What is with this new Trend, "Healers DPS"

[Aylon]

I've gone into a few dungeons as healer recently, and it's terrible. I haven't played healer since the second week of shadowbringers, but since then apparently healers DPSing is a thing now? BS, groups keep asking me to not do my job of healing, but instead do DPS, I think that is ridiculous. I shouldn't be forced to do damage as a healer, I shouldn't be berated for HEALING and NOT DPSING it should be the other way around, and im tired of groups asking me to do damage when it's pointless, healing is already too hard in "normal content" anyways and probably impossibly hard in "difficult content", END RANT.

[Nico Yazawa]

Escrito originalmente por Seraphina:

As I said before, Healers heal, Tanks tank and DPS must dps. (Watch Koishi step in here) But the important rule is that I am ONLY naming the priorities by saying this. Priorities don't mean that this is all they do. Healer must heal but if they don't heal, they must dps because they won't tank. Tank must tank but they must dps to keep doing their job right (and some can also heal) and then there is DPS who must dps but can also heal/support for some, all for the maintenance of team efficiency. In short, no roles do only ONE thing except some dps but you know what I mean.

Should I kick DPS for not dpsing if I outdps them as a WHM?

Genuine question, because it seems they are failing their one and only role if I'm doing their role better and then some.

Food for thought.

[Oberon]

Escrito originalmente por Koishi Komeiji:

Escrito originalmente por Seraphina:

As I said before, Healers heal, Tanks tank and DPS must dps. (Watch Koishi step in here) But the important rule is that I am ONLY naming the priorities by saying this. Priorities don't mean that this is all they do. Healer must heal but if they don't heal, they must dps because they won't tank. Tank must tank but they must dps to keep doing their job right (and some can also heal) and then there is DPS who must dps but can also heal/support for some, all for the maintenance of team efficiency. In short, no roles do only ONE thing except some dps but you know what I mean.

Should I kick DPS for not dpsing if I outdps them as a WHM?

Genuine question, because it seems they are failing their one and only role if I'm doing their role better and then some.

Food for thought.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Nico Yazawa]

Escrito originalmente por The Mayor of Murder Town:

Escrito originalmente por Koishi Komeiji:

Should I kick DPS for not dpsing if I outdps them as a WHM?

Genuine question, because it seems they are failing their one and only role if I'm doing their role better and then some.

Food for thought.

What does that have to do with anything?

See, if we follow the ruling of "Healers Heal, Tanks Tank, DPS DPS" if the DPS are doing less than the healer's job, as in the Healer is keeping everyone alive AND doing more than the DPS, what is the DPS even good for? So, should we kick and get rid of that in this instance?

[Oberon]

Escrito originalmente por Koishi Komeiji:

Escrito originalmente por The Mayor of Murder Town:

What does that have to do with anything?

See, if we follow the ruling of "Healers Heal, Tanks Tank, DPS DPS" if the DPS are doing less than the healer's job, as in the Healer is keeping everyone alive AND doing more than the DPS, what is the DPS even good for? So, should we kick and get rid of that in this instance?

Seraphina goes on to say that those are just priorities, and not the only things each role is supposed to do.

Next time, read more than just the first sentence before commenting.

[Seera1024]

Escrito originalmente por Koishi Komeiji:

Escrito originalmente por The Mayor of Murder Town:

What does that have to do with anything?

See, if we follow the ruling of "Healers Heal, Tanks Tank, DPS DPS" if the DPS are doing less than the healer's job, as in the Healer is keeping everyone alive AND doing more than the DPS, what is the DPS even good for? So, should we kick and get rid of that in this instance?

Not necessarily.

If the time increase is only 5-10 minutes, definitely not.

If they're owning up to their play level that day and are trying to improve (and showing signs in game), definitely not.

But if they're attempting to say it's someone else's fault or they're being rude about it or the increase in time will push past the soft DPS check of the timer to complete the dungeon/trial, then yes.

Players who enter roulettes should accept that sometimes they'll be paired with players who don't care about maximizing their DPS or haven't fully memorized boss mechanics to know how to best play their class (Black Mages knowing when and where to place their ley lines for example). That if you enter roullettes you may get into a group that can still complete the dungeon, they just do it 5-10 slower than those who play at max DPS.

Players who care about how fast a group completes content shouldn't use roullettes and instead should use the Party Finder. Where they can weed out those who don't care about maximizing DPS.

[useless puppy]

New? Healers should always deal damage, the best mitigation is a mob that deals zero damage.

[Nico Yazawa]

Escrito originalmente por Aarkethrix:

Escrito originalmente por Koishi Komeiji:

Should I kick DPS for not dpsing if I outdps them as a WHM?

Genuine question, because it seems they are failing their one and only role if I'm doing their role better and then some.

Food for thought.

No, you shouldnt, because the only way to know that is with a parser, and telling people they’re not doing enough DPS and you know their DPS as a result shows you’re using a parser and are trying to kick somebody as a result of what you see on it, which gets you banned :)

Don’t worry about what other people are doing unless they’re going out of their way to grief the run (and no, playing badly is not griefing the run, and “casual toxicity” as you put it before doesn’t exist) or it’s a premade LFR group.

HAHAH, I knew someone would bring up the "how do you know?! HUH! PARSING?!"

Funnily enough, nowadays you don't even need a parser to know someone is doing spaghetti DPS, with the removal of any and every enmity dump from non-tanks the enmity bar is a decent indicator of who's doing how much, if the WHM who hasn't needed to use a single heal yet is 2nd on enmity, while the other DPS are 3rd and 4th, you can tell something is very wrong even without a parser.

But hey, that is probably why you love this game so much, right? You get to put in minimal effort and nobody can call you out for it!

[Nico Yazawa]

Escrito originalmente por Seraphina:

Someone this elitist like Koishi DOES use a parser. Make no mistakes, this is in no way just an assumption. With how big her ego is and how much of an elitist she is, she DOES use a parser.

Nope. Never used a parser. Too much of a hassle and pain to get it working in FFXIV. Works great in WoW though, so easy to get and set up.

Don't need a parser to tell someone putting in spaghetti effort though.

WHM with last in enmity and never saw a single Holy cast or Glare or 0 uptime with Dia?

Don't need a parser for me to tell they're garbage.

[Nico Yazawa]

Escrito originalmente por Seera1024:

Escrito originalmente por Koishi Komeiji:

See, if we follow the ruling of "Healers Heal, Tanks Tank, DPS DPS" if the DPS are doing less than the healer's job, as in the Healer is keeping everyone alive AND doing more than the DPS, what is the DPS even good for? So, should we kick and get rid of that in this instance?

Not necessarily.

If the time increase is only 5-10 minutes, definitely not.

If they're owning up to their play level that day and are trying to improve (and showing signs in game), definitely not.

But if they're attempting to say it's someone else's fault or they're being rude about it or the increase in time will push past the soft DPS check of the timer to complete the dungeon/trial, then yes.

Players who enter roulettes should accept that sometimes they'll be paired with players who don't care about maximizing their DPS or haven't fully memorized boss mechanics to know how to best play their class (Black Mages knowing when and where to place their ley lines for example). That if you enter roullettes you may get into a group that can still complete the dungeon, they just do it 5-10 slower than those who play at max DPS.

Players who care about how fast a group completes content shouldn't use roullettes and instead should use the Party Finder. Where they can weed out those who don't care about maximizing DPS.

But that's the thing, DPS have 1 job, to DPS. Where do we draw the line of "they aren't doing their job"

People excuse a healer not doing DPS in this game, claiming "It's not their job to." so, if a DPS job is simply to "dps" does that mean if all I do is spam Blizzard 3 I am totally okay, you can't yell at me or criticize me at all, I'm doing my job. I'm DPSing.

An ice mage would increase the time to clear by about 10 minutes (which is atrociously long by the way, that's almost doubling the time to clear) but you seem okay with that.

[Oberon]

I like how he skipped over the post I made because it points out that he ran his mouth without actually reading the post.

[Seera1024]

Escrito originalmente por Koishi Komeiji:

Escrito originalmente por Seera1024:

Not necessarily.

If the time increase is only 5-10 minutes, definitely not.

If they're owning up to their play level that day and are trying to improve (and showing signs in game), definitely not.

But if they're attempting to say it's someone else's fault or they're being rude about it or the increase in time will push past the soft DPS check of the timer to complete the dungeon/trial, then yes.

Players who enter roulettes should accept that sometimes they'll be paired with players who don't care about maximizing their DPS or haven't fully memorized boss mechanics to know how to best play their class (Black Mages knowing when and where to place their ley lines for example). That if you enter roullettes you may get into a group that can still complete the dungeon, they just do it 5-10 slower than those who play at max DPS.

Players who care about how fast a group completes content shouldn't use roullettes and instead should use the Party Finder. Where they can weed out those who don't care about maximizing DPS.

But that's the thing, DPS have 1 job, to DPS. Where do we draw the line of "they aren't doing their job"

People excuse a healer not doing DPS in this game, claiming "It's not their job to." so, if a DPS job is simply to "dps" does that mean if all I do is spam Blizzard 3 I am totally okay, you can't yell at me or criticize me at all, I'm doing my job. I'm DPSing.

An ice mage would increase the time to clear by about 10 minutes (which is atrociously long by the way, that's almost doubling the time to clear) but you seem okay with that.

They aren't doing their job if people can't progress through the content due to them.

Taking 10 minutes longer doesn't impede progress.

If it means that we can't pass a DPS check - either a hard one via mechanics or the soft one via the timer for the duty - then they aren't doing their job.

When I enter a duty roulette, I'm accepting that I might be paired with the meta player or I might get paired with the player who chooses what to do based on what seems fun to them. And I have no problem with either unless they are rude or impede progress.

The next dungeon or story mission isn't going to go anywhere in the extra time it takes to do the dungeon because a black mage decided to camp ice. I'm not going to lose any rewards for the increased completion time.

Life's too short to get worked up over 10-15 minutes of time in a video game.

[Nico Yazawa]

Escrito originalmente por Seera1024:

Escrito originalmente por Koishi Komeiji:

But that's the thing, DPS have 1 job, to DPS. Where do we draw the line of "they aren't doing their job"

People excuse a healer not doing DPS in this game, claiming "It's not their job to." so, if a DPS job is simply to "dps" does that mean if all I do is spam Blizzard 3 I am totally okay, you can't yell at me or criticize me at all, I'm doing my job. I'm DPSing.

An ice mage would increase the time to clear by about 10 minutes (which is atrociously long by the way, that's almost doubling the time to clear) but you seem okay with that.

They aren't doing their job if people can't progress through the content due to them.

Taking 10 minutes longer doesn't impede progress.

If it means that we can't pass a DPS check - either a hard one via mechanics or the soft one via the timer for the duty - then they aren't doing their job.

When I enter a duty roulette, I'm accepting that I might be paired with the meta player or I might get paired with the player who chooses what to do based on what seems fun to them. And I have no problem with either unless they are rude or impede progress.

The next dungeon or story mission isn't going to go anywhere in the extra time it takes to do the dungeon because a black mage decided to camp ice. I'm not going to lose any rewards for the increased completion time.

Life's too short to get worked up over 10-15 minutes of time in a video game.

But by that logic everyone could be playing like absolute vegetables doing 400 DPS in level 80 dungeons and you'd still be okay. Bosses have no enrage timers and you have 90 minutes to do the dungeon.

By your logic, "as long as you can finish it within 90 minutes it's okay."

You're enabling and allowing and defending putting in minimal effort and getting carried.

Try that the next time you have a job, "ehh who cares if I go slower than everyone else, they'll make it up, we'll still finish in time."

Gaurentee it's not gonna go the way you want it to.

[Athmet]

Escrito originalmente por Koishi Komeiji:

Escrito originalmente por Seera1024:

They aren't doing their job if people can't progress through the content due to them.

Taking 10 minutes longer doesn't impede progress.

If it means that we can't pass a DPS check - either a hard one via mechanics or the soft one via the timer for the duty - then they aren't doing their job.

When I enter a duty roulette, I'm accepting that I might be paired with the meta player or I might get paired with the player who chooses what to do based on what seems fun to them. And I have no problem with either unless they are rude or impede progress.

The next dungeon or story mission isn't going to go anywhere in the extra time it takes to do the dungeon because a black mage decided to camp ice. I'm not going to lose any rewards for the increased completion time.

Life's too short to get worked up over 10-15 minutes of time in a video game.

But by that logic everyone could be playing like absolute vegetables doing 400 DPS in level 80 dungeons and you'd still be okay. Bosses have no enrage timers and you have 90 minutes to do the dungeon.

By your logic, "as long as you can finish it within 90 minutes it's okay."

You're enabling and allowing and defending putting in minimal effort and getting carried.

Try that the next time you have a job, "ehh who cares if I go slower than everyone else, they'll make it up, we'll still finish in time."

Gaurentee it's not gonna go the way you want it to.

Gotta say I kinda agree with this. Not everyone can put 10 hours per day in this game. So if I know i can do a lvl 80 instance in 15 minutes and it actually take 45, i would not be happy at all.

Now, if it was a very low level instance with very new people in the game (easily checkable) then I would not mind and would try to help them.

[Seera1024]

Escrito originalmente por Koishi Komeiji:

Escrito originalmente por Seera1024:

They aren't doing their job if people can't progress through the content due to them.

Taking 10 minutes longer doesn't impede progress.

If it means that we can't pass a DPS check - either a hard one via mechanics or the soft one via the timer for the duty - then they aren't doing their job.

When I enter a duty roulette, I'm accepting that I might be paired with the meta player or I might get paired with the player who chooses what to do based on what seems fun to them. And I have no problem with either unless they are rude or impede progress.

The next dungeon or story mission isn't going to go anywhere in the extra time it takes to do the dungeon because a black mage decided to camp ice. I'm not going to lose any rewards for the increased completion time.

Life's too short to get worked up over 10-15 minutes of time in a video game.

But by that logic everyone could be playing like absolute vegetables doing 400 DPS in level 80 dungeons and you'd still be okay. Bosses have no enrage timers and you have 90 minutes to do the dungeon.

By your logic, "as long as you can finish it within 90 minutes it's okay."

You're enabling and allowing and defending putting in minimal effort and getting carried.

Try that the next time you have a job, "ehh who cares if I go slower than everyone else, they'll make it up, we'll still finish in time."

Gaurentee it's not gonna go the way you want it to.

There's a difference between a job and a video game you play for fun.

A job you have a contract with your boss to do your job efficiently.

There is no such contract with a video game you play for fun.

I'd internally be wishing people were playing better, but I wouldn't be vocal about it or anything. I accepted the fact that I could get paired with them when I entered the roulette. Though I might be happy about being on top of the DPS list for once. Still haven't gotten down black mage rotation yet so I'm not at max DPS yet. Not at min DPS either as I don't camp ice.

Of course that's for dungeons without a decent DPS check mechanic as I doubt the higher level DPS checks would allow for too many players at min DPS levels even if they're playing perfectly for how they play.

So yes, I'm fine with players who appear to be putting in minimal effort and getting carried. Because I don't know the reason and I don't know how much effort they are actually putting forth.They could be having an off day and you don't always know you're having them until you're in the duty. They could have a disability and they're performing at their maximum capability. They could be new to the class and haven't quite got their rotation memorized and adjusted for mechanics. This could be their first MMO and they're still getting the whole combat system down. I give duty finder players the benefit of the doubt. Because like I said, getting worked up over a video game just isn't worth it. The moment I get worked up over a video game is time for me to take a break from said video game.

Now, if they're in party finder and the group they joined was clear that they wanted max DPS and they are min DPS or clearly having a bad day and not leaving on their own, then yea, they've earned a kick as they've shown they aren't/didn't follow the requirements for the party.

[Seera1024]

Escrito originalmente por Athmet:

Escrito originalmente por Koishi Komeiji:

But by that logic everyone could be playing like absolute vegetables doing 400 DPS in level 80 dungeons and you'd still be okay. Bosses have no enrage timers and you have 90 minutes to do the dungeon.

By your logic, "as long as you can finish it within 90 minutes it's okay."

You're enabling and allowing and defending putting in minimal effort and getting carried.

Try that the next time you have a job, "ehh who cares if I go slower than everyone else, they'll make it up, we'll still finish in time."

Gaurentee it's not gonna go the way you want it to.

Gotta say I kinda agree with this. Not everyone can put 10 hours per day in this game. So if I know i can do a lvl 80 instance in 15 minutes and it actually take 45, i would not be happy at all.

Now, if it was a very low level instance with very new people in the game (easily checkable) then I would not mind and would try to help them.

I wouldn't be happy either. But I wouldn't be up in arms trying to kick the player(s) causing it if I'm in a duty roulette or in a party that likely was filled through duty roulette. Which is what Koishi is saying should happen in those situations every time regardless of the reason.

Because at the end of the day, it's just a video game.

There's a difference with how you feel about a situation and what you actually do about it.