Undertale

Undertale

dirtsaliva Sep 28, 2015 @ 2:00am
First Child and Asriel [spoiler heavy]
Talking about main endings and plot points/backstory that's revealed through multiple playthroughs.

I'm not here to propose a crazy theory, or spout some wisdom gleaned from reflecting on my game... but... I will ramble. No guarantees of any interesting thoughts. Read or respond at your discretion?? For those that don't wanna slog through the dreck of my, uh, expanded thought process:

TL;DR: If the First Child was such a demonic little ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, who is (Omega) Asriel upset about losing, why is the (pacifist) player character directly related?

!! YOU, READER, YOU WANT THE DRECK !!

The First Child ("Chara”) is referred to as a cruel little kid* and has shown to be unabashedly conniving and harmful (in Asriel's past). True Lab tape recordings highly suggest that Chara poisoned Asgore on purpose, either as an experiment or maybe just for a laugh. Either way, the poisonous flowers were important for the future. Kind of unclear why Chara would team up with Asriel to gather more buttercups -- was it originally proposed to be for the humans in Chara's humanity-destroying plan? Could Asriel have known Chara would poison themself? Did Chara actually intend to die, knowing it would somehow trigger a war? Rhetorical, there's no way that Chara bastard would have just died on accident, right?)
[spoilers]Refers to themself as a demon in the Bad Ending. Clear through absurd power and knowledge of game mechanics that it's literal. Was Frisk ever actually a human? Or did they change, similar to how Genocide Chara is no longer perceived as a human by Asgore? Hell, how old is Chara really...[spoilers]

Compare to Asriel who, in the tapes and the epilogue after your True Ending fight with Omega Asriel, is a self-described "crybaby", Asriel was a sweet and sensitive child (coming from Toriel and Asgore...??? who knew) . He concedes that Chara was not kind at all.
Yet in the tape recordings, the family picture with the flowers, it seems like they get along well (up until tape 4/5). There's nothing in-game that suggests Asgore or Toriel were suspicious of Chara at all. Asriel is the only recorded witness** of Chara's true nature, at least a portion of it.

In fact, in the climax of the Omega Asriel fight, he ultimately breaks down and doesn't want you to go, saying, "I don't want to lose somebody like you again".

Does he refer to the other humans who had fallen? Did they all go a "pacifist" route trying to get home, too? No, I don't think so, because Flowey/Asriel couldn't feel emotional attachment after losing his soul. It wasn't until the 6th child (you/Frisk) that there were enough souls (gathered and present) to awaken Omega Asriel.

So who the hell is Asriel talking about?

Is he upset about losing his parents? Since this ending is achieved by doing a pacifist run after a neutral end, it stands to reason that he recognizes the mercy in your Friskcter and directly correlates it to his ultra-sweet parents. Of course a kid is gonna miss his mom and dad.
- HOWEVER - During the epilogue, if you choose to go back to the very beginning of the Ruins you will find young Asriel, alive with his soul again. He refuses to go back to his parents to avoid breaking their hearts all over again. Has he simply resigned to this decision, or is Asriel still talking about somebody else he didn't want to let go of...?

It couldn't possibly be in reference to the First Human -- how? He knew that Chara climbed the mountain for a bad reason.

WORST END SPOILERS Doing a No Mercy run means essentially channeling Chara throughout the game, effectively bringing them "back to life" at the crux of the run (though the only point in that, since literally everybody in the underground is frickin dead, would be to coerce YOU, the player, into giving your own soul over (another thought on that; this appears to specifically mean you, not Frisk/your overworld avatar, because for all intents and purposes, that human child is the reincarnation of Chara, not you -- but I digress (severely. sorry.)) . < woof.

**Alphys is likely also aware that Chara was... er, not wholesome, to say the least. It's unclear (and unlikely) that Alphys can do anything to interfere with Chara.
Interestingly, Alphys is the only NPC you cannot fight and kill in any run, even No Mercy. Hmm.

Alright, I'm done for now.

I fixed the name swap issue. Thanks for confirming.
Last edited by dirtsaliva; Sep 28, 2015 @ 7:23am
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Showing 1-15 of 19 comments
Quetzhal Sep 28, 2015 @ 3:20am 
The First Child is "Chara", not Frisk. You have that backwards. : P It's why everyone acknowledges you as Frisk once you're in the playable epilogue. I assume the reason the name starts Hard Mode is because you need to have completed the game up until the True Ending to even learn about the name. I'm not sure there are any significant story-specific reasons, although you could certainly spin it into a reincarnation tale.

As I understand it, the plan was indeed for Chara (no real proof that's his name; I assume it's a joke, but it's easier to refer to him/her as Chara) to effectively off himself via the poison so that Asriel could absorb his soul and go out into the surface, and through that collect the souls they need to break the barrier.

Asriel's talking about Chara, when he references not wanting to lose "you" again. Their initial friendship was partially based around Asriel projecting his desire to have a friend onto Chara. For lack of a better term, he basically ignored all the signs that Chara might have been a bad person because he wanted to believe that Chara was good. That didn't change even when he became Flowey - he treats Frisk as Chara because he wants to believe that Chara came back to him.
dirtsaliva Sep 28, 2015 @ 7:50am 
Originally posted by Quetzhal:
The First Child is "Chara", not Frisk. You have that backwards. : P
Originally posted by sdrawkcaB ssA:
Frisk is you - the player character. You gave a name to the first child ("Chara"), the evil one.
Fixed the name problem. Thanks.
Blazeofspikes Sep 28, 2015 @ 10:54am 
What I don't get about Chara is how he became confident in knowing how human souls and monster souls worked in such a way that he could create a evil plan to destroy humanity.
dirtsaliva Sep 28, 2015 @ 7:00pm 
Originally posted by blazeofspike:
What I don't get about Chara is how he became confident in knowing how human souls and monster souls worked in such a way that he could create a evil plan to destroy humanity.
Even Asgore knew it took soul power to break the barrier.
Blazeofspikes Sep 28, 2015 @ 8:44pm 
Originally posted by dirtsaliva:
Originally posted by blazeofspike:
What I don't get about Chara is how he became confident in knowing how human souls and monster souls worked in such a way that he could create a evil plan to destroy humanity.
Even Asgore knew it took soul power to break the barrier.

I am not refering to the barrier. I am referring to the whole "Chara committing sucide by eating the poisonous flowers so that Asriel could then absorb Charas soul plan." Though I guess everything can be roughly summed up by theorycrafting a timeline that there is a unknown number of humans who died in the ruins before Chara came into the ruins so that Alphys is able to have the background of how human souls work.
Uroboros Sep 28, 2015 @ 9:06pm 
TL;DR :
Mistaken identity. An eternity without emotions and infinite resets, while lonely, with the mind of a child betrayed by someone they felt was a dear friend... it was something akin to 'afterlife trauma'. They couldn't grasp the reality of the situation in their twisted form, and so believed you were the First Child, their brother. You aren't. You are the Last Child, the seventh human to become lost in the underground, named Frisk. They latched onto an obsession with you, desperate to find some form of bond or emotion, but were also uncertain of your real identity. They didnt' know whether to kill you or ally to you, and when you refused to kill, it frustrated them (on top of an eternity of neurosis). When you SAVE Asriel, just like your friends before him, it restores his memories... the memories of a sad, lonely child that died, that became suppressed. Flowey is a twisted husk, aged through timejumps and influenced by the imprint of an evil being... a zombie that sprang out of ill-fated research and spirit/soul imprints of two dead children. One an example of innocence, the other an example of toxic manipulation and ill-will. The souls that Flowey absorbs jumpstarts an emotional reawakening, triggering more confusion. As the Omega Asriel entity goes through with the world reset, it is the pure Asriel part of him that you 'SAVE', bringing his real self to the surface, clearing his mind. At the end of the game, Asriel is reawakened and 'cleansed' of his corrupted neurosis, and Frisk is still the one with DETERMINATION, meaning that even should Asriel start to slip again, he can't become corrupted and twisted because he wouldn't be able to save/load. His actions would stick unless you say so.


---


The Longer Version :
Flowey is the reanimated version of Asriel trapped in a flower and corrupted through an eternity of lifetimes in lonliness and without emotion. They cannot feel emotion because they have no soul, and are effectively a flower-zombie. After an absurd number of restarts, the being known as Asriel has warped into something else, presumably due to an imprint that the evil being within the First Child left on him. The memories of his original life become muddled and buried under all his frustrations and lonliness. Without the ability to feel, as a form of science-created abomination zombie, his personality twists along with his earliest memories from before becoming Flowey.

When Flowey absorbs all those souls in the true ending, they basically get zapped by a defibrilator, the soul energy begins the slow process of restarting their ability to feel. As the fight against Frisk (the Last Child, the one you control) rages on, the soul energy circulates through him. He starts to feel all those long-dead emotions, as an unintentional side-effect of trying to perform a world-restart. The world restart was not their original plan, but something they decided to do after they became Asriel and their feelings started to get conflicted.

When you "SAVE" your friends, restoring their memories while they are absorbed inside of Asriel, Asriel is forced to remember his links to them too, as well as forced to understand their feelings about the world and you.

Consider what you're doing when you SAVE your friends. You are restoring their memories so that they don't fade out of existence and become part of the reset. When saved, they resist along with you, also showing determination. When you "SAVE" Asriel, you are in fact restoring his memories. His REAL memories, from before being Flowey. Every step of the fight that he is trying to hurt you or reset the world, he is one step closer to becoming a feeling, remembering version of himself.

The moment you actually SAVE him, he realises not only who he himself is, but who you are too. He was so alone for all that time, that he latched onto an image of kindness from his past. Sadly, that image of kindness was the First Child. You look just like him.

In the Genocide route, you learn that when Toriel abandons Asgore and monsterkind to go live in the Ruins to warn lost humans, she actually took the corpse of the First Child with her, to give him a proper burial away from the anti-human sentiment (and she buries it in the flower-pile you land on, in the first room of the game). The evil impulse/entity that possessed the First Child then apparently goes on to possess Frisk, but whether Frisk is dominated by the First Child's will, or whether he suppresses it and becomes a living prison for it, is all down to your DETERMINATION. If you go full Genocide, Flowey themselves **completely** recognises you as the First Child, and even says that you are in possession of a stolen soul (Frisk).

It's hard to follow, but I found that it makes sense in retrospect.
Last edited by Uroboros; Sep 28, 2015 @ 9:32pm
VGBM Sep 28, 2015 @ 9:10pm 
Originally posted by blazeofspike:
I am not refering to the barrier. I am referring to the whole "Chara committing sucide by eating the poisonous flowers so that Asriel could then absorb Charas soul plan." Though I guess everything can be roughly summed up by theorycrafting a timeline that there is a unknown number of humans who died in the ruins before Chara came into the ruins so that Alphys is able to have the background of how human souls work.
I'm pretty sure how human souls work was discovered long before the underground became a thing. It seems to be implied that that's what started the war in the first place.
Blazeofspikes Sep 28, 2015 @ 9:58pm 
Originally posted by VGBM:
I'm pretty sure how human souls work was discovered long before the underground became a thing. It seems to be implied that that's what started the war in the first place.
There is no information on the war between the humans and the monsters besides the opening intro of: it occured for some reason, the humans won the war, and the monsters were sealed underground. Unless I missed something ingame, I simply can't see where you came up with that conclusion.
VGBM Sep 28, 2015 @ 10:40pm 
Originally posted by blazeofspike:
There is no information on the war between the humans and the monsters besides the opening intro of: it occured for some reason, the humans won the war, and the monsters were sealed underground. Unless I missed something ingame, I simply can't see where you came up with that conclusion.
From the plaques in Waterfall. In fact, I think it's explicitely stated there somewhere that the humans went to war with the monsters because they feared their ability to absorb human souls, even though no monster was able to take advantage of this during the war because the humans were just too strong.
AccidentByDragon Sep 28, 2015 @ 10:51pm 
Originally posted by VGBM:
From the plaques in Waterfall. In fact, I think it's explicitely stated there somewhere that the humans went to war with the monsters because they feared their ability to absorb human souls, even though no monster was able to take advantage of this during the war because the humans were just too strong.
it is stated on the plaques in the waterfall area.
also i get the feeling that the whole prophecy about the angel is reffering to Asriel rather than the player character.
Last edited by AccidentByDragon; Sep 28, 2015 @ 10:51pm
dat_potatoe Sep 28, 2015 @ 11:11pm 
Originally posted by DragonsDoodoo:
it is stated on the plaques in the waterfall area.
also i get the feeling that the whole prophecy about the angel is reffering to Asriel rather than the player character.

I remember the plaque saying something along the lines of "The angel will come, and the underground will go empty."

I think it's more fitting for the player because it can be interpreted two ways and applies to both playthroughs.
1. The underground goes empty because you lead everyone out of it.
2. The underground goes empty because you kill everything.
Last edited by dat_potatoe; Sep 28, 2015 @ 11:11pm
VGBM Sep 28, 2015 @ 11:11pm 
Originally posted by DragonsDoodoo:
it is stated on the plaques in the waterfall area.
also i get the feeling that the whole prophecy about the angel is reffering to Asriel rather than the player character.
Actually, I noticed that the prophecy comes true in both non-neutral endings.

-In the true ending, the angel is Asriel who empties the underground by breaking the barrier and freeing everyone.
-In the genocide ending, the "angel" is Chara who empties the place by killing everyone.


EDIT:
@dat_potatoe: Except the prophecy expicitely refers to the angel as someone who "left the underground and returned" or something like that, so it can't be Frisk, as they've never been there before.
Last edited by VGBM; Sep 28, 2015 @ 11:15pm
Sharpington Sep 28, 2015 @ 11:45pm 
Yeah I think a lot of people get mixed up in the timeline of events.

1. People are afraid of monsters killing them and taking their souls
2. They trap all the monsters underground with the barrier
3. Many years pass. First child falls and is claimed by royal family. They move to New Home.
4. First child sees they can become stronger and get revenge(?) on their village by fusing their soul with Asriel
5. Asriel absorbs the soul and goes to the village, but can not bring himself to kill anyone. He returns and disintigrates on the garden in the throne room
6. Monsters lose all sense of hope, Asgore decides humans will be captured for their souls. Toriel leaves with the First Child, buries them and locks herself in the ruins.
7. hundreds or thousands of years pass. In that time six other humans have fallen and been captured for their souls.
8. Alphys makes Mettaton, and is commissioned to isolate DETERMINATION
9. she creates the amalgamations, and then creates Flowey
10. Frisk

I think the First child was a little more complicated when they were alive. They were either running from their village or committing suicide. I think the latter makes more sense as its tied in with feelings of helplessness and weakness. Then they suddenly had the chance to become stronger than anyone else and get back at the people that hurt them. In their eyes Asriel betrayed them in the worst possible way--they killed themselves to get revenge, just for Asriel to throw that huge sacrifice away like it was nothing. I think their last moments of consiousness would have been overwhelmed with bitterness, and as their human soul vanished, that bitterness was the only thing left to transfer on the flowers and their dead body, and the only part of them to wake up when Frisk falls.

Remember how level of violence works---it's easier to hurt others when you withdraw, but it's also harder to get hurt yourself. The First Child was hurting, and I think Toriel and Agore recognized that. In the genocide route she sees exactly how terrible and dangerous you are. It is pointed out that you aren't human because the First Child's humanity left them a very very long time ago. That child essentially killed themselves twice and still everything was taken from them. I think they don't just have a disdain for humans, the have a disdain for LIFE. In the genocide route you get to decide when people die, you get to reap all the benefits. You satiate all of the demon's needs, and because that hatred and emptiness is the only thing left the demon takes over so it can reap that satisfaction until there's nothing.
Xxanno Sep 29, 2015 @ 10:07am 
Woooow. This is some deep ♥♥♥♥.
Xxanno Sep 29, 2015 @ 10:09am 
And here I tought the first child where a nice kid, but it turns out I where evil. Or where hies soul overwhelmed by Frisk? (I got the true good ending)
Last edited by Xxanno; Sep 29, 2015 @ 10:10am
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Date Posted: Sep 28, 2015 @ 2:00am
Posts: 19