Way Too Many Button Presses......

[Bob]

OK so i played this game with a controller back in the day around launch, got to 50 got my ilvl to around 85 and it worked perfectly on a controller.... now tho, a couple years later i come back with no controller and a different class (drg) my question is how in the hell are you supposed to click that many skills and still have keybinds left for basic functions, wdf is this??? do people enjoy this convulated system? the level of dexterity required here is ludicrous, i would need 5 extra hands in order to be a good DRG. SE... Streamline maybe???? (inb4 git gud comments cos SE apparently agrees with me)

[RopeDrink]

Macro/Hidden Extras.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=907796835

Macro/Showing Extras.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=907796936

vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlswcyaSJ40

Won't argue FF has more buttons in general (Cross-C, PvP, Chocobo - list goes on), yet WoW has (for the most part) had a similar button count (class wise) for years, with exception to those who got a hefty slap with the streamline-stick for Legion (eg. Prot War - used to be more before, and far more back in the ancient times of stance-dancing and Vanilla filler - I don't even want to think about vanilla Shaman...)

Given cross-class changes and probably other tweaks are happening in Stormblood, we can assume FF is heading down a similar path, but we'll have to wait for the full picture.

Comfortable keybinds are king, followed by a UI you like. No use cutting down on buttons if pressing any of them cramp your hand, for example. Everyone develops their own template (eg. some are happy with 1,2,3,4,5 etc, whereas I find that odd/uncomfortable, so keep those for lesser pressed 'activation' abilities while the core is on QWE/ASD etc. In short, if it doesn't feel fluid, it probably feels like a chore.

Never had a macro-mouse or anything with more than 5 buttons, but I can imagine how handy they are. Imagining the alternative is like looking back on the ancient times when I was a keyturning clicker in my internet youth. Just... Don't even want to think about that. Happy thoughts, happy thoughts...

[SecretPotato]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=849159759

[Atlus]

First, Skills are being rebuilt for 4.0 so expect some slight mechanic changes to come your way.

But as a side help to learn the mechanics again on a new setup since you've been away- rather than starting a new Character to learn from complete scratch with no immediate content, do the randomly generated Deep Dungeon with your current character with a class you want to practice. It'll set you to Level 1, so you can learn each skill as they come from scratch, but also level up fast for the next skill from every few or so kills with your smaller EXP gauges.

[neilhart]

All I'll say is that when I used to play wow back in WOTLK as a hunter, all I did was press 5 buttons in my keyboard and click some buffs.
Years laters, when I tried this game i was very overwhelmed by the amount of things to press, but got used to it pretty quickly, heck, from the classes I've tried Dragoon seems the easiest one at level 60 to me...except for the animation locks on jumping (I know it used to be much worse some years ago)

[Neiker]

Originalmente postado por Rick:

All I'll say is that when I used to play wow back in WOTLK as a hunter, all I did was press 5 buttons in my keyboard and click some buffs.
Years laters, when I tried this game i was very overwhelmed by the amount of things to press, but got used to it pretty quickly, heck, from the classes I've tried Dragoon seems the easiest one at level 60 to me...except for the animation locks on jumping (I know it used to be much worse some years ago)

Lol you must havent played BLM yet then...Ranged dps in general are much easier than melee dps. Since those have a much easier time with aoes and dont have to worry at all about positioning wich allow them to focus only on their roation, wich again, due to lack of needing to position themselves, have a much easier roation.

But every class is easy once you understand it. Dragoon is all about keeping your buffs and debuffs while doing your rotation, while avoiding getting damage as much as you can.

[Neiker]

Originalmente postado por Shirayuki474:

Originalmente postado por Neiker:

Lol you must havent played BLM yet then...Ranged dps in general are much easier than melee dps. Since those have a much easier time with aoes and dont have to worry at all about positioning wich allow them to focus only on their roation, wich again, due to lack of needing to position themselves, have a much easier roation.

But every class is easy once you understand it. Dragoon is all about keeping your buffs and debuffs while doing your rotation, while avoiding getting damage as much as you can.

Black Mage is the worst example you could made, He is this DPS where positioning and dodging AoEs are the hardest things to do from all DPS. You need to know fight perfectly you need to know what kind of attacks boss is using and when otherwise you will be running all the time. Similar situation (but easier) for other range DPS, melee are the ones who have easier time on fights, their rotations may be more complicated sometimes + requirement of getting certain side of the boss from time to time but they don't have cast bars which means they can easily adjust to the situation even if they will lose potency here and there.

AHAHAHAHAHA, no.

Black mage is the easiest class with the easiest roations you dont need to click that many buttons due to casting, plus its a ranged dps...What aoe ranged dps usualy have to dodge comapring to melee dps? by being ranged you can pay more attention to the boss, since it dosent have any animation lock you can see any atacks coming at you from miles away. Knowing to stay behind the boss, or sometimes the side of it, is by no means 'knowing the fight perfectly'.

Plus he dosent have to move...at all. And if you need too, you can stop casting anytime you want, it dosent lock you on an animation like drgn jumps, wich allow you to pay even more attention to the fight, since you dont have to click that many buttons.

[Gabby]

1. If you find it the easiest, you're probably doing it wrong.

2. Mostly all the same AoEs as melee, except where raids have AoE that either attack melee or ranged, and these are usually doled out evenly.

Do you actually play the game?

3. Ranged DPS still have to move. I refer to the same question.

[Gorith]

Op you could just do things the really easy way. Get a keyboard with programable buttons and program a repeating macro for the non-situational rotations (cendensing all the buttons into a single on/off toggle button) leaving you free to focus on situational button presses.

[Bob]

Originalmente postado por Gorith:

Op you could just do things the really easy way. Get a keyboard with programable buttons and program a repeating macro for the non-situational rotations (cendensing all the buttons into a single on/off toggle button) leaving you free to focus on situational button presses.

Isnt that akin to cheating?

[Neiker]

Originalmente postado por Seraphna:

1. If you find it the easiest, you're probably doing it wrong.

2. Mostly all the same AoEs as melee, except where raids have AoE that either attack melee or ranged, and these are usually doled out evenly.

Do you actually play the game?

3. Ranged DPS still have to move. I refer to the same question.

1-Its not just me who think this is the easiest...I even said why. Melee dps have to click on their buttons much faster (due to the lack of casting) WHILE moving aroudn to max the damage. Casters dont have to do that, meaning they heva a much easier rotation.

2-having to dodge the same aoes as melee,yes...BUT while having a much better view of the battle and not having to move around >to do more damage<, just sit there doing your roation until th eboss forces you to move. Yes....much easier than melee.
Also any half decent caster that have any idea how that fight works will position himself in a way most or at least a few of the bosses aoes wont come where he is. Meaning, less aoes to dodge compared to melee dps.

3- I meant, to do damage...you dont have skills that do more damage to the side of enemies and others that do more on the back,etc.. Moving around is a requirement for the mechanics of the bosses, yes. But you can stop casting anytime you want, soo no animation locks for you.

And you dont have to move nearly as much as melee dps.

[Neiker]

Originalmente postado por Shirayuki474:

Originalmente postado por Neiker:

AHAHAHAHAHA, no.

Black mage is the easiest class with the easiest roations you dont need to click that many buttons due to casting, plus its a ranged dps...What aoe ranged dps usualy have to dodge comapring to melee dps? by being ranged you can pay more attention to the boss, since it dosent have any animation lock you can see any atacks coming at you from miles away. Knowing to stay behind the boss, or sometimes the side of it, is by no means 'knowing the fight perfectly'.

Plus he dosent have to move...at all. And if you need too, you can stop casting anytime you want, it dosent lock you on an animation like drgn jumps, wich allow you to pay even more attention to the fight, since you dont have to click that many buttons.

Sounds like you never played Black Mage outside of dungeons.

Doesn't have to move at all? You are just prooving you know nothing. There are many mechanics and different AoE which requires changing your place even if you are not targeted directly because you will die or kill somebody, such as basically many times in A9S due to platforms changing, A10S charges, A11S almost everything, all Opticals , Lapis phase if you are targeted with tetherr. A12S puddles and final phase puddles.

Sephirot final phase puddles combined with RNG colour mechanics which won't let you pre-position, Sophia beams and balance, Nidhogg divebombs and final phase fireballs.

These are just examples, and no (my future prediction to your response), melee don't have additional things to dodge, being just behind Boss is not more dangerous than being 5 meters behind him but you can still attack boss as tank is moving him which is not so simple in case of Black Mage.

Originalmente postado por Neiker:

1-Its not just me who think this is the easiest...I even said why. Melee dps have to click on their buttons much faster (due to the lack of casting) WHILE moving aroudn to max the damage. Casters dont have to do that, meaning they heva a much easier rotation.

2-having to dodge the same aoes as melee,yes...BUT while having a much better view of the battle and not having to move around >to do more damage<, just sit there doing your roation until th eboss forces you to move. Yes....much easier than melee.
Also any half decent caster that have any idea how that fight works will position himself in a way most or at least a few of the bosses aoes wont come where he is. Meaning, less aoes to dodge compared to melee dps.

3- I meant, to do damage...you dont have skills that do more damage to the side of enemies and others that do more on the back,etc.. Moving around is a requirement for the mechanics of the bosses, yes. But you can stop casting anytime you want, soo no animation locks for you.

And you dont have to move nearly as much as melee dps.

1. And what is so hard in clicking buttons while moving?
2. View on what excatly? You have a Boss and you are attacking him, that simple, going for different side from time to time (while still attacking) is not difficult as you are trying to show.
3. By stopping casting you are losing entire damage cast or Enochian if you are at the end of rotations which will reduce your damage to ♥♥♥♥ tier for around 30 seconds. By failing to do side attacks you are losing some potency from 1 cast. So you will lose as a Dragoon this 100 potency, so sad, as Black Mage you are losing +500 potency, sometimes +1000 if your movement took 3 seconds or more. And it is easier to manage sides than doding AoE as a caster because amount of times where certain sides from the boss are very dangerous is minimal at best so not only execution of mechanics as melee is easier but also less punishing if you failed to do them.


Of course, just like Seraphna said, you can easilly dodge everything and position yourself without issues but then your dps is comparable to tank (at best) and playing something in a bad way doesn't mean it is easy.

Originalmente postado por DeiTy93:

Isnt that akin to cheating?

Whatever it is or not, it won't work good enough, macroing more than 1 skill in battle always ends bad. You are losing skill speed, there is also risk your attacks may be interrupted by it or the ones on the macro

Yes, i said "casters dont have to move...at all" wich is clearly wrong, and just to clarify, was not what i meant, even tough i admit it sounded wrong. What i actualy meant was "his rotation dont rquire him to move around...at all to do more damage".

1-Click buttons withoud moving is harder than clickin buttons in slower pace withoud having to move. PERIOD.

2-Im going to try explaining this in a simpler way, since you didnt think. Moving around while clicking stuff can generate tunnel vision. Let me remind you again, sinse you ignored or forgot about it, that melee dps have to click, many more buttons per second than any caster, that is just fact. That WHILE having to move around, thing BLM dosent, and its roation is also very simplistic.
And you seriously going to argue that casters and melee dps have the same ammount of aoe's to dodge? for real? do you even play this game, like...at all? All those mechanics you said affect melee dps too, some makes it even make it harder for melee dps, since it requires you to be close to the boss, unlike ranged who can be positioned further away.

3-Then learn how to position yourself, for gods sake, if the content is hard you need to know your class and the fight, that much is obvious, also you can learn how to position yourself to avoid the aoes after doing the fight just once...If a BLM dosent know the fight he will lose lots of potency, dragoon ont he other hand will probably jump at the wrong time and die. Wich will lose more potency now? Just look around how many melee dps die compared to ranged dps. Parse and look at the numbers, just compare how much damage melee dps take and how much damage ranged dps take.
Just go DF, or even group up with some friends, you will see that melee dps take more damage than ranged. Why? because everyone who chooses to play ranged are 100% better at dodging stuff? Or is it because generaly easier for them to dodge?


All you said is "ranged dps is not easy on savage" and i agree that no class is easy on savage raids. But looking at all points you made, nothing sugest ranged is easier than melee...like, at all. And that because im comparing it to the easiest melee dps, that is dragoon.

And yes...Melee dps HAVE more stuff to dodge generaly on all contents, exept maybe on the real end game content, but even if everyone has lots of stuff to dodge, it generaly is still harder for melee dps and tanks compared to the other classes, but thats not an issue with tanks because obviously they can usualy survive it. If you refuse to aknowledge that simple fact then you simply dont play melee dps, and arguing this simple fact with you is useless and we are done. Im not Mayor and will not repeat myself like an idiot for 5 thread pages until basic information finaly enters your brain.

[Neiker]

Originalmente postado por Shirayuki474:

Originalmente postado por Neiker:

Yes, i said "casters dont have to move...at all" wich is clearly wrong, and just to clarify, was not what i meant, even tough i admit it sounded wrong. What i actualy meant was "his rotation dont rquire him to move around...at all to do more damage".

1-Click buttons withoud moving is harder than clickin buttons in slower pace withoud having to move. PERIOD.

2-Im going to try explaining this in a simpler way, since you didnt think. Moving around while clicking stuff can generate tunnel vision. Let me remind you again, sinse you ignored or forgot about it, that melee dps have to click, many more buttons per second than any caster, that is just fact. That WHILE having to move around, thing BLM dosent, and its roation is also very simplistic.
And you seriously going to argue that casters and melee dps have the same ammount of aoe's to dodge? for real? do you even play this game, like...at all? All those mechanics you said affect melee dps too, some makes it even make it harder for melee dps, since it requires you to be close to the boss, unlike ranged who can be positioned further away.

3-Then learn how to position yourself, for gods sake, if the content is hard you need to know your class and the fight, that much is obvious...If a BLM dosent know the fight he will lose lots of potency, dragoon ont he other hand will probably jump at the wrong time and die. Wich will lose more potency now? Just look around how many melee dps die compared to ranged dps. Parse and look at the numbers, just compare how much damage melee dps take and how much damage ranged dps take.
Just go DF, or even group up with some friends, you will see that melee dps take more damage than ranged. Why? because everyone who chooses to play ranged are 100% better at dodging stuff? Or is it because generaly easier for them to dodge?


All you said is "ranged dps is not easy on savage" and i agree that no class is easy on savage raids. But looking at all points you made, nothing sugest ranged is easier than melee...like, at all. And that because im comparing it to the easiest melee dps, that is dragoon.

And yes...Melee dps HAVE more stuff to dodge generaly on all contents, exept maybe on the real end game content, but even if everyone has lots of stuff to dodge, it generaly is still harder for melee dps and tanks compared to the other classes, but thats not an issue with tanks because obviously they can usualy survive it. If you refuse to aknowledge that simple fact then you simply dont play melee dps, and arguing this simple fact with you is useless and we are done. Im not Mayor and will not repeat myself like an idiot for 5 thread pages until basic information finaly enters your brain.

He may to need to move around to do more damage but he will have to stop attacking completely if he will have to move.

1. Both seems the same to me, maybe try to use an example instead of empty words? It is not like you are getting somekind of delay while moving and attacking at the same time.
2. More buttons =/= more difficult. Black Mage has simpler rotation and less buttons to operate but he has other things he needs to focus more than melee.
3. You can position yourself but there will be countless situation (which I already posted) where you will be forced to abandon your position, in other words, you will be forced to move.
Black Mage who doesn't know the fight will die too, it is no different than a Dragoon or any other job. Dragoon has buff which reduces his defense and Black Mage has HP shields, conclusion guess yourself. Also there are countless of bad players on any job, they will be dying all the time with potato dps, no exceptions.

No job is ''easy'' on Savage but Black Mage is clearly on the top 3 if we are talking about difficulty. And Dragoon is not even close. Maybe learn to play him correctly first.

I don't care about your silly DF. place where the worst players appears constantly, in dungeon you can stay on 1 place with your silly Black Mage and spam anything and nothing, its not gonna change anything or kill somebody, it is the most casual content which will never show who is easier who is harder. I'm talking about Savage Raids and Extreme trials which means, End game content.

Of course you won't repeat yourself because you can't overcome what I or Seraphna said, all you are saying are empty words without any kind of explantation in real gameplay

I explained said point more than once. Tunnel vision and many, many, many other examples, all of wich you clearly didnt saw or choose to ignore. If Seraphna replyes im more than willing to debate with her, hell, i might even admit im wrong assuming she brings actual good points and not choose to ignore half of what i said. Soo please, dont bring other people's names into your wrong and cancerous posts.

Its usless to argue with you, as you have proven here and on many other threads that you know nothing about this game and is probably the clown of the forum. Having a different oppinion than you just give even more credit to it, soo, have fun.

Soo yeah, have fun.

[Gorith]

Originalmente postado por DeiTy93:

Originalmente postado por Gorith:

Op you could just do things the really easy way. Get a keyboard with programable buttons and program a repeating macro for the non-situational rotations (cendensing all the buttons into a single on/off toggle button) leaving you free to focus on situational button presses.

Isnt that akin to cheating?

Depends on your perspective. Some people will call it absolutely cheating because you are automating and removing some of the manual dexterity required. Others will say it's absolutely not cheating because they are still having to interact with the game it's just assisting them and is a QoL choice. I personally think automation is acceptable as long as you are using it to do simple tasks and are still actively doing the lion share of the work. Also it's ok if you have some physical limiter like my friend
Ive used it in RTS games to reduce keystrokes on multikey build orders, D3 CM wizard, things with long cooldowns that need to be used on cooldown . I see no issues with it in those. I have a friend who uses it for rotations in wow because he lost his left pinky and ring finger in an accident (actually he is the one I learned how to do it from and how actually effective it can be). To the person who said it slows your rotation down... That depends on how much time your willing to spend programing a long macro and getting the delay timers exactly right.

[Kiana]

If it's using the macro system built into the game and specifically programmed to be able to chain skills together, it is not cheating. If that constituted cheating, why would Square go out of their way to enable it?

[Gorith]

Originalmente postado por Kiana:

If it's using the macro system built into the game and specifically programmed to be able to chain skills together, it is not cheating. If that constituted cheating, why would Square go out of their way to enable it?

I was actually talking about things like logitechs gaming keyboards but yea if it's built into the game itself then yea it's hard to call it cheating then.