[MEGASPOILERS] True end, Chara's identity, etc.

[ImpTwins]

So a lot of people seem to be hiccuping on the exact events and identity of a few specific people. Namely Chara (the true name of the First Child), Frisk (the person you play as), Flowey and Asriel. Thought I'd attempt to clear this up.

So let's go in chronological order.

Chara fell into the underground a long time ago. The kid is a psycho. They hate humans, Asriel states in the flower bed conversation they were definitely not a good person, and they show some real sadistic tendencies. They befriended Asriel, perhaps hoping that monsters wouldn't disgust them like humans do, or perhaps out of fear (might not have realized just how powerful their hatred made them). In any case, they eventually come up with their plot, and they suggested it to Asriel. Chara would kill themselves, Asriel would absorb the soul, and they'd have enough power to go to the surface, get more souls, and then come back and break the barrier. But Chara's plan was different. With that power, they could absorb more human souls, get stronger and stronger, and reduce everything to dust. Or just humans, at least; I suspect Chara upgrading from 'murderer' to 'reality-ender' was the effect of a loooong solitude.

But they underestimated Asriel. Their plan seems to have been to work the humans into a fit of rage, kill them, then open the barrier, inciting another war. Or maybe they just wanted the humans to fight them straight off the bat to make the murder more fun. But when they go to bury Chara's body and the humans attack them, when Chara tries to wipe them out, Asriel stops them. "They wanted to use our full power," Asriel says in the flowerbed conversation. So with Asriel stopping them from being able to nuke the place, they retreat into the underground, Asriel seemingly back in control at this point. He falls, and his dust spreads over the flowers in the King's throne room; including a single seed from the golden flowers of the overworld (which Alphys noted were very sticky; likely one got stuck to his clothes or person). Asriel's body and soul are gone, Chara's soul is gone, and only Chara's body remains. Asgore, furious, orders that any human that falls into the underground is to be killed and their soul secured. Toriel, disgusted, vanishes, thought to be dead.

Skip forward. Six more humans fall, six souls are harvested. Alphys is trying to research human souls and ways to break the barrier without using any more humans. Using W.D. Gaster's research, she creates a machine to extract determination. Asgore lends her the six souls for research. With this she injects monsters who had 'fallen down' and were in a coma-like state with determination. It saves them. For a while. Eventually they start to melt, which seems to be a natural occurrence when monsters have determination (Undyne melts slightly before fading to dust when killed in the neutral path, seemingly the only monster in the game who just naturally created their own determination). But with that much determination they don't melt then die like Undyne did, they melt into an amorphous mess and continue to 'live.' Using monster bodies as a vessel for determination is a failure. Given that monster's can't absorb monster souls and humans can't absorb human souls Alphys decides to try something that's neither. The golden flowers. She picks the one from the center of Asgore's garden, the one from the outside world.

Nothing happens. Alphys returns the souls and the flower, deeming the research a total failure. But like the monsters injected with determination, Flowey just needed time. The determination gives the flower the will to live, but no soul of its own. It takes the identity of Asriel, although exactly how much of Asriel it is is hard to say. It's entirely possible it's not even Asriel in any capacity, but that's just the closest thing to an identity the flower can latch on to. Or the lingering determination of Asriel could have latched onto the flower, something that will happen again (and more proven) later on. Hard to say.

Somewhere among all of this, Asgore had taken Chara's body and mummified it; Toriel, however, took the body with her when she retreated to the Ruins, and buried it either under the bed of flowers you wake up on at the beginning of the game or under the black tree that sheds its leaves whenever it grows them. Personally I believe the latter, for purely aesthetic reasons, but this one is thoroughly up in the air.

Flowey wakes up in Asgore's garden. Asgore doesn't recognize him. It's unknown whether Flowey even tells him who he (thinks he) is, but in any case Asgore can't fill the void in his mind. Flowey eventually decides to follow Toriel to the ruins instead, hoping that of all people his mother can restore his emotions. She can't. At this point, Flowey decides to end his life. But it refused. He wakes up at his SAVE point, realizing a new power.

At first Flowey uses this power for good. He tries to meet friends and steer them in the right direction, helping their lives, pushing them towards their happy endings like any good little RPG gamer. But it proves hollow. Eventually they just become predictable and boring. He knows what they're going to say, how they'll react. His goodness fades. He hurts people to see their reactions. He finds this more interesting. Perhaps some of Chara's soul imprinted on Asriel's when they were merged. It bears mentioning at this point that negative emotions seem to be in a very different class to positive ones in the Undertale universe. Flowey is incapable of feeling happiness or fulfillment but he very much seems capable of feeling bitterness, anger and even outright sadism (and, later on, fear). A book in the librarby states that a soul is capable of existing without positive emotions; this could mean that a soulless being - sometimes referred to as a demon - is capable of feeling negative emotions but not positive ones.

Finally, Frisk arrives. They drop into the underground, and this is where Chara comes back in. Throughout the genocide route we learn that Chara is still a consciousness, but they don't quite seem to be a soul, at least not a full one. Perhaps they've been warped into something between monster and human from the merge with Asriel. They're basically concentrated determination, just a condensed malicious force of will. Whatever the case, only a human can contain Chara's determination without melting, but it's only when Frisk goes down the genocide path and becomes powerful enough that Chara truly re-awakens in response to their strength. Why Chara didn't awaken with any of the prior humans is hard to say, but it's most likely that none of them had as much determination as Frisk and thus didn't have the ability to save, meaning their stay in the underground was short-lived. Alternatively it's possible that Chara's soul was only freed by whatever experiments Alphys did on Flowey; perhaps tampering with Asriel's dust freed the soul of both Asriel and Chara.

Many people believe the body is Chara's, but that doesn't really explain what happened to Frisk's body, why nobody recognized them, or how their body didn't deteriorate. The simplest solution is that Chara's warped spirit/consciousness comes to inhabit Frisk's body and the pacifist/genocide paths are the fight for dominance between them. It's likely been a MINIMUM of 50 years since Chara first fell to the underground, since the only person who even recognizes who Toriel is is Sans who is likely very old due to time shenanigans. It could have been much longer; it's stated that Boss Monsters only age as their offspring do, and with Asriel dead Asgore and Toriel are ageless. Sans is likewise probably immortal, the only aging character left alive is the turtle shopkeeper near Waterfall. Given how old human-world turtles can live for, who knows how old that guy is. In a nutshell, Chara's body would not be in good condition.

On top of all of this, their sprites are different. We know that the intro is actually Chara, not Frisk, who is shown falling into the underground and examining the calendar in Asgore's house on the genocide route confirms this. In both that intro and when we see Chara's real body in the outro of the genocide route, they have just a single stripe on their shirt, lighter skin than Frisk, pants instead of shorts and very slightly different hair. It's still possible, but I believe it leaves more unanswered questions than it covers. Simply put, both scenarios have as much evidence supporting them, but Chara being the body has much more evidence debunking it.

So that's it. Frisk and Chara share Frisk's body, though Chara will only awaken if Frisk becomes enormously powerful by killing enough monsters. Asriel is most likely dead with Flowey a sort of imprint of his soul (a play on the echo flowers? Flowey is like an echo of Asriel's soul), though for all intents and purposes Flowey has completely taken on Asriel's identity. Alternatively the remnants of Asriel's warped spirit and determination are possessing the flower in the same way Chara is possessing Frisk. I'm sure people would prefer that explanation. :b

[GhostyGG]

I believe that Frisk's soul is possessing the Fallen Child's body. Otherwise, why would everyone recognize him as such, and refer to Frisk by Chara's name? Also, Determination is magical I assume, which means it is metaphysical and doesn't need something like the body of a human :)

Alphy's entries said that monsters injected with enough determination wouldn't turn to dust, instead they would lie completely still. Yes, they would melt, but I remember she said something about the monsters not completely dying but not waking up either. Chara's determination is strong enough to last this long, how much you want to bet it kept his body alive all that time as well? :D Also, the bed of flowers you wake up in are yellow, and the ones under the tree, are red. Correct me on this, but I'm pretty sure they intended to bury him/her under the yellow flowers (I only speculate because the throne room is full of yellow flowers).

I'll be reaching too far out on this, but what if Frisk didn't fall at all? What if he died on the mountain? Determined, his soul found it's way to the nearest body underground. I would imagine that children do not survive that long in the wilderness. The Fallen Child has enough determination to keep his body intact all of these years, but not his consciousness, and after Frisk dies his soul occupies his body. That's the only way I can explain the Fallen Child's ability to take over Frisk, after he goes on a murderous rampage, is if Frisk occupies the same body.

Because the body is being occupied by two human souls, and the because the body is also decaying, Asgore cannot make out whether or not you are human. In the Genocide run, he asks Frisk, "What kind of monster are you? I cannot tell" If Frisk was using his normal body, which would be completely intact (a fall would probably not render you unrecognizable). However, if the Fallen Child wasn't awoken, your body is still able to retain that small bit of humanity left, and continue (while being recognizable enough as a human).

[Senator Jim Death]

Does Toriel ever ask your name when you're in the ruins? She doesn't seem very surprised considering she's found a child who looks similar to Chara. I don't suppose she's a good enough actor to not be disturbed at all to see a child who looks like her dead adopted child AND has the same name.

It's always seemed to me a little unsatisfying how the game suggests that Frisk and Chara look similar, and yet only the boss monster family recognizes the similarity... unless I'm forgetting someone. Sans is about the only candidate for mentioning it that I can come up with, but I don't seem to remember it coming up until the end. I suppose it's critical to the framing of the story to not reveal too early that the player has conflated the two characters by a statement that Frisk and Chara are different entities. It would be underwhelming if someone early on pointed out how much you look like the royal family's adopted child before you even knew there were two children in the royal family... unless it was done in a throwaway line that nobody would pay much attention to. Maybe without the special knowledge a person gets from finishing the game, a line like that wouldn't hold the meaning that it does when I think about it now.

By the way, OP, thank you for the summary.

[Matt T. Bastard]

I'm trying to sum up my thoughts on the matter but it's all a jumbled mess.

I believe you are controlling the fallen child's body, what with Flowey believeing you are them, the Bandage item ("they've been used many times") and the bandages in the fallen child's coffin.

Apparently in this world human souls can return to their bodies, evident by the coffins being open after "Asriel" releases them. Perhaps monsters are incapable of physically harming humans, as they are beings of emotion, and are only capable of separating soul from body, rendering them unconscious.

But if this is the case then who does the red soul belong to? It's the colour of the soul on the fallen child's coffin... And if it's another human's soul then where is their body?

This game hurts my brain...

[ImpTwins]

Actually the only character who refers to you as Chara is Flowey. I'm replaying now and one of my biggest things to check off is this, but I'm fairly certain Flowey is the only one. And we know from the ending that Flowey admits he was just projecting onto you, or mistook you for Chara due to their determination maybe.

The monsters injected with determination did indeed wake up. Took a while, but they were able to return completely to normal for a time before they started to melt. As for determination keeping Chara's body intact, that'd be valid if the body still had the determination, which is part of the soul. With Chara's soul floating around the ether the body has no determination to keep it intact.

Chara likely used being buried under the flowers as an excuse to bring their body up to the surface. That seemed to be a plan just between Asriel and Chara. It could very well have been something they shared though, and the body could be beneath the flowers you land on. It's like 50/50 between the tree and flower bed, I just go with the tree because I like the imagery of this malevolent sentience radiating murderous intent being centered on a mysterious tree in a constant state of death.

Frisk's soul and Chara's spirit are definitely in the same body, no question. Whether it's Frisk's or Chara's body is more up in the air. The 'died on the mountain' theory has weight, especially since we never actually see Frisk's body fall - the child in the intro is actually Chara - but my gut feeling is that it's been way more than 50 years since Chara fell and with no determination their body would rot. Still being Frisk's body just seems simpler.

I think Asgore not knowing whether you're a human is just a reference to how terrifying Chara is meant to be by that stage. They'd be covered in dust, probably very wounded from the Sans fight, and pretty much completely given in to sadism. They probably look pretty freaky.

Also, I just now noticed this. In the intro the child (Chara) has a single stripe on their shirt. In the outro of the Genocide route, their sprite, single stripe. Frisk, two stripes.

[GhostyGG]

Well, there is that, but it might be because of story pacing. However, when you actually kill Toriel she says something along the lines of, "I didn't see it before until now, that I wasn't sheltering YOU, but THEM" there is a bit of familiarity associated with the way it was written. Several characters (I'll be damned if I could remember) I'm pretty sure, refer to you by the Fallen Child's name, and after the 'twist' you're supposed to realize something along that line.

Senator Jim Death님이 먼저 게시:

Does Toriel ever ask your name when you're in the ruins? She doesn't seem very surprised considering she's found a child who looks similar to Chara. I don't suppose she's a good enough actor to not be disturbed at all to see a child who looks like her dead adopted child AND has the same name.

It's always seemed to me a little unsatisfying how the game suggests that Frisk and Chara look similar, and yet only the boss monster family recognizes the similarity... unless I'm forgetting someone. Sans is about the only candidate for mentioning it that I can come up with, but I don't seem to remember it coming up until the end. I suppose it's critical to the framing of the story to not reveal too early that the player has conflated the two characters by a statement that Frisk and Chara are different entities. It would be underwhelming if someone early on pointed out how much you look like the royal family's adopted child before you even knew there were two children in the royal family... unless it was done in a throwaway line that nobody would pay much attention to. Maybe without the special knowledge a person gets from finishing the game, a line like that wouldn't hold the meaning that it does when I think about it now.

By the way, OP, thank you for the summary.

[ImpTwins]

That quote from Toriel is just referring to her protecting the monsters outside the ruins from you. As I said, not certain on whether others refer to you as Chara, but it's kind of irrelevant because the only people who would've been alive at the time are Toriel, Asgore and Sans, none of which recognize you as Chara.

[GhostyGG]

Well, you should also count the fact that Frisk wakes up in the body that is coincidentally just like Chara would be wearing if he/she were still alive. When you go to Asgore's house I think, there is a closet full of striped shirts, and your character spawns with that same shirt shown in the intro (I believe you mentioned in the intro it showed chara and not Frisk falling into the pit). Also, the Throne Room has yellow flowers, as well as the pile of flowers you awaken in. Didn't Asriel die with Chara in the throne room? I can't remember haha, this is way too specific.

Take note that Frisk's eyes are always closed, it could be a plot point, were his body still alive wouldn't he still be able to see? Or at least open them? When the Fallen Child awakens, you see a similar picture of Frisk but it's eyes are open, symbolism! In the Genocide run, Sans and Papyrus both describe you as a shambling creepy corpse, lol. I really do believe that Frisk is possessing Chara's body, there's just too much that points to it.

[ImpTwins]

Chara is wearing a single striped shirt and pants instead of shorts in both the intro and the conversation with them in the genocide outro. If it was just one instance you could pass it off as a different outfit but wearing the same thing on the two times we /definitely/ see Chara it comes off more as 'their' outfit.

Asriel died with Chara in the throne room, yes. But Toriel brought Chara's body back to the ruins at some point. It's never explicitly stated where she buried it, just that she did, somewhere in there.

There are a lot of things that point to both outcomes, of either Frisk or Chara's body. Both have lots of hints thrown in. But one has a mysterious and unexplained missing body and a bunch of people not recognizing a body that they absolutely should, and the other doesn't have any holes, it just turns some dialogue into red herrings. If we're looking at plot holes vs unusual red herrings I'll go with the latter.

[Senator Jim Death]

You know, at the end of a genocide run, I always sort of assumed that Chara was talking to Frisk in Frisk's mind. I suppose that Chara could have been talking to the player, which could make the red soul a representation the player's soul. It's a little farfetched, though. That would mean that Frisk supplies the body, Chara possesses it, and we supply the soul and determination. It would in a way explain why no monster can actually take the red soul after they kill Frisk, even though that's pretty much exactly what nearly all of them are trying to do including Asgore. We don't exactly see it NOT happen, I admit, and it's certainly possible that we ruin the monsters's Frisk-less happily-ever-after every time we reload after getting a game over.

But then Chara would be asking us--the player--to sell our soul to them to play the game again, which makes things a little overly dramatic.

EDIT: I am also certain that Asgore's voice tells Chara not to give up at the game-over screen sometimes. I don't remember if he does this when you sleep at Toriel's house before asking her about leaving the ruins. It's possible that this is some kind of flashback or that Asgore is otherwise not actually talking to Frisk or the player.

EDIT 2 as I read the comments that came in while I was composing: If determination is part of the soul, determination is what allows saving, and Flowey has no soul, then how is he able to save? Asriel's soul? In-game he never does the save trick until he takes the other human souls, but he states he was able to do it before we came on the scene.

[GhostyGG]

Well, it doesn't count for Frisk's constantly closed eyes, and the clothes that look coincidentally similar to Chara's clothing.

The game itself has many subtle hints, like how flowey 'hints' himself as the 'prince of this world's future'. So, with the golden flowers, the closed eyes, striped shirt... I can't write it off. Whether or not they should recognize the body, really depends on the amount of time passed. And if it's been around 50 years, it would be hard to recognize a decaying body at that point (the Fallen Child's determination keeping the body intact all these years? Afterall he/she was evil down to the core).

[ImpTwins]

Yeah I don't think it's actually a physical entity when Chara appears, but they're definitely wearing different clothes. That being said they do actually kill you. It's hard to tell what's real and what's psychological in that ending. I believe it's a mental struggle for dominance, since before then Chara had been influencing you subconsciously whereas once you hit Lv20 they're properly awakened as a separate consciousness. I believe the soul is Frisk's - because Chara no longer has one - the body is Frisk's, and the determination is a mix. Likely the reason Chara wants your soul is both that it's in the way - with it around Chara can never truly be unimpeded in control of Frisk's body - and they could also want it as a conduit for their determination, it might not be entirely stable since the soul is the origin of determination and they no longer have one. It's very possible that's the reason it takes Chara so long to wake up, their determination could be slowly fading over time since there's no soul attached to it, and they need to steal someone's to tether their consciousness.

As to why Frisk's soul explodes whenever they die, that's a real good question. Could just be aesthetic. Maybe Chara subconsciously destroys the soul since Asgore finally absorbing all seven would probably put his determination above anything Chara could muster outside of the full genocide ending. Hell, it could even be Sans trying to wipe it out for good.

[ImpTwins]

Flowey has determination. Determination originates in the soul, and Flowey's came from the six other human souls, but it seems to be able to exist, if perhaps temporarily, without a soul.

I think people would raise a fuss if Frisk's body was literally /rotting/, they do know what a human looks like, and there'd have to be at least SOME indication on the sprite. Again, yes, there's a lot of things that point to it being Chara's body, but just as many things for Frisk's and far less glaring holes in the logic.

As for Asgore addressing you as Chara, I have no idea. Maybe a relic from before Toby had solidified the Chara/Frisk idea. Asgore doesn't address you as Chara at any other point in the game other than game overs and the rare sleeping dialogue. It doesn't even make sense that he'd have telepathy or he'd probably be bothering Torial in hopes she's still alive 24/7. It's strange but it might just be one of the exceedingly rare oversights.

[Senator Jim Death]

Shinkada Weisseritter님이 먼저 게시:

... the only people who would've been alive at the time are Toriel, Asgore and Sans, none of which recognize you as Chara.

The shopkeeper in Waterfall is stated as having been alive and fighting during the war. Do we have any other indication how long of a time elapsed between Asriel and Chara being alive and the start or end of the war? I guess being a very old turtle doesn't limit the time much considering how long turtles can live.

It's sensible that none of the monsters alive at the time of the game were alive when Chara was around, explaining why nobody recognizes you. And I guess there really aren't many evident physical similarties between Frisk and Chara except the hair color and style, build, and "they both wear a striped shirt." I hadn't recognized that the shirt was different, and that explains why I thought there were more similarities between them. And plenty of people could have the same body habitus along with brown hair.

[GhostyGG]

By that I meant, that flowey was kind of revealing himself as Asriel (even though you don't know who that is yet). When I finally discovered Asgore, I began to wonder if he had a son, and I dunno, the clues kind of clicked!

Yes, you are completely right though, if he were decaying there'd be some indication. However, Chara was evil, full of determination, what if it refused to die? With enough determination, Alphys' entries suggest that with just enough a monster could stave off death. I'm pretty sure the only reason they woke up was because she kept injecting more determination into them. That's when they woke up and acted like nothing was wrong. Again, Frisk 'wakes' with his eyes closed, and he's like that throughout the entire game. I think it's a bit silly to suggest he's actually running around the Underground with his eyes closed. When Chara is awakened, you see a similar sprite with opened eyes. From the game's narrative standpoint, and the way it is presented, it seems more than clear that you are possessing Chara's body. So far, souls need a vessel to act on their own too, and I find it strange that Chara (during genocide) visibly takes control of Frisk. Remember, these are points in the story where Chara isn't awoken yet, and when you meet Sans and Papyrus, you're actually pretty far from the Ruins. It's only until you reach the highest level of violence does Chara actually wake up and talk to you.

[ImpTwins]

Chara's sprite in the genocide ending also wears different colours, has lighter skin and open eyes (different ethnicity? Frisk could just have Brock-eyes and they're actually open), and even slightly different hair.

The turtle also would've been alive, yeah. I forget his name, I think it's mentioned by Undyne in a phonecall. He also doesn't recognize Chara if it is indeed their body.

No real indication, no. Asgore calls Chara the 'hope of humanity,' so there's an implication the monsters had been stuck in the underground for some time before they fell. Also they needed time to at least burrow deeper into New Home after settling in Home for a while, and time for Home to decay into the ruins we see. Plus Muppet says the spiders have been trapped in the ruins "for generations" but that could be anything.

It's possible Chara's body has some determination left in it, but if there was that much 'consciousness' to it then it would've possessed the prior humans, rather than only be awakened when Frisk levels up enough. I don't think Chara has any conscious control until Frisk finally hits Lv20 when there's a very sudden awakening, before then it's all just subconscious guiding.

I mean, we could argue like this forever. It comes down to this: we have two possible theories here. Both have plenty pointing to them. You want to take the one with actual inexplicable plot holes?