depressing once your empire starts to grow. There are too many population types and its gets tiresome to check each system to see where do you have the right planets with room for a certain population......and in a safe distance so that you can shift them there.
. To make things worse, we lack a proper informative display to tell us how many pops are in route to where. We need to keep it in our head or use some excel spreadsheet so that we can keep track who did we send where and what room do we still have on each system.
Overall its a mechanic I only care about at the start of the game for min max purpose. Once my colonies start growing I just do not care anymore. Unless I want to try a government change and I want to try and support a certain faction into power. Then I may start to focus my population control in favor of said type....for government purpose. Still, its often too cumbersome and its rare that I will feel the need to do this.
So I end up not interacting with population much besides.....if I see a system with completely wrong assignments I will correct it within system. Outside the system....only if its really terrible and I am in desperate need to min max (which I tend not to be).

Ohhh, by the way, Vodyany are a blessing!!!!! Maybe OP should play them :) I was about to say Horatio too.....but I am ready to bet Horatio must be the one which triggers OP more.

Cravers can be a pain if you decide to exploit them. By that I mean....try that they consume planets almost to the point of depletion but stop shy from it and then move "normal" populations in. This method will build a strong and more sustainable economy but its a lot of work shifting pops around. Its fun to try and pretty powerful tough :) Because you get the extra economy from cravers to kick start system development.....and then you move "normal pops" into already developed systems where they can still produce a lot.

I am honestly not trying to joke. Just trying to discuss this game´s population game. Which.....its a game you know.....just in case you did not realize.

[Danone]

Seriously, I am christian of Syberian ancestry born in Australia, my gf is British. What's your problem bro?

[Singularity's Marauder]

Originally posted by ZumZoom:

I have a very low tolerance for wokeness, but this game didn't trigger me (I don't own the dlc yet, I don't know if it's worse with them).
Did you wish it to be a game or a political sjw statement (I'm genuinely confused which of those you want)?

I'm just confused at how half-assed the entire political theme of Endless Space 2 is. Races are represented by mere stats and some minor quests that usually make no sense context wise. For example, you could be a hyper evil Sophon empire that murdered every other Empire in the game and suddenly the Pilgrims within your community are having a thinking competition that causes your empire's production to slow down. Now, if I were to continue playing as the evil Sophonity, I would slip in some weird mind-washing drugs into people's coffees to make them go back to work, but no... I apparently have to wait, boo hoo.
Like, this is just an example of how basic this entire subject is within the game. An entire game could've been made of aliens and their cultural differences, but instead this game is a military strategist simulator/empire management/cultural control and other things at the same time, it ultimately succumbs, because Endless Space 2's biggest flaw is how it is going towards every possible direction, ripping itself apart like a giant bedsheat.

[Singularity's Marauder]

Originally posted by BAB PEEG:

I understand, there aren't enough crippled black mutant sexuals for you. Too bad.

I bet it if they were, their stats would be +5 science -5 industry +2 approval or something... +0 food on sterile.

[Singularity's Marauder]

Originally posted by rui.silva.incp:

Well....taking this in a more constructive way, I may say the population mechanics are not completely fleshed out :)

And if I may say why?
. we lack control on transport routes, therefore lack control in safely shifting population around. So...if it was intended for that, we cant always do it properly.
As a consequence, its a mechanic that gets a bit depressing once your empire starts to grow. There are too many population types and its gets tiresome to check each system to see where do you have the right planets with room for a certain population......and in a safe distance so that you can shift them there.
. To make things worse, we lack a proper informative display to tell us how many pops are in route to where. We need to keep it in our head or use some excel spreadsheet so that we can keep track who did we send where and what room do we still have on each system.
Overall its a mechanic I only care about at the start of the game for min max purpose. Once my colonies start growing I just do not care anymore. Unless I want to try a government change and I want to try and support a certain faction into power. Then I may start to focus my population control in favor of said type....for government purpose. Still, its often too cumbersome and its rare that I will feel the need to do this.
So I end up not interacting with population much besides.....if I see a system with completely wrong assignments I will correct it within system. Outside the system....only if its really terrible and I am in desperate need to min max (which I tend not to be).

Ohhh, by the way, Vodyany are a blessing!!!!! Maybe OP should play them :) I was about to say Horatio too.....but I am ready to bet Horatio must be the one which triggers OP more.

Cravers can be a pain if you decide to exploit them. By that I mean....try that they consume planets almost to the point of depletion but stop shy from it and then move "normal" populations in. This method will build a strong and more sustainable economy but its a lot of work shifting pops around. Its fun to try and pretty powerful tough :) Because you get the extra economy from cravers to kick start system development.....and then you move "normal pops" into already developed systems where they can still produce a lot.

I am honestly not trying to joke. Just trying to discuss this game´s population game. Which.....its a game you know.....just in case you did not realize.

I play mostly Sophons and Riftborn. And as both I tried to super control my population into only having 2 major races within my Empire. As Riftborn I would also often just have Riftborn, because Riftborn are super strong and if I'm going pure industry build, I can just spam them till the end of time.
The way how I control population is by launching migration vessels into systems with full population, this cause's them to get stuck into the system's orbit and then this population fails to reproduce. I also use chain gang to knock out populations instantly at the beginning of the game, preventing them from growing too big, growing at all rather, but this is problematic during later stages of the game if my food output is too big, because then chain gang doesn't remove population. In fact, you can abuse chain gang. If you queue chain gang as a second improvement in queue, you remove the population unit, then if you de-queue chain gang, you will still lose population unit, but do not get manpower. You can spam this on races in order to quickly remove population without reaching maximum manpower capacity, disallowing you from casting chain gang.

I think that the problem with this mechanic is that it's too heavy handed. The populations shouldn't be described by such simplistic stats as +2 science, it should represent that even though these races are usually better at one thing, because of the fact that it's kinda a popular hobby back on their planet, they're adaptive and capable to boost your empire in a myriad of ways, depending on the situation. For example...
I was thinking that Sophons instead of being a pure science gaining race, could be a mobility race that gains reverse bonuses depending on the kind of planet they're on.
For example Sophon population could have
+2 industry on cold
+2 science on hot
+1 industry and +1 science on temperate.
Right now Sophons are just +2 science and +2 science on cold if I remember correctly... So, if you have a system with only temperate planets, Sophons are useless and should be exterminated in favour of creating space for more useful races like the Z'vali.

Endless Space 2 team made some races seem like jackasses, it said that "oh, these guys like being on fertile", but in the end they also said that these guys are useless beyond being on fertile. Entire races are represented as this one specific thing that shouldn't be used in most of the situations, because they're very often useless.
Like... This causes me to extreminate populations, I don't want to have useless 1 population of those four-armed bears who give approval if I'm running a Riftborn empire that is going to have only sterile planets in the long run.
Maybe if they had +2 approval on fertile and +4 influence on sterile, then I would consider them, but because of how inept they are at adapting, I'm just going to put them into a trash bin.

[Singularity's Marauder]

Originally posted by rui.silva.incp:

Well....taking this in a more constructive way, I may say the population mechanics are not completely fleshed out :)

And if I may say why?
. we lack control on transport routes, therefore lack control in safely shifting population around. So...if it was intended for that, we cant always do it properly.
As a consequence, its a mechanic that gets a bit depressing once your empire starts to grow. There are too many population types and its gets tiresome to check each system to see where do you have the right planets with room for a certain population......and in a safe distance so that you can shift them there.
. To make things worse, we lack a proper informative display to tell us how many pops are in route to where. We need to keep it in our head or use some excel spreadsheet so that we can keep track who did we send where and what room do we still have on each system.
Overall its a mechanic I only care about at the start of the game for min max purpose. Once my colonies start growing I just do not care anymore. Unless I want to try a government change and I want to try and support a certain faction into power. Then I may start to focus my population control in favor of said type....for government purpose. Still, its often too cumbersome and its rare that I will feel the need to do this.
So I end up not interacting with population much besides.....if I see a system with completely wrong assignments I will correct it within system. Outside the system....only if its really terrible and I am in desperate need to min max (which I tend not to be).

Ohhh, by the way, Vodyany are a blessing!!!!! Maybe OP should play them :) I was about to say Horatio too.....but I am ready to bet Horatio must be the one which triggers OP more.

Cravers can be a pain if you decide to exploit them. By that I mean....try that they consume planets almost to the point of depletion but stop shy from it and then move "normal" populations in. This method will build a strong and more sustainable economy but its a lot of work shifting pops around. Its fun to try and pretty powerful tough :) Because you get the extra economy from cravers to kick start system development.....and then you move "normal pops" into already developed systems where they can still produce a lot.

I am honestly not trying to joke. Just trying to discuss this game´s population game. Which.....its a game you know.....just in case you did not realize.

Another aspect that this game annoys me by is how political it is. And not in a good way. Fallout: New Vegas is political. Endess Space 1 was political. Even games like Half Life are political. The problem is that Endless Space 2 is extremely political and it approaches those subjects with a giant space hammer. The way how parties are represented with opposite views is this woke agenda where democracy is a system where two giant OPPOSITE beings rival each other till one of them explodes, when in reality the aim of democracy is to create consensus via discussion in my opinion. And saying that Militarist-Pacifist, Sciencist-Religious and Industry-Ecological are the parties that exist... Well... Why not have in between parties? I get that this is for simplicity's sake. We can't have the Green Party (militarist ecological pacifists) or the Red Crucible Party (militarist industrialist). Instead of having those like... Complex political approaches to subjects where people go by their scientific data, cultural background, biases... It's just....
MILITARIST LIKE BIG GUNS...
ECOLOGISTS DO FOOD... AND COLONIZE TOO.
It's so basic. Like... The system seems to be designed over a long period of time to be as basic and as stupidly barren as physically possible. It's just... This kind of approach causes the thing to look super cringe.
And the same goes with the population units. These should be hyper-advanced stats. I bet that in Endless Space 1 factions you were playing also had minorities in them... The United Empire could have probably like 2 Hisshos drinking coffee in the office of Auriga or something. But these minorities weren't represented with a giant arrow saying "THIS POPULATION PRODUCES 50 MANPOWER ON TEEMING, MOVE THEM THERE". Population units were just general, because game was like "there's no difference, don't think about it, in the end, everything averages out and nothing matters". Endless Space 2 should describe how every faction turns into this melting pot that morphs and changes into another faction by the fact that it has those various people. Countries like Poland, Germany... Russia... United States... Most countries in the world I bet are the result of a giant group of people with various ideals morphing over time into this weird blob of cultural weaknesses and strengths. In Endless Space 2 however, the game is like "you will get these populations, but they will not assimilate, they will not influence you, they will just bother you with their own little events and stats". This system is BARREN and it causes it to be political in the wrong way...
But this is subjective.
I don't think it's as important as the fact that the game's UI is kinda... Well... Weird... I dunno. I was going to say something there...
END

[Groo the one]

Originally posted by Randomized Randomizer:

But this is subjective.

Pretty obvious.

Originally posted by Randomized Randomizer:

I don't think it's as important as the fact that the game's UI is kinda... Well... Weird... I dunno.

One of, if not THE best UI I experienced, yet. Needless to write it's pretty much objective, not?

[Godkitty Jessie]

You're thinking about it in a *way* too "humanity-centric" way. We're not talking about different human cultures on different continents of planet earth, but completely different anatomies, developments and even habitats. So it does make sense, that the Cravers for example which have cyborg implants which make them more efficient at killing are better soldiers than the average Lumeris who grew up in a world that's mostly waterbased and full of corruption and money talks. In return, since cravers are a hivemind, they don't really have any real interest in things like money or posession.

I don't know about you, but to me it, the way the game handles races, really makes sense. Just don't see the races as different kinds of humans but completely different entities in all ways

EDIT:
Infact, I think that how every bigger sci fi IP handles different races and even Fantasy IPs

[Singularity's Marauder]

Originally posted by gei Töhö:

You're thinking about it in a *way* too "humanity-centric" way. We're not talking about different human cultures on different continents of planet earth, but completely different anatomies, developments and even habitats. So it does make sense, that the Cravers for example which have cyborg implants which make them more efficient at killing are better soldiers than the average Lumeris who grew up in a world that's mostly waterbased and full of corruption and money talks. In return, since cravers are a hivemind, they don't really have any real interest in things like money or posession.

I don't know about you, but to me it, the way the game handles races, really makes sense. Just don't see the races as different kinds of humans but completely different entities in all ways

EDIT:
Infact, I think that how every bigger sci fi IP handles different races and even Fantasy IPs

I hate the fact that they turned Cravers into a hivemind in Endless Space 2. In Endless Space 1 it was clearly suggested that Cravers were no less of a society than humans. Heroes had human-like motivations with stories of how they were tasked to manage projects. Their improvements were not that different to any other empire, so things like consumptions was as much common with them as with Hissho or UE. They used the internet, built infrastructures. They had individual personalities that gravitated towards weird directions. Now they re just zerg, borg, orcs... Any othet stupid boring race where entire social hierarchy was just "hivemind l o l". Sowers were a hivemind. According to a hero's description they link their minds into one big consciousness like the Khala of Protoss when near each other. Kinda like Geth too. I m so sad they were made a.... UGH... Minor race.

But to answer ur question... Yes, but actually no. Sure, initially a Lumeris is better at selling stonks than a Craver who has a robotic body. This is why their stats differ. But what stops a young Lumeris from going to a tough as nails military school? Getting implants himself? Learning craver strategies and becoming the Doomslayer? At the same time, why can't a Craver specialize, or as a group, in economics. Observe markets, calculate, read on culture etc. In ES1 all races had stormtroopers, all races could do stonks... Sure they had traits that gave them bonuses, but it wasnt like Sophons are destined to be cold loving sciencemen. Lore-wise Sophons in ES1 were just snarky idiots with phds. That s where their story ended and your story started. In ES2 they ll always be the inventors of Enpher. Even if they just finished changing their gov to authoritarian and slaughtering 10 million people via orbital annihilation.

[Singularity's Marauder]

Originally posted by Danone:

Seriously, I am christian of Syberian ancestry born in Australia, my gf is British. What's your problem bro?

The problem is that you are no different than any other person. You can adapt to changing circumstances, you have a culture that does not leave you, at least it shouldn't, inside a cage that causes you to be constant and neverendingly useless. You have some form of objective and subjective value. And sure, some people may joke like "I'm a gamer, I just sit in chair and am useless". But nah, that's not really how it works.
Endless Space 2 portrays these alien species as nothing but weird looking humanoids with accents that in the end behave exactly like humans. Their emotions are very samy, their approaches to problem-solving isn't confusing. Alien species like Asari, Salarians, Turians, Sophons, Cravers, Z'vali, Orcs, Night Elves, Dranei aren't unintuitive in their nature. If not for their fashionable designs, they could pose just as wacky humans within our society and no one would bat an eye.
This causes them to be human, basically. And humans are adaptable.
If alien species within Endless Space 2 were more like Eridians, Combine Advisors or G-Man, then it would be justifable to say that their inherent differences to us make them more better at certain aspects or worse in others. After all, we are two different completely different beings.
Birds are better at flying than cows, because these are so radically different animals, there is no arguing at their function and adaptation.
Now Z'vali, Sophons, Asari, Turian are just wacky aliens that are humans with different models and... You get it, do you?
The point is that...
When you make aliens that are human-like and not very alien, then trying to say "their differences causes them to be radically different" is kinda... Dumb... Because they're not different at all. Asari don't seem to be at all different from humans. Their culture is very samy, their movement and thinking is very samy, their philosophy is very samy. They just have some weird gimmicks, like all women... Long life spans or metallic skin (turians)... This kind of thing shouldn't make them completely radically alien.
A human that lives a 200-1000 years will not be radically different to us, as long as he is a human in mind. A person who has metallic skin will not be radically different to an average human, as long as he is in mind the same.
And the asari and turian are the same in mind with us. They have colonialism, they have long-term relationships, they have capitalism, they have family structure, typical hierarchies, a sense of honor or lack there of.
G-man is just some enigma. We cannot even begin to comprehend his motivations. Eridians are so complex, all we ever see them doing is trying to beat the ♥♥♥♥ out of us or being ominous. Combine's goals are so huge and long-term that their advisors are just floating bugs that ♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥ up randomly.
They're alien.
So, if aliens of Endless Space 2 aren't alien, excluding rare instances like the Bagabah, why the hell don't they posses traits in common humans like adaptability.
The answer is... Because it makes for an easier to design game in my opinion.

[Singularity's Marauder]

Originally posted by Groo the one:

Originally posted by Randomized Randomizer:

But this is subjective.

Pretty obvious.

Originally posted by Randomized Randomizer:

I don't think it's as important as the fact that the game's UI is kinda... Well... Weird... I dunno.

One of, if not THE best UI I experienced, yet. Needless to write it's pretty much objective, not?

Well, yes. If your standard for UI is Overwatch rather than Half Life 2, information over clarity can be a differently valued thing. I myself think that Endless Space 2's ui is... Good, but I don't like how we traded simplistic icons to...
You know, what. I'm starting to sound like an Endless Space 1 fanboy, nevermind. There's nothing wrong with the UI, except for the fact that AI manager system is a joke and it should be removed from the game, because it doesn't work anyway.