Paladin vs. Warrior in Dungeons.

[Giganx]

I'm kind of torn between Paladin and Warrior.

Visually and gameplay wise I like the Paladin best, but the Warrior has one very important thing that makes it very difficult to pass up: Warrior is immune to bad healers. No matter how bad your healer is you can wall to wall pull with no fear of dying; since nascent is basically a full heal plus 7 seconds of completely invulnerability on a 25 second CD. Having that plus 2 other OCD heals means you're pretty much unkillable.

Now Paladin has clemency; which is strong but it guts your DPS and is generally a source of conflict in the group. Using Clemency is basically telling your healer he's bad, so you need to gut your own DPS to do his job for him. A lot of healers who see you using clemency take instant offense, and it becomes a whole thing.

I'll probably end up sticking with PLD because when it comes down to it aesthetics always end up mattering most. Still, Warrior is hard to pass up for those guaranteed smooth runs.

[weiss]

hmmm k, next time when i go into roulette and having a warrior in expert or lv 90 will i not heal. lets see how long the warrior survives. i am pretty sure he will die when he does the usual wall to wall pull =D.

and if he or she asks why the heck i didnt healed will i link this topic here and telling them i just wanted to try if it is true or not ^.^.

[Alternity]

Originally posted by Chiro:

hmmm k, next time when i go into roulette and having a warrior in expert or lv 90 will i not heal. lets see how long the warrior survives. i am pretty sure he will die when he does the usual wall to wall pull =D.

and if he or she asks why the heck i didnt healed will i link this topic here and telling them i just wanted to try if it is true or not ^.^.

I've seen multiple warriors say to the healer to not heal them and then they proceed to do a w2w pull and they don't die, healer is going full green DPS. It's all about knowing how to use your mitigation. Obviously it can also be dependant on the group's DPS, if it takes too long to kill mobs there's a good chance the tank is going to run out of mitigation

[Giganx]

Originally posted by Chiro:

hmmm k, next time when i go into roulette and having a warrior in expert or lv 90 will i not heal. lets see how long the warrior survives. i am pretty sure he will die when he does the usual wall to wall pull =D.

and if he or she asks why the heck i didnt healed will i link this topic here and telling them i just wanted to try if it is true or not ^.^.

It'll always kind of depend on the rest of the group and the specific dungeon. In most recent dungeons a wall to wall pull is like 2-3 groups of enemies, and if the DPS is decent a WAR can probably do those without a Healer.

If the WAR isn't ilvl synched, the enemies are outliving the WAR's mitigation or it's one of the crazy pulls like in Anyder, Bardam's Mettle or Mt Gulg, the Healer will eventually have to pitch in at least a little or the WAR will die.

Saying WAR's just flat out don't ever need healers to W2W in dungeons is obviously an exaggeration. You can survive levels of bad and absent healing that other tanks can't, though.

[*Logan*]

Originally posted by Jethro:

WAR is only god mode past lvl 56. Lot of dungeons below are up to the twelve if you survive big consecutive pulls

Correct.
I guess this paladin op forgot about maps such as Aurum Vale.

[chipofsalt]

Originally posted by Gigan:

Originally posted by Chiro:

hmmm k, next time when i go into roulette and having a warrior in expert or lv 90 will i not heal. lets see how long the warrior survives. i am pretty sure he will die when he does the usual wall to wall pull =D.

and if he or she asks why the heck i didnt healed will i link this topic here and telling them i just wanted to try if it is true or not ^.^.

It'll always kind of depend on the rest of the group and the specific dungeon. In most recent dungeons a wall to wall pull is like 2-3 groups of enemies, and if the DPS is decent a WAR can probably do those without a Healer.

If the WAR isn't ilvl synched, the enemies are outliving the WAR's mitigation or it's one of the crazy pulls like in Anyder, Bardam's Mettle or Mt Gulg, the Healer will eventually have to pitch in at least a little or the WAR will die.

Saying WAR's just flat out don't ever need healers to W2W in dungeons is obviously an exaggeration. You can survive levels of bad and absent healing that other tanks can't, though.

Current expansion max level dungeons are not the same as leveling ones. If you're at or above sync item level, you have a ridiculous amount of leeway for incoming damage. If your DPS are as well, then mobs should be dying before warrior needs to use BW a second time. If your warrior can't handle w2w pulls in 90 dungeons, then their gear is either bad, DPS is really slow and the healer can't compensate, or the warrior isn't using bloodwhetting.

Also, just want to reiterate: the original person said EXPERT or 90 DUNGEONS. Warrior should literally be able to deal with w2w pretty much on their own if your DPS aren't potatoes.

There is a noticeable difference between 90 dungeons and the leveling ones. You can't really cheese the leveling dungeons with item level as hard as you can the 90 ones. There's a ridiculous gap in endgame dungeons between min ilvl requirement and the sync item level.

[weiss]

why did you mentitioned healer in your post o.o the whole point was to not heal the warrior at all because peoples say "warrior can survive without heal"
so, your "and the healer can't compensate" shouldnt be there.
all i got told is "warrior can survive without heal" why do warriors the expert and lv 90 dungeons not on their own, why do they queue up for expert and and lv 90 (assumingly for getting the weekly causalities).

btw i did said thing and the 3 warriors i had was not happy. you could argue now "those warriors are noobs" but so said all 3 warriors that it is totally ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ whats getting said here.

iunno i only managed to get 3 of i think i did 12 expert runs *shrugs* 2 of them was ilvl 609 and 617 (average) the lastone had only 601 but it would still be enough right? in 2 runs had we 1 reaper and a samurai and in the 3rd one if i remember me right was it 2 dancers.

anyways, all 3 was not happy after they asked "why didnt you heal?" and i was like well, they say in the steam forums warrior survives without heal then got told to not believe that nonsense.

oh ya edit, all 3 was in troja o.o i posted the link to them too but i guess they didnt looked into it aka i wish they would´ve written something here '-'

[Alternity]

Originally posted by Chiro:

why do warriors the expert and lv 90 dungeons not on their own, why do they queue up for expert and and lv 90 (assumingly for getting the weekly causalities).

That's obvious, time. Also, you can't queue roulettes on your own.

[weiss]

oh ya true the queue on ya own is a valid point ... i forgot about that o...o

[chipofsalt]

Originally posted by Chiro:

why did you mentitioned healer in your post o.o the whole point was to not heal the warrior at all because peoples say "warrior can survive without heal"
so, your "and the healer can't compensate" shouldnt be there.
all i got told is "warrior can survive without heal" why do warriors the expert and lv 90 dungeons not on their own, why do they queue up for expert and and lv 90 (assumingly for getting the weekly causalities).

btw i did said thing and the 3 warriors i had was not happy. you could argue now "those warriors are noobs" but so said all 3 warriors that it is totally ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ whats getting said here.

iunno i only managed to get 3 of i think i did 12 expert runs *shrugs* 2 of them was ilvl 609 and 617 (average) the lastone had only 601 but it would still be enough right? in 2 runs had we 1 reaper and a samurai and in the 3rd one if i remember me right was it 2 dancers.

anyways, all 3 was not happy after they asked "why didnt you heal?" and i was like well, they say in the steam forums warrior survives without heal then got told to not believe that nonsense.

oh ya edit, all 3 was in troja o.o i posted the link to them too but i guess they didnt looked into it aka i wish they would´ve written something here '-'

I legitimately have no idea what your point is.

The idea is that the gap between minimum required item level and the gear sync item level is gigantic in expert dungeons; much larger than leveling dungeons. It is very easy to get away with 1 WAR + 3 DPS in expert dungeons when everyone is nearing that item level.

If you're doing the most recent dungeon, then that'd be i630 on everyone. If you have 3 DPS in your party with a warrior, mobs will die before bloodwhetting comes up a second time.

Expecting random players in duty finder to be competent enough OR geared enough for this is a total crapshoot. But yes, it's definitely doable without a healer. I've done it.

[MOSLEY]

Originally posted by causality:

Originally posted by MOSLEY:

so you have to do weird stuff to align with raid buffs.

Lol. You press buttons on cooldown and all your FoF/Req will align with raid buffs, unless you die or something. :cuphead:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/49#class=Tanks

Then why is PLD so much lower under aDPS than it is under rDPS? Why are they reworking the job in 6.3? Could it possibly be because its hardest hitting skills tend not to align with raid buffs? Shocking.

[causality]

Originally posted by MOSLEY:

Originally posted by causality:

Lol. You press buttons on cooldown and all your FoF/Req will align with raid buffs, unless you die or something.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/49#class=Tanks

Then why is PLD so much lower under aDPS than it is under rDPS? Why are they reworking the job in 6.3? Could it possibly be because its hardest hitting skills tend not to align with raid buffs? Shocking.

Much wow. Paladin does 1.3% less rDPS than Dork Knight. Those poor Paladins can't fit all their GCDs in 20 seconds! That rework is going to be huge! HUGE!

I hope Yoshi P and friends stop listening to the parse monkeys.

[MOSLEY]

Originally posted by causality:

Originally posted by MOSLEY:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/49#class=Tanks

Then why is PLD so much lower under aDPS than it is under rDPS? Why are they reworking the job in 6.3? Could it possibly be because its hardest hitting skills tend not to align with raid buffs? Shocking.

Much wow. Paladin does 1.3% less rDPS than Dork Knight. Those poor Paladins can't fit all their GCDs in 20 seconds! That rework is going to be huge! HUGE! :lunar2019piginablanket:

I hope Yoshi P and friends stop listening to the parse monkeys.

Why would you look at rDPS when none of the jobs that you're comparing provide raid buffs? Look at both rDPS AND aDPS and the problem will become clear.

If you look at rDPS, PLD is in 3rd place and only a tiny bit behind DRK.
If you switch to aDPS (which is a more accurate reflection of actual damage done), PLD drops to dead last. The reason for this is because they forgot to change PLD when they made the rest of the game revolve around 2 minute burst windows. Its damage looks fine if you pretend that raid buffs don't exist, but once you take raid buffs into account it becomes clear that the job doesn't fit the current meta.

They don't need to listen to "parse monkeys" but people who understand how the game works would be a good place to start.

[causality]

Originally posted by MOSLEY:

Originally posted by causality:

Much wow. Paladin does 1.3% less rDPS than Dork Knight. Those poor Paladins can't fit all their GCDs in 20 seconds! That rework is going to be huge! HUGE!

I hope Yoshi P and friends stop listening to the parse monkeys.

--but once you take raid buffs into account it becomes clear that the job doesn't fit the current meta.

Citation and source on this? I just finished a P5s-7s pug reclear with a Paladin in our group. Heck, Paladins were used in world first clears. Your assertion that something doesn't fit the 'meta' because it does roughly 1% less rDPS (or whatever metric you fancy using, you do you) at max percentiles is hilarious.

[MOSLEY]

Originally posted by causality:

Originally posted by MOSLEY:

--but once you take raid buffs into account it becomes clear that the job doesn't fit the current meta.

Citation and source on this? I just finished a P5s-7s pug reclear with a Paladin in our group. Heck, Paladins were used in world first clears. Your assertion that something doesn't fit the 'meta' because it does roughly 1% less rDPS (or whatever metric you fancy using, you do you) at max percentiles is hilarious. :lunar2019piginablanket:

Why are you asking for a source when I just linked you hard data?

Oh, you recleared a raid that came out months ago and is tuned for 20 ilvl below where people are at now. Very cool.

There was 1 PLD in the first 50 P8S kills. >75% were DRK/GNB comps. WF was GNB/DRK.

[causality]

Originally posted by MOSLEY:

Originally posted by causality:

Citation and source on this? I just finished a P5s-7s pug reclear with a Paladin in our group. Heck, Paladins were used in world first clears. Your assertion that something doesn't fit the 'meta' because it does roughly 1% less rDPS (or whatever metric you fancy using, you do you) at max percentiles is hilarious.

Why are you asking for a source when I just linked you hard data?

All you linked was a page from fflogs showing that Paladins do 1% less rDPS than a Dark Knight, as if trying to hammer your own interpretation of parsed data that certain jobs are not suited for current content or 'meta' to encapsulate this bizarre opinion as absolute fact.

Originally posted by MOSLEY:

There was 1 PLD in the first 50 P8S kills. >75% were DRK/GNB comps. WF was GNB/DRK.

So what exactly are you trying to convey or impress upon everyone here? You do realize there are more than 50 total parsed clears? Why are you (faulty) polling from a very specific subset of data when over thousands of logs exist that demonstrate people clear with Paladin on a daily basis, which runs contrary to your opinion that they are not 'meta'? Do you work for Fox News by any chance? Because that was a skillful display of truncating the axis so to speak.