ABout the Paladin magic spells

[The Ultimate Despair]

I need to ask, I'm currently PLD 78 but I struggle to find a real use to the offensive spells like Holy spiriot or Holy circle when in reality I use my MP more to ensure everyone stays healed up, I feel like the cast time the offensive magic requires just isn't worth it and I'm considering taking them out of my precious bars. If someone who mains Paladin could give me some insight on this I'd appreciate it since I cannot seem to find any good infos on that.

[The Ultimate Despair]

Nevermind, I just re read Requiescat, I hadn't realized the no cast time on spells when I hit 78 lol. Well, hotbar adjusted.

[Veezora]

To give a little more insight for you, Paladin has a fairly simple rotation alternating between Sword phase and Magic phase.

>>>>

Sword: Fast Blade > Riot Blade > [Fight or Flight] Goring Blade > Fast/Riot/Royal Authority combo > Atonement x3 > Fast/Riot/Goring combo [Fight or Flight ends]

Magic: [Requiescat] Holy Spirit/Holy Circle* x4 (x5 below Level 80) > Confiteor
*for AoE and trash

<<<<

This is by no means an expert rotation, but should give you more insight into when to/what to spend mana on. Clemency is good in a pinch, consider it as an additional mitigation tool or backup heal in emergencies, and don't forget that the boost to spells granted by Requiescat also applies to Clemency!

[The Ultimate Despair]

Originally posted by Veezora:

To give a little more insight for you, Paladin has a fairly simple rotation alternating between Sword phase and Magic phase.

>>>>

Sword: Fast Blade > Riot Blade > [Fight or Flight] Goring Blade > Fast/Riot/Royal Authority combo > Atonement x3 > Fast/Riot/Goring combo [Fight or Flight ends]

Magic: [Requiescat] Holy Spirit/Holy Circle* x4 (x5 below Level 80) > Confiteor
*for AoE and trash

<<<<

This is by no means an expert rotation, but should give you more insight into when to/what to spend mana on. Clemency is good in a pinch, consider it as an additional mitigation tool or backup heal in emergencies, and don't forget that the boost to spells granted by Requiescat also applies to Clemency!

I use Clemency a lot to self heal when I have to finish the fight solo or when my healer struggles, but yeah I completely missed the extra no cast time buff that I got at 78, to be fair I was on and off so now I redid my hotbars so I could easily include the proper rotation

[Azurda]

Even on 70 with cast timers you should use holy with requiescat, because doing non fof rotation over req is a dps loss.

[Blue Thunder]

It's fine to use Clemency in a pinch, but leave the healing to the healers. You are a tank first and foremost and your objectives are to secure enmity, mitigate as much damage as you can and DEAL damage as much as you can. Paladin just also happens to have a nice healing tool that can be used a couple times on you or on others, but it should not be by any means your priority unless the situation extremely demands it, which shouldn't happen often, if not at all.

[The Ultimate Despair]

Originally posted by Blue Thunder:

It's fine to use Clemency in a pinch, but leave the healing to the healers. You are a tank first and foremost and your objectives are to secure enmity, mitigate as much damage as you can and DEAL damage as much as you can. Paladin just also happens to have a nice healing tool that can be used a couple times on you or on others, but it should not be by any means your priority unless the situation extremely demands it, which shouldn't happen often, if not at all.

I know my job, don't worry, I just have that much of an ease and free time when I tank usually that I can afford to support here and there

[Blue Thunder]

Originally posted by Joan of Memes:

I know my job, don't worry, I just have that much of an ease and free time when I tank usually that I can afford to support here and there

My point is, don't use Clemency on others with a healer on the group just because you feel like supporting. Healers have plenty of free healing tools on their pockets nowadays, so you just throwing Clemencies out because you "can afford to support here and there" can be more of a detriment than a help. Clemency is more of a last resort tool, not something that needs to be used often.

[Caz]

Originally posted by Blue Thunder:

Originally posted by Joan of Memes:

I know my job, don't worry, I just have that much of an ease and free time when I tank usually that I can afford to support here and there

My point is, don't use Clemency on others with a healer on the group just because you feel like supporting. Healers have plenty of free healing tools on their pockets nowadays, so you just throwing Clemencies out because you "can afford to support here and there" can be more of a detriment than a help. Clemency is more of a last resort tool, not something that needs to be used often.

It's a team effort. If the PLD throwing a heal saves the group, it's a better use of GCD than slapping the boss with your sword.

Holding aggro is easy. If you have your tank stance on, and you're not just autoattacking, you're going to keep aggro. But on the note of "things not to do"... Provoke is not part of any tank rotation. It should NOT be used on cooldown. Provoke should be saved for when it's needed, whether as tank swap or to snap aggro to you if something is beating on a party member instead of you.

[The Ultimate Despair]

Originally posted by Caz:

Originally posted by Blue Thunder:

My point is, don't use Clemency on others with a healer on the group just because you feel like supporting. Healers have plenty of free healing tools on their pockets nowadays, so you just throwing Clemencies out because you "can afford to support here and there" can be more of a detriment than a help. Clemency is more of a last resort tool, not something that needs to be used often.

It's a team effort. If the PLD throwing a heal saves the group, it's a better use of GCD than slapping the boss with your sword.

Holding aggro is easy. If you have your tank stance on, and you're not just autoattacking, you're going to keep aggro. But on the note of "things not to do"... Provoke is not part of any tank rotation. It should NOT be used on cooldown. Provoke should be saved for when it's needed, whether as tank swap or to snap aggro to you if something is beating on a party member instead of you.

Exactly. Sometimes the healer is too busy trying to use a rez or just healing someone else and won't have the time to heal someone, so I'll just clemency to save a life thus saving more time and ressources for the healer

[Prince-Nyan]

This isn't a eureka moment, but a flawed one on the basis of "im a tank, i don't have to attack and trying to do the healers job for them". A PLD using clemency extending the duration of a fight, ends up taking more hits creating a self fulfilling prophecy.
Clemency has value to heal someone just revived, your healer, other tank or yourself. If you're using it as a "I'll help you heal" you are causing problems.

Tanks do more damage than healers, you casting heals ends up with healers healing less and trying to make up for your lack of combat, because you're "that" type of PLD, which has the same hate amongst healers as GNB who hit their invuln at full hp.
You also overlook the fact healers may decide not to aoe heal because you put some people at full while some sit at half hp, so you pretending to be a healer, ends up with the healers choosing to single target heal which ends up with more situations where as you state "Won't have the time to heal someone" when they'd have been fine with 1-2 aoes.

[Blue Thunder]

Originally posted by Prince-Nyan:

This isn't a eureka moment, but a flawed one on the basis of "im a tank, i don't have to attack and trying to do the healers job for them". A PLD using clemency extending the duration of a fight, ends up taking more hits creating a self fulfilling prophecy.
Clemency has value to heal someone just revived, your healer, other tank or yourself. If you're using it as a "I'll help you heal" you are causing problems.

Tanks do more damage than healers, you casting heals ends up with healers healing less and trying to make up for your lack of combat, because you're "that" type of PLD, which has the same hate amongst healers as GNB who hit their invuln at full hp.
You also overlook the fact healers may decide not to aoe heal because you put some people at full while some sit at half hp, so you pretending to be a healer, ends up with the healers choosing to single target heal which ends up with more situations where as you state "Won't have the time to heal someone" when they'd have been fine with 1-2 aoes.

Agreed. I play mainly tank, but also go healer and DPS from time to time on dungeons and extremes. When I see a Paladin casting Clemency on themselves or on others while I'm the healer I immediately tell them to stop.

One thing I'll say is that back in SB, Paladins using Clemency during pulls in dungeons was fine and actually more beneficial, as they lacked AoE damage compared to healers, but now if a PLD decides to throw heals "just because" then that's a very sub-optimal player that thinks they are helping, when in reality, 99% of the time they are not.

[Caz]

Originally posted by Blue Thunder:

Originally posted by Prince-Nyan:

This isn't a eureka moment, but a flawed one on the basis of "im a tank, i don't have to attack and trying to do the healers job for them". A PLD using clemency extending the duration of a fight, ends up taking more hits creating a self fulfilling prophecy.
Clemency has value to heal someone just revived, your healer, other tank or yourself. If you're using it as a "I'll help you heal" you are causing problems.

Tanks do more damage than healers, you casting heals ends up with healers healing less and trying to make up for your lack of combat, because you're "that" type of PLD, which has the same hate amongst healers as GNB who hit their invuln at full hp.
You also overlook the fact healers may decide not to aoe heal because you put some people at full while some sit at half hp, so you pretending to be a healer, ends up with the healers choosing to single target heal which ends up with more situations where as you state "Won't have the time to heal someone" when they'd have been fine with 1-2 aoes.

Agreed. I play mainly tank, but also go healer and DPS from time to time on dungeons and extremes. When I see a Paladin casting Clemency on themselves or on others while I'm the healer I immediately tell them to stop.

One thing I'll say is that back in SB, Paladins using Clemency during pulls in dungeons was fine and actually more beneficial, as they lacked AoE damage compared to healers, but now if a PLD decides to throw heals "just because" then that's a very sub-optimal player that thinks they are helping, when in reality, 99% of the time they are not.

As a PLD main, if I see my HP consistently sitting under 50%, I'll start healing myself. I can't trust Green DPS (healers who spam dps instead of doing their job). If the healer tells me to stop healing myself, I just don't acknowledge they said anything. If they can't be bothered to do their job, I can't be bothered to respond. Letting the tank remain below 50% for most of the dungeon is the sign of a healer that should be playing DPS instead.

Every reply you've made feels very hardline, like you think PLD using Clemency is always for a bad reason. The reality is not that simple. Also, the skill is in their arsenal for a reason. It's not just for soloing content. A good PLD will use Clemency when needed. And there are times when it's needed, regardless of how good the healer may be.

When I'm on one of my healers and I see a PLD use Clemency, it might make me wonder what I did that made them feel they needed to. But if I see a tank, any tank, using Provoke as part of their rotation, that's an immediate sign that they don't know the role, and I'll have to be extra vigilant to keep them alive.

[Azurda]

Originally posted by Caz:

As a PLD main

Judging by your posts, you only play welfare content, so you're not a pld main. Clemency only useful on prog in 2 particular ultimates on 2 particular phases. That's it. Any other case of clemency in non retarded dungeon content is a dps loss.

[Caz]

Originally posted by Azurda:

Originally posted by Caz:

As a PLD main

Judging by your posts, you only play welfare content, so you're not a pld main. Clemency only useful on prog in 2 particular ultimates on 2 particular phases. That's it. Any other case of clemency in non retarded dungeon content is a dps loss.

Welfare content? You're one of those toxic raiders that the MMO genre can do without. You're also just disrespectful in general, telling someone that how they play means the job they play is not their main.

I've been tanking for over 15 years across multiple MMOs. I've done server first progression and I've done what you derogatorily call "welfare content". And always there are elitists like you that poison the community.

[Blue Thunder]

Originally posted by Caz:

As a PLD main, if I see my HP consistently sitting under 50%, I'll start healing myself.

You lost me right there. Here's a tip for you: Healers only need to keep you alive, not at max HP. And for the record, I didn't say that the use of Clemency is bad, I simply said that dispensing healing left and right as a PLD is terrible play, which is what both you and the OP seem to do because "Oh no, me and the party aren't at full Health, better pop my own heals and waste mana", disregarding that the healers have better toolkits to heal the entire party and are most likely waiting for the right moment to use them for maximum efficiency. An example I'll bring you that most likely is what make you piss your pants is when you have an Astrologian. I'm sure you know this, but Essential Dignity, which is an instant cast CD, heals more the lower your HP is, so an Astro not healing you until the last second is what they hope for in order to maximize their healing done.

You also seem to be bringing up the use of Provoke as profanity. Sure, the reckless use of Provoke while already in combat is not good play in most situations, which I take you imply you see other tanks provoking as part of their rotation, but just in case: pulling with Provoke is not bad play, as it has longer range than the Ranged skill tanks have, it also since the release of Shadowbringer no longer does it simply put you at the top of the enmity list, but also grants you a significant amount of enmity. So if you are in a dungeon and you see a tank pulling with Provoke, they are just using their tools to their advantadge in that situation.