The Expert Dungeon unlocked in Solution Nine

[maestro]

.... worst piece of trash ever designed.

I can't fathom how a team that usually designs awesome dungeons and bosses somehow slipped on a banana peel and designed this absolute turd.

The first boss, yeah, let's constantly have these stupid dolls marching across the battlefield randomly, have them grab you and then make you unable to do anything for 10 seconds at a time while the boss is constantly pelting you with AoEs you need to avoid... ya, real fair.

The 2nd boss, let's put out a dozen teacups, put ghosts in 2 of them and then spin them all around for 5-8 seconds while you're trying to heal or do rotations or what-not and you're supposed to magically remember which teapots had the ghosts?

Ya right, suuuure. Whatever.

First time I ever abandoned a duty in my entire time playing XIV, some 105d on my character and many expert roulettes. This is definitely going to be an instant-abandon.

Worst dungeon ever designed, period.

[Raansu]

Oprindeligt skrevet af FreshMint:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Raansu:

Casuals? Pay the bills? The ones that play a game for a few weeks before moving on to something else? lawl. The long term and most dedicated players are never the casuals.

You may not like it but the truth is that for gaming in general it's the casual gamers that make up the largest playerbase.
These are the kinds of people that would play the game for the story or to hang out with friends, not resub every month to get together to push themselves in the most difficult content there is.

Compared between (for example) like a million players of which a hundred thousand come back every month for the difficult content and the rest occasionally resubs for the story, it's clear where most of the money comes from.

Your post is literally proving my point without even realizing it lol. Most casuals sub for only 3 or 4 months out of the year for whatever update drops. Midcore/hardcore players are subbed year round.

[FreshMint]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Raansu:

Oprindeligt skrevet af FreshMint:

You may not like it but the truth is that for gaming in general it's the casual gamers that make up the largest playerbase.
These are the kinds of people that would play the game for the story or to hang out with friends, not resub every month to get together to push themselves in the most difficult content there is.

Compared between (for example) like a million players of which a hundred thousand come back every month for the difficult content and the rest occasionally resubs for the story, it's clear where most of the money comes from.

Your post is literally proving my point without even realizing it lol. Most casuals sub for only 3 or 4 months out of the year for whatever update drops. Midcore/hardcore players are subbed year round.

If the casuals only pay once every patch (lets assume 3 times a year) that means hardcore dedicated players that sub every month pay roughly 4 times as much, this would mean that in order to be the more lucrative 'group' it would have to consist of over a quarter of the playerbase.
There's no telling how large both groups are though since there's no official data.

Fortunately, Square just takes the middle road and tries to pander to both groups; make story playable for the casual crowd and give the more dedicated fanbase difficult high-end content or the usual MMO fluff (housing etc).
Both groups are of near equal value, but the biggest (or perhaps easiest?) gaming market nowadays is still the casuals.

[maestro]

This notion that all casuals only sub for patches is stupid.

First, you're not even defining what a "casual" is, and second, you're assuming everybody is casual in the same way.

There are casuals who dive into crafting and market barons and they certainly are not going to only log in during the patches, but yet they don't do savage raids.

There's casuals who RP and casuals who are into the housing scene, and the latter literally MUST remain subbed all year round. Like literally anybody who owns a house, must keep their sub up.

Or do you think Hardcores are the only people who own homes?

[Artos]

Oprindeligt skrevet af maestro:

This notion that all casuals only sub for patches is stupid.

First, you're not even defining what a "casual" is, and second, you're assuming everybody is casual in the same way.

There are casuals who dive into crafting and market barons and they certainly are not going to only log in during the patches, but yet they don't do savage raids.

There's casuals who RP and casuals who are into the housing scene, and the latter literally MUST remain subbed all year round. Like literally anybody who owns a house, must keep their sub up.

Or do you think Hardcores are the only people who own homes?

I personally wouldn't call players that HAVE TO LOG IN on a monthly basis a casual player.

Whether its crafting, roleplaying or housing, they are also a hardcore players, just mastering a different section of the game.

Various online websites define a casual player differently but they always come to the same conclusion

"A casual gamer doesn't place their gaming as a first priority"

"Individuals who play video games, but do not spend a significant part of their time playing or learning about games"

Etc...

In short, those that don't stay for long and don't care about each small bits of content the game adds.

Now despite it all. There always be more casual players, simply because they "rotate". We have new players, we have people that are playing MSQ or just finished it and we have returning players. All of them are casuals and all of those casuals are VERY vocal, they wanna share their experience, so they talk, there is simply more of them, than Hardcores who usually accept whatever SE throws at them. Yeah, hardcores might complain, but usually its a thread 1 in a 100.

While yes, hardcores do pay non stop, but imo there is simply less of them. SE counts on returning players and new players. The more new players join, the more will come back and sometimes big short term income is better than small long term income.

[maestro]

There's different metrics by which one can measure "casualness".

Are they casual in terms of endgame progression?
Are they casual in terms of how much time they spend in game?
Are they casual in terms of crafting?

When we're talking about endgame raiding, I think the best definition of "casual" is one that pertains solely towards endgame progression, thus, someone who doesn't really care about doing much endgame progression.

This kind of casual either does not do Extreme/Savage/Ultimates at all, or maybe just pecks at it a little here-and-there. Or maybe they'll just do the odd extreme with their FC when they're short a person and leave it at that.

There's plenty of people like this, and they spend plenty of time in-game, they just don't do raiding.

WoW has these kinds of players too; there are players who spend 20, 30, 40 hours a week in-game but never completed a single Normal/Heroic/Mythic Raid and never touched M+ or PvP.

Heck, I myself am one such person. Between Wrath and MoP, I probably did 20+ hours a week in WoW. Easy. Maybe more. This was back when I had a parttime job and I couldn't find anything better despite looking for a job. I wasn't a raider though, nor did I do any PvP. But if we go solely by time metrics, then you're saying I wasn't a casual when pretty much any WoW player would say that I was.

These players are still considered "casuals" despite how much time they spend in game. These are usually the crafters, and the people who are leveling alts and just sticking to solo outdoor content.

EDIT: And I would like to remind you that despite the fact I never cleared a single Extreme, Savage, Unreal, or Ultimate... my subscription has been going since late ARR. I started the game in early ARR, got bored with it near the end of ARR, picked it back up at some time later, and my subscription has been going ever since.

I do indeed take breaks from the game, but I don't stop paying the subs because I'm rarely gone for more than 3-4 weeks. My FC has several players who have similar habits and I'm willing to bet that many social FCs have players like this.

Fact is, I'd wager a guess that people who participate in Endgame raiding are more likely to cancel their sub in anger over some silly little change they don't like, while the casuals are willing to endure almost anything, so long as they can still find fun in the game.

[Tyrone Biggums]

Oprindeligt skrevet af maestro:

.... worst piece of trash ever designed.

I can't fathom how a team that usually designs awesome dungeons and bosses somehow slipped on a banana peel and designed this absolute turd.

The first boss, yeah, let's constantly have these stupid dolls marching across the battlefield randomly, have them grab you and then make you unable to do anything for 10 seconds at a time while the boss is constantly pelting you with AoEs you need to avoid... ya, real fair.

The 2nd boss, let's put out a dozen teacups, put ghosts in 2 of them and then spin them all around for 5-8 seconds while you're trying to heal or do rotations or what-not and you're supposed to magically remember which teapots had the ghosts?

Ya right, suuuure. Whatever.

First time I ever abandoned a duty in my entire time playing XIV, some 105d on my character and many expert roulettes. This is definitely going to be an instant-abandon.

Worst dungeon ever designed, period.

tell me you never clear content without telling me you never clear content

people are doing savage while this guy is gonna prog expert roulette

[maestro]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Tyrone Biggums:

tell me you never clear content without telling me you never clear content

people are doing savage while this guy is gonna prog expert roulette

I don't need the game to measure my self-worth, thanks.

I just log in to have a little fun, and pass some time. It's not a 2nd job to me.

But thank you for reinforcing the image of your average toxic savage raider who looks down their nose at anybody who doesn't do savage like it's some kind of measuring stick for how much a person is worth.

[Archangel]

Oprindeligt skrevet af maestro:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Tyrone Biggums:

tell me you never clear content without telling me you never clear content

people are doing savage while this guy is gonna prog expert roulette

I don't need the game to measure my self-worth, thanks.

I just log in to have a little fun, and pass some time. It's not a 2nd job to me.

But thank you for reinforcing the image of your average toxic savage raider who looks down their nose at anybody who doesn't do savage like it's some kind of measuring stick for how much a person is worth.

It's great that YoshiP is now trying to attract them isn't it? The board probably thinks FFXIV can become WoW and get all the WoW players (they aren't gamers, they are WoW players though).

[maestro]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Archangel:

It's great that YoshiP is now trying to attract them isn't it? The board probably thinks FFXIV can become WoW and get all the WoW players (they aren't gamers, they are WoW players though).

I think Yoshi-P kinda forgot what exactly made the game surge in popularity in the first place.

But then, Blizz did the same stupid thing at the beginning of Cataclysm and had to walk that back, too.

.... and then they did it AGAIN in WoD, lol.

They listened to the hardcores, put out hard Heroics in Cataclysm. Then they had to nerf them when casuals stopped doing dungeons and subs dropped suddenly.

Then, after Cataclysm, they released MoP and sub numbers were good until it overstayed its welcome, and for some stupid reason they slipped on a banana peel and tried to make the dungeons harder in WoD again and because raiders whined about dailies they decided to remove *ALL* dailies except for 1 single quest and then they had to walk that back, too! They had to reintroduce dailies with Tanaan Jungle because people were tired of doing nothing but filling a % meter in once a day.

Then they made world quests in Legion and that's what we have now, world quests which is a direct downgrade to Daily Quests... at least with Daily Quests you didn't have to go all over the map to do 1 quest here, 1 quest there...

So yeah, it kinda feels like XIV is going down the same path Blizz did, of forgetting what made the game awesome only to have to walk it back later.

I am not against them adding new content for the hardcores, heck they're even talking about Savage Alliance Raids, and that's awesome even though I'll never do them myself.

But I still disagree with pushing the more casual people out of 4 mans. Like, 4-mans are the only grouped content that the casuals really have depending on how hard the Alliance/Normal Raids are.

[Raansu]

Oprindeligt skrevet af maestro:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Archangel:

It's great that YoshiP is now trying to attract them isn't it? The board probably thinks FFXIV can become WoW and get all the WoW players (they aren't gamers, they are WoW players though).

I think Yoshi-P kinda forgot what exactly made the game surge in popularity in the first place.

The game has always been on an upward trend, and it was significantly more difficult/nuanced from ARR to Stormblood compared to today. They didn't start shifting away and making it more simple until shadowbringers, which is right around the time Yoshi-P started working on FF16. This is also the time that saw the lowest player retention. The only reason it spiked at the end was because of the WoW drama and most of those people have already gone back to WoW.

So ya, God forbid FFXIV goes back to its roots and makes content just a tad difficult and putting the "expert" back into expert roulette. They are not going to make the leveling dungeons overly difficult, but if you make it to level cap (the damn cap is 100 now) you should be able to handle a modicum of difficult in a EXPERT roulette.

[maestro]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Raansu:

So ya, God forbid FFXIV goes back to its roots and makes content just a tad difficult and putting the "expert" back into expert roulette. They are not going to make the leveling dungeons overly difficult, but if you make it to level cap (the damn cap is 100 now) you should be able to handle a modicum of difficult in a EXPERT roulette.

It's not even necessarily about me, maybe I'm tired of wipes wasting my time, when other people can't dodge the crap?

I'm not saying I'm perfect, I get hit sometimes too, but when the whole group is eating vuln stacks to unclear markers, tight timing, and sometimes ridiculous lag, it's not very fun especially if you happen to be a healer.

[Archangel]

Oprindeligt skrevet af maestro:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Archangel:

It's great that YoshiP is now trying to attract them isn't it? The board probably thinks FFXIV can become WoW and get all the WoW players (they aren't gamers, they are WoW players though).

snip

Honestly I saw it coming, YoshiP has said and done things in live letters basically saying he wants to turn it an old school MMO.

I mean in one of them he pretty much outright said dungeons were too easy, then don't worry they aren't going to get hard. And to me, even through the translator the don't worry part sounded condescending. To me it was obvious he was lying.

So I have voted with my wallet.

Also gonna be interesting to see what they do with The Arcadian, because, you know, "raids are supposed to be hard".

But as I've said previously, Even if I quit, I got several good years and a mostly good story, so whatever.

[Archangel]

Oprindeligt skrevet af maestro:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Raansu:

So ya, God forbid FFXIV goes back to its roots and makes content just a tad difficult and putting the "expert" back into expert roulette. They are not going to make the leveling dungeons overly difficult, but if you make it to level cap (the damn cap is 100 now) you should be able to handle a modicum of difficult in a EXPERT roulette.

It's not even necessarily about me, maybe I'm tired of wipes wasting my time, when other people can't dodge the crap?

I'm not saying I'm perfect, I get hit sometimes too, but when the whole group is eating vuln stacks to unclear markers, tight timing, and sometimes ridiculous lag, it's not very fun especially if you happen to be a healer.

I wouldn't waste time arguing with him, he's your standard sweaty who thinks every game needs to be Dark Souls. It's also obvious he's drank the kool aid and thinks hardcores are the MMO core audience.

[maestro]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Archangel:

I wouldn't waste time arguing with him, he's your standard sweaty who thinks every game needs to be Dark Souls. It's also obvious he's drank the kool aid and thinks hardcores are the MMO core audience.

He strikes me as the type that advocates against difficulty sliders in singleplayer games, like somehow my singleplayer game somehow affects his singleplayer game.

I've run into people like that and they are pretty cringe.

[Ashe]

By level 100 content should have something that makes the dungeon tangibly difficult, even if only slightly.

If a mechanic becomes too hard then you're allowed to drop your rotation to focus on mechs. There's no dps check to meet. Stay alive and you win. Once you have a handle start to throw in your rotation.

Oprindeligt skrevet af maestro:

It's not even necessarily about me, maybe I'm tired of wipes wasting my time, when other people can't dodge the crap?

I'm not saying I'm perfect, I get hit sometimes too, but when the whole group is eating vuln stacks to unclear markers, tight timing, and sometimes ridiculous lag, it's not very fun especially if you happen to be a healer.

If it's not your lack of skill but others then try to share your strats with them.