ENDLESS™ Space 2

ENDLESS™ Space 2

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WiDOWZ May 23, 2017 @ 8:28pm
Lumeris Underwhelming?
I dont know if theyve been through any changes since the official release but playing them now, they feel very weak imo as their only real faction benefit is buying and trading systems, which scale heavily in terms of the dust required to create an outpost and the fact that trading them afterwards is generally a bad idea unless you explored the region so fast you took systems closer to another faction. Also their population which only boost dust output by 3 should the planet be fertile of which in many cases (luxury/strategic resource) planets are far from being as well as an obvious trade off seeing as most science and industry boosting improvements require hot, cold or sterile planets netting them yet another loss of resources should they choose to rely on population for gold output by lets say for example a means of terraforming sterile to fertile.

Their biggest flaw taking all these things into account is the lack of scientific and/or industrial specialization considering they need at least one to get anything done. One could argue to buy the improvements but their dust doesnt kick off much more rapidly then most other factions lest you settle purely on fertile planets alone and plenty at that which again cuts off somewhat from heavy scientific and for that matter industrial planets not to mention hordering dust meaning you wouldn't have very many colonies too begin with. As well as later developments getting much more expensive (even with a 30% decrease on buyout) so ignoring industry is simply not optional nor science for that matter.

This was in response to a post pre-release that stated they were too strong of which I strongly disagree. Im sure this isnt the best explanation and is subject to a few shortcomings considering im still experiementing with them, but of all the factions ive played this one has been the hardest to optimize for me. Feels like my favorite faction (Ardent Mages) from Endless Legend all over again. Who by all means were no slouches but felt very underwhelming if you didn't master them in and out .
Last edited by WiDOWZ; May 23, 2017 @ 8:37pm
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Showing 1-13 of 13 comments
So Awesome May 23, 2017 @ 8:42pm 
after a few half play throughs i got my first win with the Lumeris

its one of the top 2 factions in my book, they start with 2 explorers which let you snowball early on since they allow you to get the 10 probe explorer bonus as well as take care of a few quests that revolve on defeating a few pirates ships very early in the game. the bonuses you get from these early quests catapult you to the top ( some RNG involded though on quest rewards)

the buy out of a colony is insanely good if you tech accordinly in the first few turns, basically explore early on for the best system and planet and then snipe it with 200 gold, you have to tech for colonization early on though which doesnt take long, just 1 or 2 techs for colonization to get started

also i think that being able to use dust and influence as a curreny in a way that most other facstions can not is somewhat what makes the lumeris and empire too strong. you dont get punished for dumping it all every now and then, since the victory condition is based on what you make per turn and a few other factors; letting you spend it all as you want
Last edited by So Awesome; May 23, 2017 @ 8:45pm
Astasia May 23, 2017 @ 9:24pm 
They've been underpowered forever, the only faction worse than them are Cravers. Their entire thing is dust, but they get less dust than Vodyani or Riftborn, and no other real advantage. Buying colonies is the slowest system of progression early game, which is when it counts. The first colony is like 200 dust depending on game speed, but it quickly ramps up, the second is 400, the third 600, the fourth 800, and this is also effected by inflation. Dust income is **** early game, and you also need it to bribe minor factions. You are much better off spending your dust on minor factions, but other empires can just spend influence which has no other use while also building colony ships to expand twice as quickly and use their dust to repair and upgrade their fleets. Being forced to use dust for more things instead of being able to use different resources to do multiple things at once is a HUGE PENALTY.

I'm wondering if there's a strategy to make them strong, my only thought is using Super Spuds for every level of system upgrades. Lumeris gets 30% buyout reduction in the tech tree compared to the 20% other factions get (this is a new thing in 1.0), but stack another 30% from 3x super spuds and that's 60%. I think there's at least one or two more buyout reductions you can get from minor factions and exploration buildings, if you could get buyout reduction all the way to -80% that might push them up on the ladder, but still we are only talking a 10% difference between other factions. I've tried this strategy before but fell way too far behind long before I could make it work and I ended the game early. Using super spuds as your first two colony upgrades instead of resources that actually have an imediate bonus just kills your progression.
Sizzlor May 24, 2017 @ 1:08am 
Lumeris can be tricky, but there are three core elements to them. The market, diplomacy and trade. Get the market as early as possible as it allows you to sell off those early game metals and luxuries that are kind of useless super early and don't really take effect until the start of mid game. With the extra dust from selling you can more easily buy planets and bribe minor factions. You want to cherry pick good systems. Preferably large systems with lots of rescources that you can sell for more money or systems that are key to nearby factions if you want to be antagonistic.

Another early boon is peace as soon as possible as the pasifist main law gives 15% fidsi per empire at peace. I find the easiest way to peace some one is to buy a garbage system in the middle of nowhere and trade it for peace. Keep in mind that you can trade outposts which cost food to grow. In theory you should be able to bog some one down by giving them a system that puts them over the edge of how much food or aproval they can afford. I generally like to sell systems that are the least useful to a given faction while keeping the good ones for myself. I like to buy up systems in a hostile factions teritory then sell them to other factions forcing the hostile faction to have to declare war on multiple factions if they want to expand. Another aspect about peace and diplomacy is less people to worry about going to war with. The more peaceful factions the less time and money you have to waste on military. Though millitary is an option too. Especially if it helps secure good systems and trade routes while scoreing brownie points with a strong AI you can later ally with.

There is a bit of a trick with trade routes. They scale off distance so you want to set them up as far away as possible while getting the most luxuries as possible. They also gain expirience so the earlier you get trade up the better. As the Lumeris your main focus is on economy and diplomacy techs. Food helps as the bio fuel plants for Lumeris also gives you money. The bulk of your science is from trade, science agreements and anything you can pick up from diplomatic trade. You have to work the markets and the diplomacy. You have to wheel and deal and some times set up one sided deals scams and international incidents if you need to. You need to keep your fingers on the pulse of a lot of things, but if you work it right you can have a 20+ system empire pulling in 200k+ a turn with several allies ready to jump to your defense at a moments notice incase anyone starts something.
Astasia May 24, 2017 @ 1:22am 
That's all solid advice, the problem is none of that is Lumeris specific. You could just as easily be talking about Unfallen there. Lumeris doesn't really get any bonuses to trade or diplomacy, they have blockade breakers but that just helps them with trade during cold war not peace. Their unique techs are a few 10% bonuses to dust income, there's nothing really unique or strong to play off. It's a "vanilla" faction with a small dust boost that falls way short of the dust bonuses other factions get "on the side." I mean Riftborn have a building that increases dust production on a system by 1 every turn, forever, and last I looked at it it wasn't flagged as an empire unique. That's a faction that's not about dust production, it's an industry heavy faction, but they have higher dust production than Lumeris without trying.
Burusagi May 24, 2017 @ 1:47am 
Really? Man that sucks, they're the one faction I was looking forward the most to. :(
WiDOWZ May 24, 2017 @ 1:48am 
Originally posted by Astasia:
Being forced to use dust for more things instead of being able to use different resources to do multiple things at once is a HUGE PENALTY.
^^THIS and yes, I went suds every level after 2 and even with workers Campus (-20%) things were still pretty expensive.

@SO Awesome Its not a complete buyout per se, only difference is you dont need a colonization ship having explored the area prior to place an outpost, rather you pay dust which grows a pretty significant amount once you've established several colonies. Also they have no special interactions with dust as you so claim, save the paying of an outpost and their influence is pretty crappy until the mid game. The only trait which allows more efficient dust production save population on fertile planets that I didnt mention in my previous post is "Blockade Breakers" which doesnt allow the blocking of trade routes in Cold Wars and the 15% dust from population bonus. That being said my main argument is that they lack anything specific that would allow them to gain an economic victory faster then lets say for example the unfallen. I wager that in a race I'd win with the unfallen quite easily. Last but not least I forgot to mention that their population bonus when you reach 50 is a measly 250 dust which by that point is nothing taking into account inflation and your already much more substantial profit.

Last edited by WiDOWZ; May 24, 2017 @ 1:52am
WiDOWZ May 24, 2017 @ 1:51am 
Originally posted by Astasia:
That's all solid advice, the problem is none of that is Lumeris specific. You could just as easily be talking about Unfallen there.
^^ Nailed it.
Mc'doge May 24, 2017 @ 2:34am 
They have a few advantages compared to most.

First off they don't need to colonize with a ship like all the other factions. Yes, even unfallen need a ship to colonize. Basically you save on ship costs, and the big thing here is getting systems that are not connected. They won't need a tech to do this!

Secondly is they are able to handle minors relatively early with bribe. You can save those purple stars for peace offers or go another route with them.

Lastly, there explorers are reliable. Two weapon slots, an armour, and an engine. Plus the bonus gives them a probe no matter what. I take advantage of this and ride out using explorers for a good while. Saves on tech, and most importantly kills annoying pirates easily.

Probably more I could say, but I am running late for my job ;)
Last edited by Mc'doge; May 24, 2017 @ 2:35am
WiDOWZ May 24, 2017 @ 2:48am 
Originally posted by Mc'Doge:
They have a few advantages compared to most.

First off they don't need to colonize with a ship like all the other factions. Yes, even unfallen need a ship to colonize. Basically you save on ship costs, and the big thing here is getting systems that are not connected. They won't need a tech to do this!

You're not saving on anything save a small bit of production when you consider you have to pay simply to set an outpost somewhere, dust being your most treasured commodity. Also bear in mind that setting too many outpost in the early stages of the game does have a tradeoff, that being the loss of growth elsewhere and the rapidly increasing cost per colony.

Originally posted by Mc'Doge:
Secondly is they are able to handle minors relatively early with bribe. You can save those purple stars for peace offers or go another route with them.

Well of course considering they are pacifist who benefit from peace 15% FIDS yet exhibit very little influence until the later stages of the game and hording influence will be required if you stand any chance to do so somewhat early.

Originally posted by Mc'Doge:
Lastly, there explorers are reliable. Two weapon slots, an armour, and an engine. Plus the bonus gives them a probe no matter what. I take advantage of this and ride out using explorers for a good while. Saves on tech, and most importantly kills annoying pirates easily.

Id agree on this I suppose but given the circumstances it is pretty much a given to make up for their shortcomings otherwise they'd have an even tougher time in the early stages of the game.
Last edited by WiDOWZ; May 24, 2017 @ 2:51am
Astasia May 24, 2017 @ 3:32am 
Originally posted by Mc'Doge:
Lastly, there explorers are reliable. Two weapon slots, an armour, and an engine. Plus the bonus gives them a probe no matter what. I take advantage of this and ride out using explorers for a good while. Saves on tech, and most importantly kills annoying pirates easily.

UE, Riftborn and Unfallen all have 5 slot exploration ships that are much more viable in combat and exploration. Horatio can fit 4 probes to their exploration ships, which is amazing. Cravers, Sophons and Vodyani can all fit 2 probes and 2 weapons on their ships, which is ideal for those slots. Lumeris are the only 4 slot exploration ship with a dedicated armor slot, which honestly does ****-all for them. 1 weapon, 1 armor and 2 probes makes them the second weakest exploration ship in the game, second only to Horatio, but Horatio again has 4 probe slots which is amazing. If they can stay out of combat the extra probe use puts Lumeris in about the middle in terms of actual exploration. Riftborn ships with 3 probe slots and 2 weapons, and Horatio ships with 4 probe slots are way out ahead.
AwesomeTomas May 24, 2017 @ 5:28am 
They start with Republic as their government, which is the best government type to start out with. Democracy doesn't start to kick in until you have three heros (for their on senate leader bonus)/ enough influence to afford using the bonus law slots. Federation requires one to already have quite a few systems for the maximum system bonus to kick in (less in a smaller galaxy though).
WiDOWZ May 24, 2017 @ 5:46am 
Originally posted by davidtomas.cardenas:
They start with Republic as their government, which is the best government type to start out with. Democracy doesn't start to kick in until you have three heros (for their on senate leader bonus)/ enough influence to afford using the bonus law slots. Federation requires one to already have quite a few systems for the maximum system bonus to kick in (less in a smaller galaxy though).
I agree that republic is the best government, that being said I started a new game with them and am finding the most optimal ways to make up for their shortcomings, I'd like to think making 2k+ a turn at 50 on mormal is decent is it not?

Still experimenting but it feels as I stated about EL Ardent Mages; no slouches but unless you find the most optimal route you're more then likely to fall behind.
WiDOWZ May 24, 2017 @ 11:22am 
Well... I take back what I said about them being underwhelming bearing in mind that its more so just economic victory in general that felt pretty unfinished as a whole considering on normal speed (250 turns was it?) I managed to net an economic victory at turn 80 even after halting mostly everything and just rushing dust output at about 60 or so. I was making a staggering 32k as well as 50-70k worth of resources every turn that I would simply sell in the market. Getting a bit of an early access to 75% ind to dust after completing their questline sealed the deal bearing in mind that i'd just finished it around the time I had access to a similiar tech in the science tree anyways. Had I bothered to optimize and didnt have a lack of other economy related boosting resources besides one I couldve finished much sooner at about 65-70. Sufficed to say the ai on serious didnt stand the slightest chance. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=932081687
Last edited by WiDOWZ; May 24, 2017 @ 11:39am
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Date Posted: May 23, 2017 @ 8:28pm
Posts: 13