Same tech trees?

[anm913]

I am loving this game and each race plays differently because of their initial differences, but why do they all have the same tech tree? Will they have different end game tech trees later on?

[SenecaAthena]

We are awaiting the newest updates, and hopefully the devs have listened to the community concerning your question. On games2gether lots of feedback on this issue. Wish it was a tech tree btw - now its filling your basket and moving on to the next era. Personally I surely hope the tech systematics get a major overhaul.

[Nemo, Forevermore]

Originally posted by OnyxCarp:

We are awaiting the newest updates, and hopefully the devs have listened to the community concerning your question. On games2gether lots of feedback on this issue. Wish it was a tech tree btw - now its filling your basket and moving on to the next era. Personally I surely hope the tech systematics get a major overhaul.

same here. I am a huge fan of ES (with over 1k hrs) and I prefer that tech tree to the EL tech tree any day of the week.

[ElPrezCBF]

As you probably know, ES2's tech tree system was brought over from Endless Legend. In EL, all factions have the same "fundamental" techs to provide flexibility and choice no matter what faction you play. On top of that, there are also certain faction specific techs that only the faction can research. And on top of that, there are also certain techs you can't access the normal way except through completing quests, which I believe was also implemented already in ES2.

Do note that while all factions have access to the same "fundamental" techs, you are unlikely to go for all of them because every new tech you research scales up in research point costs. So yes, they are there, but you're not going to prioritize them the same way or even research them in a different campaign depending on your settings, strategy and gameplay developments. In short, I like the non-linear nature of ES2's tech tree because it gives you so many choices to consider.

[SenecaAthena]

For your information, afaik the latest response from the devs concerning tech systematics...

https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forum/66-game-design/thread/21749-fixing-tech-tree-ideas-discussion?page=3#thread

... on the bottom half of the page

Nothing explicit about faction specific techs though - maybe later?

[ElPrezCBF]

Originally posted by OnyxCarp:

For your information, afaik the latest response from the devs concerning tech systematics...

https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forum/66-game-design/thread/21749-fixing-tech-tree-ideas-discussion?page=3#thread

... on the bottom half of the page

Nothing explicit about faction specific techs though - maybe later?

Not that I know of. But it wouldn't make sense not to implement that as well when the rest of the tech system is in. In fact, they should because that's what makes each faction feel more special.

[Undergrowler]

Originally posted by OnyxCarp:

For your information, afaik the latest response from the devs concerning tech systematics...

https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forum/66-game-design/thread/21749-fixing-tech-tree-ideas-discussion?page=3#thread

... on the bottom half of the page

Nothing explicit about faction specific techs though - maybe later?

They're keeping the cost evolution. If that will transfer between eras it's not good enough to just lower it. There are many technologies so all that will do is delay the research trap. People will still only go for the best road through the research.....feature era thing. They're not solving the fundamental problem with eras.

[Nemo, Forevermore]

if I had to guess, I would say they will work on faction-unique tech after all the factions have been created. Balancing seems like it would be easier to do once everything is on the table.

[ElPrezCBF]

Originally posted by mad_myke:

if I had to guess, I would say they will work on faction-unique tech after all the factions have been created. Balancing seems like it would be easier to do once everything is on the table.

It's tricky because faction unique techs can apply in any area, whether special units/buildings/empire abilities. In the case of ships, it's tricky because it seems all factions' ships differ only in look and the main factor that determines combat effectiveness is hull size and module slots available. This wasn't an issue in Endless Legend because unit health and abilities differed greatly from faction to faction and effort was made to try and balance them. For example, the Forgotten units have lower hp, but their stealth ability compensates somewhat for this against enemy units with higher hp. So a faction unique ship would probably need to have unique abilities, which requires some imagination.

It should be easier for unique buildings as they can simply grant different bonuses or compensate for the faction's weak trait. For example, a faction with a much higher expansion penalty than other factions due to its trait may have a unique building that greatly offsets this penalty if researched and built.

As for unique empire abilities, that would definitely require some imagination and balancing.

[Undergrowler]

Originally posted by Idlihx10:

Originally posted by mad_myke:

if I had to guess, I would say they will work on faction-unique tech after all the factions have been created. Balancing seems like it would be easier to do once everything is on the table.

It's tricky because faction unique techs can apply in any area, whether special units/buildings/empire abilities. In the case of ships, it's tricky because it seems all factions' ships differ only in look and the main factor that determines combat effectiveness is hull size and module slots available. This wasn't an issue in Endless Legend because unit health and abilities differed greatly from faction to faction and effort was made to try and balance them. For example, the Forgotten units have lower hp, but their stealth ability compensates somewhat for this against enemy units with higher hp. So a faction unique ship would probably need to have unique abilities, which requires some imagination.

Nope. Play Lumeris and then the Sophons. Lumeris basic combat ship have two long range and two medium/short range weapon slots. Sophons only have one long range and two medium/short range slots. It's Endless Legend all over again with faction units.

[ElPrezCBF]

Originally posted by Tarm:

Nope. Play Lumeris and then the Sophons. Lumeris basic combat ship have two long range and two medium/short range weapon slots. Sophons only have one long range and two medium/short range slots. It's Endless Legend all over again with faction units.

Well, that hasn't been my experience. I played all 4 factions and don't feel any difference even with what you mentioned. And how do you "balance" such differences in ES2? In EL, you can clearly see how stats will change as you equip your units. There are clear consequences where higher attack is a competition against higher defense, and higher initiative always gets first strike. How does having fewer weapon slots increase visibility for the player over combat effectiveness? It still seems very sketchy to me in ES2.

[Undergrowler]

Originally posted by Idlihx10:

Originally posted by Tarm:

Nope. Play Lumeris and then the Sophons. Lumeris basic combat ship have two long range and two medium/short range weapon slots. Sophons only have one long range and two medium/short range slots. It's Endless Legend all over again with faction units.

Well, that hasn't been my experience. I played all 4 factions and don't feel any difference even with what you mentioned. And how do you "balance" such differences in ES2? In EL, you can clearly see how stats will change as you equip your units. There are clear consequences where higher attack is a competition against higher defense, and higher initiative always gets first strike. How does having fewer weapon slots increase visibility for the player over combat effectiveness? It still seems very sketchy to me in ES2.

You don't? I don't believe that. Lumeris have four weapon slots on their standard combat ship. Sophons have three. A extra support slot for sophons do not in any way compensate for that.

What do you mean with balance and what's this talk of things like initiative from Endless Legend? You need to let go of Endless Legend as your reference point. Endless Space is a far away different game than Endless Legend. They do only compare in the broad sense that they're 4X games. Comparing combat units between those games as you do does not work.

[ElPrezCBF]

Originally posted by Tarm:

Originally posted by Idlihx10:

Well, that hasn't been my experience. I played all 4 factions and don't feel any difference even with what you mentioned. And how do you "balance" such differences in ES2? In EL, you can clearly see how stats will change as you equip your units. There are clear consequences where higher attack is a competition against higher defense, and higher initiative always gets first strike. How does having fewer weapon slots increase visibility for the player over combat effectiveness? It still seems very sketchy to me in ES2.

You don't? I don't believe that. Lumeris have four weapon slots on their standard combat ship. Sophons have three. A extra support slot for sophons do not in any way compensate for that.

What do you mean with balance and what's this talk of things like initiative from Endless Legend? You need to let go of Endless Legend as your reference point. Endless Space is a far away different game than Endless Legend. They do only compare in the broad sense that they're 4X games. Comparing combat units between those games as you do does not work.

I'm not comparing it with EL just for the sake of doing so. Unit balance is a relevant issue no matter what game you use as a reference point. EL is used as a reference because of the similarities between the 2 as they come from the same dev. It's just like comparing 2 TW games, you don't use a completely different title with completely different mechanics from a different dev as a comparison.

In EL, almost all units have a fixed number of slots for weapons, armor etc, with a few exceptions depending on the unit class or extra slots from promoting heroes. This means that you can clearly compare the relative abilities of the same unit class in different factions because they have the same number of slots and field the same classes of weapons. In ES2, ships of the same class and hull type should logically have the same number of slots and access to the same class of weapons/equipment choice no matter what faction you play. This allows you to clearly compare the relative strengths of ships in the same class vs your opponent. If this principle is not followed, how do you assess the combat effectiveness of your ships vs those of the same class built by the enemy and give them an edge accordingly?

[Undergrowler]

Originally posted by Idlihx10:

Originally posted by Tarm:

You don't? I don't believe that. Lumeris have four weapon slots on their standard combat ship. Sophons have three. A extra support slot for sophons do not in any way compensate for that.

What do you mean with balance and what's this talk of things like initiative from Endless Legend? You need to let go of Endless Legend as your reference point. Endless Space is a far away different game than Endless Legend. They do only compare in the broad sense that they're 4X games. Comparing combat units between those games as you do does not work.

I'm not comparing it with EL just for the sake of doing so. Unit balance is a relevant issue no matter what game you use as a reference point. EL is used as a reference because of the similarities between the 2 as they come from the same dev. It's just like comparing 2 TW games, you don't use a completely different title with completely different mechanics from a different dev as a comparison.

In EL, almost all units have a fixed number of slots for weapons, armor etc, with a few exceptions depending on the unit class or extra slots from promoting heroes. This means that you can clearly compare the relative abilities of the same unit class in different factions because they have the same number of slots and field the same classes of weapons. In ES2, ships of the same class and hull type should logically have the same number of slots and access to the same class of weapons/equipment choice no matter what faction you play. This allows you to clearly compare the relative strengths of ships in the same class vs your opponent. If this principle is not followed, how do you assess the combat effectiveness of your ships vs those of the same class built by the enemy and give them an edge accordingly?

You're missing the point of Endless Space and so does the developer that actually made it. That's my point. Restricted unit types are from Endless Legend. I did not buy Endless Legend 2. I bought Endless Space 2. I ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ expect it to let me create space ships that aren't reskinned infantry, shamans, archers or anything related to fantasy units or medieval ones.

Edit: Is that blunt enough for you and the developers?

[ElPrezCBF]

Originally posted by Tarm:

You're missing the point of Endless Space and so does the developer that actually made it. That's my point. Restricted unit types are from Endless Legend. I did not buy Endless Legend 2. I bought Endless Space 2. I ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ expect it to let me create space ships that aren't reskinned infantry, shamans, archers or anything related to fantasy units or medieval ones.

Sorry, you're missing the point. What do you mean restricted unit types are from Endless Legend? If you understand how ES2's ship designer works, you'll know that hulls are already restricted by the number and type of modules allowed for them. But that isn't my point. My point is hulls of the same class type should have the same number of slots and module types available to choose from regardless of faction in order for the player to easily compare their relative abilities vs enemy ships of the same class. It's not a reskin because you can still choose different module types ALLOWED UNDER EACH CLASS to fit your ships.

[Undergrowler]

Originally posted by Idlihx10:

Originally posted by Tarm:

You're missing the point of Endless Space and so does the developer that actually made it. That's my point. Restricted unit types are from Endless Legend. I did not buy Endless Legend 2. I bought Endless Space 2. I ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ expect it to let me create space ships that aren't reskinned infantry, shamans, archers or anything related to fantasy units or medieval ones.

Sorry, you're missing the point. What do you mean restricted unit types are from Endless Legend? If you understand how ES2's ship designer works, you'll know that hulls are already restricted by the number and type of modules allowed for them. But that isn't my point. My point is hulls of the same class type should have the same number of slots and module types available to choose from regardless of faction in order for the player to easily compare their relative abilities vs enemy ships of the same class. It's not a reskin because you can still choose different module types ALLOWED UNDER EACH CLASS to fit your ships.

Ah ♥♥♥♥ sorry for that. I never learn. Remind me to never post when drunk will ya? My point still stands but I'll modify it a bit in a day or more when I've read your last posts properly.