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I know WoW, at least, moved away from that a bit. They made healers' basic damage spells (Ex. Smite) not cost mana, so they can spend GCDs they didn't need to heal without feeling like they were wasting mana. And I tossed around a lot of moonfire on resto druid. And there was the 'heal allies and damage enemies in the area' spells I loved on priest.
Scholars have 3 ways of getting mana back. You are forgetting about Energy Drain which also was affected by cleric stance.
"And now you can regen mana from an ability at any level of content." This also applies to every single other healer other than SCH.
Ignoring the fact that the heal potency for SCH fairy was nerfed, this achieves the EXACT same thing as a nerf. You are arguing over the semantics of a definition asking why SCH is less desirable when I gave a reasonable response.
Shadow flare reduced the attack speed of all enemies stuck within it resulting in damage mitigation as well as AOE damage. People are lazy and would rather do the bare minimum, that's why you only saw a few SCH's use that spell. Just because many SCH didn't keep shadow flare up during fights doesn't mean it was not a good spell to have.
The pets heal potency got nerfed and I have already seen several people complain about it on reddit.
Scholars did not need to "back up the healing of the pet" and instead they could act as a 3rd DPS for the entirity of dungeons without switching in and out of Cleric Stance.
Esuna and Leeches are the EXACT same spell. The SCH spell Leeches was removed in Stormblood.
Leeches - Cast: 1.0s, Recast: 2.5s, Range:30y... (Removes a single detrimental effect from target)
Esuna - Cast: 1.0s, Recast: 2.5s, Range: 30y... (Removes a single detrimental effect from target)
Selene: Fey Caress "Removes a single detrimental effect from all nearby party members."
If you put Selene on Obey, you can manually control Fey Caress so it's always up when you use it.
I'd rather have my old spell Leeches.
That's what people here are complaining about how the choices are mandatory, when people want to make choices between what spells to have.
Changes never work, whenver they change something they always ♥♥♥♥ other classes up...
I give up...
A nerf would be if they removed the ability for the SCH's pet to heal effectivly while in cleric stance, THAT would have been a nerf (and a big one) pre-stormblood. Instead of just removing cleric stance which removed the limitation the other two healers had for dealing damage or healing at any given point. The fact that this highlights that the only reason SCH was as popular as it was because it could effectivly 'cheat the system' is not a nerf, it's bringing to light how bad and annoying cleric stance really was.
Which sounds like an actual reason to nerf the pet, which was supposed to be able to help heal in a raid type situation, and when the SCH was in cleric stance being able to cover for them from time to time. The fact that a SCH never had to leave cleric stance sounds again like something that wasn't intended (it being a healer and all, and not a DPS). So combined with the fact that a SCH doesn't need to be covered while in cleric stance, and a pet should not be able to replace the need for a human playing a healer...while it is a nerf it feels fully justified and/or needed. Still say the Scholar came out overall.
Nobody is arguing that it's the same spell. The point is now you get the spell much sooner then you used to, which was a complaint about it. Yes Selene on obay can use the spell, but it's on a much longer cooldown then Leeches was, which means you couldn't use it in situations where there were lots of bleeds (like the thousand maw dungeon) and it would be the most helpful. So again it's an improvment.
No more then they were before. Except now you get a few new options. If I'm just going to run fates or story, I probably don't need protect and can take the new cleric stance damage ability, or you can take switcast. In a raid if everyone knows what they are doing, you may not need swift cast and can change it for Eye for and Eye.
There are options, but for general pugs and covering your bases yes the choices are pretty simple. But that means the other abilities just need some work, not that the idea itself is a nerf, and again we get more out of it then we lose....which was the whole point of the thread.
Yes, there were some nerfs. AST lost the ability to keep two dots up as did WHM I believe. So damage by healers took a hit, there is no denying that. But overall our ability to do our job, which is keeping the party alive, is better...so overall I say we came out ahead.
If you increase the effectiveness of every other class, but keep one class the same. That can be the exact same as reducing the effectiveness of one class and keeping all the others the same. ergo: the same as a nerf
They did nerf the pet.
I am not defending the old cleric stance, I am giving you one reason why SCH used to have an advantage over other healing classes. If you want think the "nerf" is justified or not is not my concern. I'm only giving you a reason as to why the SCH is less desirable. This isn't even taking into account other class nerfs. Also SCH is still in the Meta by the way.
I said SCH stays in cleric stance without switching for dungeons not extreme raids. For several DPS checks in extreme raids, I remember a time when I would single heal the group or DPS entirely during certain phases and the other healer would single heal or DPS.
It certainly did help out in raid situations, especially when I would DPS and support the single healer with my pet. But at the same time even after years of switching in and out of cleric stance in raids came natural to me, most people could not handle switching in and out of cleric stance to contribute DPS as a healer in raids.
I am grateful for this patch for making things easier for healers, because many people I knew would be nasty to many healers because they were also expected to have top notch DPS at the same time. This led to many people not wanting to play healer and with the old cleric stance gone, it's much easier to DPS as a healer now days, and maybe more people will try it out.
The bar is set so low for fates and story, I honestly do not know the reason to talk about it.
If you are a healer you ALWAYS take swiftcast, trade eye for an eye for something else, I've always had use for both.
I never stated otherwise, however you need to accept that some classes gained more benefits than others.
Ignoring cleric stance, SCH lost more DPS than any other healing class, while making its DPS rotation easier, at the same time it lowered it. Which may mean to a total DPS increase for healers because it is easier for them now.
Anyway if they buffed or nerfed healers doesn't matter because all content can be done with any class so long as mechanics are done correctly. Honestly i'd say the changes to bard effect healers the most.
All in all I can see a lot of people defending the nerf don't have the actual healing experience. All 3 healers were dang easy for speed run and maximizing fps in savage or ex. WHM regen + Medica stacking heal 300 pot? per tick and that's stronger than fairy which actually has a casting delay on each heal.
It used to make Wanderers Palace runs soooooooooooo fast at 50 collecting tomes.
Lustrate used to not be affected by cleric stance, then that got changed...
https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Assize is a White Mage ability. 10% MP AoE heal on a 1m CD. So that's two. White Mages are on par with Scholars for mana management and were already more powerful healers than Scholars, and then got a buff while Scholars got a nerf. Scholars are just flat out weaker healers now. Even Astrologians shields are more powerful than Scholar.
If SCH can still get a 2x buff to shield strength on crit they still get stronger shields. AST shields may be more consistant, but they can't be increased beyond the 1.3x they currently are. Unless that changed?
AS for mana regen, I've done plenty of content with WHM (it was my starting class after all) and while the 10% doesn't hurt, if you put a WHM and AST against each other the WHM will lose mostl likely due to the MP issue.
No. It is NOT the same thing. Like I said it highlights issues the SCH has AS a class but the fact that they removed what amounted to SCH cheating the system is not a nerf. It's simply removing the mechanic exploit it was using.
So many times people say "They shouldn't nerf X they should bring up Y to perform at X's level"...that is exactly what they did here. That is, again, not the same as a nerf. If that is what you define it as, fine, but that is not what the majority mean when they bring up issues of something being 'nerfed'.
[quote=Lobstersaurus;1456202492184366391
If you are a healer you ALWAYS take swiftcast, trade eye for an eye for something else, I've always had use for both. [/quote]
*shrugs* Then I guess we already see the difference in what people might use. I never used it except as an after thought. It didn't last long, and frankly 10s of reduced damage pales in comparison of even on an AoE spread the AST giving the same buff for 30s to everyone from all sources. Eye for an Eye is another ability I feel would need to be a lot better to justify using a slot over personally.
But if I was playing WHM or SCH I could see on a lot of dungeons swapping swiftcast for Eye for an Eye, if you really wanted to. If you know what you are doing nobody should die and you could probably get away with the swap if you wanted to. I wouldn't, but I could see others doing it.
For the WHM and AST I just still don't see the real nerf. I just finished getting my AST to 70 and it still lets me do everything before with a new trick or two in the expansion. Still haven't done WHM yet but since regen stance for AST is basically modeled after the WHM I don't think it will be that bad, especially since the WHM hits harder then the AST.
As for the SCH, I don't think it was hit nearly as hard as people are complaining over. IF it was then it wouldn't supposedly be the meta still. So even if the fairy isn't as tanky or as powerful as it was pre-SB, it must still be doing it's job just fine if so many are still using it.
In the end I am still saying that while the healers took some hits to DPS, that what we gained overall made up for it. No more screwups of being in the wrong stance, healing is generally going to be stronger with the cross-class abilities, and now you can freely dps or heal as needed. So overall it's a win in my opinon.
Here's one of my posts for reference.
Feel free to disagree, I've said my piece.
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At the end of the day they will tailor content to whatever the classes in their current state can handle. If they suddenly decide to nerf every class, the end game raids they provide will most likely reflect the changes.
Yep, that's exactly what I do, also it can be combined with virus. I usually raid with people in some sort of voice chat and change off with around 3 people on rotations for eye for an eye and virus. We only only use the mitigation spells when tank busters or massive unavoidable raid wide AOE are going to be let loose.
I was playing a lot of BLM recently and my buddy a Summoner was switching out the new cross class virus spell on Susanoo Ex for the unavoidable raid wide damage. Every little bit helps.
Adloquium crit is nice in theory, but it's a crit and you can't control it. Same reason why the nerf on MNK Forbidden Chakra hurt the job, the Deep Meditation Trait 50% crit increase Chakra sounds nice on paper but in practice is mostly miss instead of hit. I get on average, on lvl 70 dungeon bosses, about 2 free Forbidden Chakra. Considering how much down time between each bosses special attack, those aren't actually free Chakra at all as I would have plenty of time to meditate inbetween.
Lustrate is not even a thing you should consider. It's an emergency button, you have 3 Lustrate OR Indomitability/ Sacred Soil/ Energy Drain every 60 seconds (30 seconds if you win lotto). It is NOT free, WHM and AST both has instant heal that IS free as they don't lock out other abilities. WHM has free Benediction, free Tetragrammation, free Asylum, free Assize. AST has free Essential Dignity, insta cast Aspected Benefic, free Synestry, free Earthly Star. See, the problem is that other jobs has FREE abilities, SCH has a resource bound abilities. You can NOT Lustrate AND Indomitability.
The Fairy is weak as ****. I use Aetherpact + Rouse and it heals about the same as Physick. Prior to SB with just Rouse it heals the same as Physics.
All in all, jobs that rely on crit gets weaker as level goes up at the start on an expasion. That is because crit rate is decrease the higher you get up, until later patch that adds on huge crit bonus back. Don't believe me? Level sync down to 60, you will do lots more crit than you do at lvl 70. Until 4.55 you will NOT see the same crit rate of lvl 60.
You do know that the term has been around long enough that it actually is in the dictionary now?
You can say it's a nerf all you want, but by definition simply removing cleric stance so all the classes can heal and dps at the same time...is not a nerf. It isn't semantics, it isn't a difference of opinon, it's just simple fact.
Does that mean SCH loses it's nice at being able to let the pet carry the party in a dungeon while it remains in cleric stance? Sure, but that again isn't a nerf since you can still let the pet heal while you dps...you just can't rely on it because they reduced the healing of the pet. THAT part is the nerf, not making other classes able to dps and heal at the same time.
Yes, but it's icing on the cake. You aren't looking at the whole package. One of the main perks of a SCH is that the fairy doesn't have an MP pool, but it constantly is healing. As a AST I can tell you that even though the AST shields got a big buff I still don't use them often. Why? Because they will VERY quickly drain your MP if you are trying to heal AND shield by yourself. Now in a raid, this is not as much of an issue since you are splitting healing between tow healers. But when you are by yourself it's just not a good idea unless the boss' attacks are generally weaker AoE or just weaker attacks in general.
I do use shields for fights such as the steppe dungeon, where the AoE isn't so much strong as just consistant...it doesn't kill my MP that way. But try that with say the Doma Castle final boss...and you will very quickly have your shields break one after another, this means you have to rely on direct heals which means you arne't doing as much DPS.
SCH doesn't have nearly the same MP issues. While it also doesn't have the same DPS as it did before, it still can be far more consistant in fights that an AST in nocturnal sect couldn't keep up with. AST is strong, but SCH still has points it just works better then the other two over.
Ignoring all the other nerfs to SCH, I'll just talk about Cleric Stance for you.
Cleric Stance used to make SCH a lot more powerful, it got changed and now it's bad, that means the SCH is less powerful now. That is literally the text book definition of a nerf.
What's even more halarious is how you are going far out of your way to debunk a definition, instead of sticking to the main points I brought up and you brought up in your original post. I'm unsubbing now have a nice day.