Yo, DPS. Stop pulling the whole room.

[Sardorim]

Let the Tank set the tempo. If they aren't going fast enough then ask them first if they want pulling help or if they're able to pull more (and if the healer able to adjust to that as well). Don't just decide to pull everything then get mad if the Tank cannot handle it or just lets you die. It's really rude in Randos to do that to Tanks - especially newer Tanks who are still learning.

Geez, no wonder there's a tanking shortage. Who wants to deal with that headache?

[Maeshone]

Nguyên văn bởi MOSLEY:

Cleave isn't an issue. Positioning mobs so that everything is tightly packed and the entire floor isn't covered by telegraphs is an issue.

... Yes? That is literally what I said. Packing the group is not hard even if you don't have Enmity the entire pull.

Nguyên văn bởi MOSLEY:

Oh, so when you said DPS jobs were harder, you meant ninja.

That's Samurai, and I used it as an example. Ninjas have mudras to cast and reset, Dragoon has Disembowel, Black Mage has Enochian (granted, this is easy to maintain out of combat but you don't want overcap Xenoglossy), Summoner has DoT and trances where they don't want waste GCDs, Bard has DoT and Song uptime, Monk has their stance system as well as a times damage buff that I don't remember the name of. Point being, they all have systems to incentivise moving between group fast in order to maintain uptime.
A lot of these will be easier to reapply come Endwalker, when damage buffs will be applied from AoE combos too, but we're still 25 days out from Endwalker

Nguyên văn bởi MOSLEY:

Nope. You need to walk those mobs back to the tank and you've cost the party more time than you saved by pulling.

I don't. I keep pace with the tank no matter what role I play, and when the tank stops if I have aggro I go stand on the tank for a few second so they can grab it before i move out if I'm ranged. But I stay close because cone AoEs are easier to dodge the closer you are to the target.

[bri]

Nguyên văn bởi bibron:

Nguyên văn bởi Seraphita:

High disagree... I play tank by doing groups of mobs and not wall to wall and I'm doing fine. There is NOTHING in the game that dictates that tanks should be doing wall to wall. I hate the fact some people pretend like it's "disrespectful" to others to not play THEIR way when the game never said anything about being forced to pull everything in the world in one go.

It's almost as bad as trying to parse and harass dps for their lack of "max potential". Can we just let people enjoy the game without making them feel like ♥♥♥♥ for not following some kind of high standard? From what I understood, Yoshi wants people to enjoy FF14 at their pace...

This form of pressure really is starting to feel almost toxic in some dungeons and we don't need that. Of course, I am not arguing against YOUR way to play if it works for you but I do not want anybody to force that on me. I don't play badly just because I don't play this way.

It's really annoying as a healer if the tank only pulls a pack at a time.
It makes everything take unnecessarily longer and there is no reason to do so.
I imagine dps feel the same way.

Nothing is stopping people who feel that way from pre-forming groups to speed run the content with like-minded individuals. If you go full random roulette you get what you get and should stick to the role you signed up for, otherwise you're griefing the other group members. If you want to pull then be the tank.

[bibron]

Nguyên văn bởi bri:

Nguyên văn bởi bibron:

It's really annoying as a healer if the tank only pulls a pack at a time.
It makes everything take unnecessarily longer and there is no reason to do so.
I imagine dps feel the same way.

Nothing is stopping people who feel that way from pre-forming groups to speed run the content with like-minded individuals. If you go full random roulette you get what you get and should stick to the role you signed up for, otherwise you're griefing the other group members. If you want to pull then be the tank.

Same goes the other way around.
Why should a group of four adjust to one person? (assuming the person is not a sprout)

[Malfeasance]

How is this thread even this big at this point? Tanks pull as much as the group can handle and you kill it, it's real basic.

Nguyên văn bởi Sardorim:

Suggesting that the Tank should set the Tempo caused the power abusing mods to ban me off their Discord for "Promoting Griefing" because I didn't support DPS walking over tanks.

I'll be completely honest: my first instinct is to doubt this claim, because it's real easy to say you were completely reasonable and did nothing wrong while painting the opposing party as unreasonable. That said, if what you say is true then you're probably better off anyway.

I find all this grandstanding particularly funny considering it's over dungeons, of all things, content that falls over with even average play.

[Maeshone]

Nguyên văn bởi bri:

Nothing is stopping people who feel that way from pre-forming groups to speed run the content with like-minded individuals. If you go full random roulette you get what you get and should stick to the role you signed up for, otherwise you're griefing the other group members. If you want to pull then be the tank.

It's not "speedrunning", it's playing the game as intended as that should be obvious if you look at the way dungeons are designed and skills work. Everything made to be more efficient more enemies you pull, and the dungeons hard cap you to two or three groups.
Pulling a single group at a time can rightly be called "slowrunning" and since it's obviously not the way the game is designed, why shouldn't slowrunners be the ones preforming groups with like-mindes individuals instead of imposing their playstyle on others?

[MOSLEY]

Nguyên văn bởi Maeshone:

... Yes? That is literally what I said. Packing the group is not hard even if you don't have Enmity the entire pull.

It can be though. Most pulls have a couple of those awkward enemies that are harder to move around and fighting for enmity just makes things more awkward than they have to be.

Nguyên văn bởi Maeshone:

That's Samurai, and I used it as an example. Ninjas have mudras to cast and reset, Dragoon has Disembowel, Black Mage has Enochian (granted, this is easy to maintain out of combat but you don't want overcap Xenoglossy), Summoner has DoT and trances where they don't want waste GCDs, Bard has DoT and Song uptime, Monk has their stance system as well as a times damage buff that I don't remember the name of. Point being, they all have systems to incentivise moving between group fast in order to maintain uptime.
A lot of these will be easier to reapply come Endwalker, when damage buffs will be applied from AoE combos too, but we're still 25 days out from Endwalker

My bad, I don't play either of them.

Outside of the couple of jobs that are known to be more complex (and bearing in mind that summoner won't be one of them in a month), keeping uptime on something like disembowel is so easy that it makes rolling mitigations as a tank look challenging. DPS rotations are largely just simple flowcharts the same as healers/tanks.

Nguyên văn bởi Maeshone:

I don't. I keep pace with the tank no matter what role I play, and when the tank stops if I have aggro I go stand on the tank for a few second so they can grab it before i move out if I'm ranged. But I stay close because cone AoEs are easier to dodge the closer you are to the target.

Should you not be behind the tank so you can beat on the mobs while they run to the next pack? So much for saving time, I guess.

Tanks all have a ranged attack that generates additional enmity for a reason. Just let them do their thing.

[Maeshone]

Nguyên văn bởi MOSLEY:

It can be though. Most pulls have a couple of those awkward enemies that are harder to move around and fighting for enmity just makes things more awkward than they have to be.

I feel like those awkward enemies are mostly the ranged/caster mobs, and those are gonna end up being slightly awkward no matter what since you either need to LoS them or double back to park the rest of the group on them.

Nguyên văn bởi MOSLEY:

My bad, I don't play either of them.

Outside of the couple of jobs that are known to be more complex (and bearing in mind that summoner won't be one of them in a month), keeping uptime on something like disembowel is so easy that it makes rolling mitigations as a tank look challenging. DPS rotations are largely just simple flowcharts the same as healers/tanks.

Dragoons Disembowel is literally the only self buff in the game that isn't refreshed by the AoE combo (yet, EW plz soon) so a Dragoon will need to go into single target for 2 GCDs in order to refresh Disembowel. Easy on bosses, sure. Bit more of a pain on trash. But in general this point will be a lot more redundant come Endwalker.

Nguyên văn bởi MOSLEY:

Should you not be behind the tank so you can beat on the mobs while they run to the next pack? So much for saving time, I guess.

Tanks all have a ranged attack that generates additional enmity for a reason. Just let them do their thing.

I mean, I try, but... Sadly I am an EU resident stuck on US servers due to friends so sometimes running behind the mobs means my latency leaves me too far back to hit them reliably. Thankfully, mobs tend to stop in place in order to channel an AoE at the tank meaning I can hit them when they're Stranding still. But "keeping pace" means keeping the same speed, not necessarily running right next to them. In the end I arrive at the same position the tank is at usually within one GCD, meaning there is very little time between the tank planting and me losing aggro.

[MagicHp]

Nguyên văn bởi Red Monk:

Nguyên văn bởi MagicHp:

Of course pulling is part of the tank job, how is that even a question?!?

The argument to that is that any role can pull, it's sensible for a tank to pull but if anyone can do it and not wipe (if everyone does their role properly without ego getting involved) then you're still playing the game as intended.

Hum, have you read what I wrote or did you stop at the first line you quoted? ^^
I specifically adressed the "wipe" part... And the "why" tanks should pull and not others.....
With reasonable arguments and an open mind ;)

[Sardorim]

Nguyên văn bởi Maeshone:

Nguyên văn bởi Sardorim:

Then die if you pull it then. The Tank already has his pull and is dealing with that. A DPS deciding the Tank can hold more without asking the Tank if he/she is okay with it deserves kissing the ground.

And no, the End Goal isn't to kill everything in the Dungeon. Hence why a lot of Mobs are skipped and Endwalker is changing it where only the Bosses give EXP while the Mobs give 0.

No, the tank doesn't have "their pull" because I AM THE TANK. Again. I am a tank main. I pull wall to wall just like the game is designed to these days. If you don't, you are playing your role badly.

The only dungeons where you even can skip mobs are in ARR and as such are not relevant when discussing the current design of the game. Yes, the optional mobs in Stone Vigil and Aurum Vale are skipped. In every other dungeon in the game, you have to kill everything in order to proceed. But sure, I can reword it to "The end goal of the tank, the healer, and the DPS is killing the final boss of the dungeon." But that should have been easy enough to understand from my post and it's almost like you are being disingenuous by focusing on the wording of my post instead of the meaning. Funny that.

You pull it then you tank it.

If I'm the Healer in the run I will prioritize the Tank and the other DPS over the toxic DPS that couldn't let the Tank do the pulling. If they die then oh well. They'll learn eventually that if they wish to disrespect the Tank that much then they drop to the lowest on my healing priority. I'll only rez them in a pull if my Swiftcast is up. If it isn't then they can either run back or wait and kiss the ground while we clean up their screw up.

[Naoya]

I don't understand why a tank should -need- to ask for smaller pulls, when they're... y'know, the tank. If I want to guarantee wall to wall pulls, I'll play as tank myself. Because I know I can handle it. If a DPS happens to hit a target before me that I was gonna pull anyway, eh, I don't care.

But if I'm playing as DPS or Healer, obviously I'll adapt to the playstyle the tank is most comfortable with. If they pull wall to wall, great, I'm all for it. If they don't feel up to it for whatever reason, then I'll respect that. If a DPS wants to go faster, they're the ones who should be communicating and asking if the tank is okay to pull more, not running ahead and bringing a mob back to the tank without a word.

Because again, if you absolutely want everything to be pulled, then play tank, it's clearly the role for you.

[Maeshone]

Nguyên văn bởi Sardorim:

You pull it then you tank it.

If I'm the Healer in the run I will prioritize the Tank and the other DPS over the toxic DPS that couldn't let the Tank do the pulling. If they did then oh well. They'll learn eventually that if they wish to disrespect the Tank that much then they drop to the lowest on my healing priority. I'll only rez them in a pull if my Swiftcast is up. If it isn't then they can either run back or wait and kiss the ground while we clean up their screw up.

If you have multiple deaths per run when healing to the point where you don't have Swiftcast (a low 60 second CD) up to rez any accidental deaths, then the problem is likely with your healing and nothing else. I haven't had a death in a dungeon for the better part of a 1.5 years that wasn't someone botching a mechanic and eating too many vuln stacks to keep them up. And that is while playing as all 3 roles.

Taking enmity from a DPS is so easy it takes a single button press. At most two. If a DPS gets aggro they go stand next to the tank who is obviously AoEing, because that is the correct way to tank in order to keep enmity on large group. If they do, the tank automatically gets enmity on all enemies and the DPS loses enmity. The tank is now tanking and the DPS isn't.

Nguyên văn bởi Naoya:

I don't understand why a tank should -need- to ask for smaller pulls, when they're... y'know, the tank. If I want to guarantee wall to wall pulls, I'll play as tank myself. Because I know I can handle it. If a DPS happens to hit a target before that I was gonna pull anyway, eh, I don't care.

But if I'm playing as DPS or Healer, obviously I'll adapt to the playstyle the tank is most comfortable with. If they pull wall to wall, great, I'm all for it. If they don't feel up to it for whatever reason, then I'll respect that. If a DPS wants to go faster, they're the ones who should be communicating and asking if the tank is okay to pull more, not running ahead and bringing a mob back to the tank without a word.

Because again, if you absolutely want everything to be pulled, then play tank, it's clearly the role for you.

The tank would need to ask because the norm is wall to wall. When you go against the norm you do so at the benevolence of the rest of the group, so the least you can do is be polite and inform them about it. They can then decide if they are ok with it or votekick you to get a tank that will go wall to wall. Most people will be unwilling to wait for another tank and as such will accept it, but the person not wanting to go wall to wall is the outlier and as such should not do so at the expense of the other 3 players, but with their express approval.

[Generic-Raider]

Only had 1 dps ever run ahead like a full room ahead of us to pull so when he did it in a zone transaction part of the dungeon be for the tank even got there i decided just not to heal him

And as for tank pulling to much that def happens allot especially in lower level dungeons
i think they forget how little healing skills -especially oh ♥♥♥♥ ones- at low levels and they die

or they pull so many mobs there being hit by auto attacks all at once that takes 40% of there hp every 2sec sure if a blow every thing i got i can keep you alive for about 10sec then you die

been plenty of times tanks just go all out in pulling then die over and over again spend 5min on 5 pack of mobs that would could of killed in 2min if you pulled abit less

[Sunny]

Nguyên văn bởi Maeshone:

The tank would need to ask because the norm is wall to wall.

This is not true. Your preference does not a norm make.

[Naoya]

Nguyên văn bởi Seraphita:

It's fine but there's just a hick. I main healer myself and there may be situations where I can't heal enough (despite being 520 ilv). Sometimes the tank taking so much damage causes a real burnout on the healer. Obviously, it depends on the tank but you know. Not everyone plays the same. In my case, I don't really care as long as I can keep up with the party.

I never really know what to answer when I'm asked what pull size because I'm more than geared to heal anything and I know what all of my magics and skills do. The problem is that there's no ONE power level for tank so two tanks asking me the same questions could be very different. One with lower defense that I can't heal enough and one with high defense.

You can't ever truly know unless the tank is well prepared (and so is the healer since their stats affect the regen and direct heal amount). Everything go hands in hands. It's a coop game and everyone must be able to pull their own weight in order to have the best run possible.

That's understandable, though I've rarely had it happen when playing healer myself. Most tanks, myself included, know what they're doing, and I've handled large pulls even with healers who barely knew how to play their jobs (Including some weirdo healer with an RP tag that did nothing but spam cure 2.... In a level 80 dungeon. Had to use invuln just to survive with that.)

Generally as tank I will pull everything unless the healer specifically asks me to take it slow. And that's a request I will certainly acquiesce, since I can understand a healer feeling a bit overwhelmed. I doubt a healer who knows what they're doing like you would have any trouble.

Nguyên văn bởi Maeshone:

The tank would need to ask because the norm is wall to wall. When you go against the norm you do so at the benevolence of the rest of the group, so the least you can do is be polite and inform them about it. They can then decide if they are ok with it or votekick you to get a tank that will go wall to wall. Most people will be unwilling to wait for another tank and as such will accept it, but the person not wanting to go wall to wall is the outlier and as such should not do so at the expense of the other 3 players, but with their express approval.

I feel that's a bit disingenuous. As a tank main who is exactly the kind of player who pulls everything all the time, I've never felt the need to push my standards on other tanks or like my way of playing was a norm. Another tank stopping after pulling one pack is enough non-verbal communication for me to tell that the tank doesn't feel comfortable going further. I never felt that was a disrespect to me, or that it was at my expense. Tanks don't need my permission to play how they want to play.

[Maeshone]

Nguyên văn bởi Sunny:

This is not true. Your preference does not a norm make.

Literally 95% of all dungeons I have run in the last year are wall to wall pulls. This is when playing as a even mix of all 3 roles. And I'm talking Expert Roulette, lvl 80 Roulette, AND 50/60/70 roulette. How is that not the norm then?

Nguyên văn bởi Seraphita:

And yeah, no idea who made up that the norm or standard of FF14 is wall to wall because it isn't and never was. Pulling a lot is not wrong if the party can do it but mobs aren't supposed to follow a miles to another spot anyway. FF14 was NOT designed to be like this. Players are who made it that way because it's a possible outcome. It's also a very difficult path to play.

Enemies have no leash distance in dungeons in this game, they will follow you until you stop. The dungeon will mot let you pull too much because there are gates that block your progress every two or three packs that will not open until all the enemies are dead. Tank mitigation is more efficient the more enemies are hitting you, and DPS skills do more damage per GCD the more enemies you hit. All of these very deliberate design choices hint at pulling the most enemies you can is the designed for way to play the game. If you have enough item level to be let into the dungeon you have good enough gear to pull wall to wall. I'm speaking from experience here.

Nguyên văn bởi Naoya:

I feel that's a bit disingenuous. As a tank main who is exactly the kind of player who pulls everything all the time, I've never felt the need to push my standards on other tanks or like my way of playing was a norm. Another tank stopping after pulling one pack is enough non-verbal communication for me to tell that the tank doesn't feel comfortable going further. I never felt that was a disrespect to me, or that it was at my expense. Tanks don't need my permission to play how they want to play.

By that same virtue, DPS also don't need permission to play the game how they want but that is literally the entire premise of this thread.