[MEGASPOILERS] True end, Chara's identity, etc.

[ImpTwins]

So a lot of people seem to be hiccuping on the exact events and identity of a few specific people. Namely Chara (the true name of the First Child), Frisk (the person you play as), Flowey and Asriel. Thought I'd attempt to clear this up.

So let's go in chronological order.

Chara fell into the underground a long time ago. The kid is a psycho. They hate humans, Asriel states in the flower bed conversation they were definitely not a good person, and they show some real sadistic tendencies. They befriended Asriel, perhaps hoping that monsters wouldn't disgust them like humans do, or perhaps out of fear (might not have realized just how powerful their hatred made them). In any case, they eventually come up with their plot, and they suggested it to Asriel. Chara would kill themselves, Asriel would absorb the soul, and they'd have enough power to go to the surface, get more souls, and then come back and break the barrier. But Chara's plan was different. With that power, they could absorb more human souls, get stronger and stronger, and reduce everything to dust. Or just humans, at least; I suspect Chara upgrading from 'murderer' to 'reality-ender' was the effect of a loooong solitude.

But they underestimated Asriel. Their plan seems to have been to work the humans into a fit of rage, kill them, then open the barrier, inciting another war. Or maybe they just wanted the humans to fight them straight off the bat to make the murder more fun. But when they go to bury Chara's body and the humans attack them, when Chara tries to wipe them out, Asriel stops them. "They wanted to use our full power," Asriel says in the flowerbed conversation. So with Asriel stopping them from being able to nuke the place, they retreat into the underground, Asriel seemingly back in control at this point. He falls, and his dust spreads over the flowers in the King's throne room; including a single seed from the golden flowers of the overworld (which Alphys noted were very sticky; likely one got stuck to his clothes or person). Asriel's body and soul are gone, Chara's soul is gone, and only Chara's body remains. Asgore, furious, orders that any human that falls into the underground is to be killed and their soul secured. Toriel, disgusted, vanishes, thought to be dead.

Skip forward. Six more humans fall, six souls are harvested. Alphys is trying to research human souls and ways to break the barrier without using any more humans. Using W.D. Gaster's research, she creates a machine to extract determination. Asgore lends her the six souls for research. With this she injects monsters who had 'fallen down' and were in a coma-like state with determination. It saves them. For a while. Eventually they start to melt, which seems to be a natural occurrence when monsters have determination (Undyne melts slightly before fading to dust when killed in the neutral path, seemingly the only monster in the game who just naturally created their own determination). But with that much determination they don't melt then die like Undyne did, they melt into an amorphous mess and continue to 'live.' Using monster bodies as a vessel for determination is a failure. Given that monster's can't absorb monster souls and humans can't absorb human souls Alphys decides to try something that's neither. The golden flowers. She picks the one from the center of Asgore's garden, the one from the outside world.

Nothing happens. Alphys returns the souls and the flower, deeming the research a total failure. But like the monsters injected with determination, Flowey just needed time. The determination gives the flower the will to live, but no soul of its own. It takes the identity of Asriel, although exactly how much of Asriel it is is hard to say. It's entirely possible it's not even Asriel in any capacity, but that's just the closest thing to an identity the flower can latch on to. Or the lingering determination of Asriel could have latched onto the flower, something that will happen again (and more proven) later on. Hard to say.

Somewhere among all of this, Asgore had taken Chara's body and mummified it; Toriel, however, took the body with her when she retreated to the Ruins, and buried it either under the bed of flowers you wake up on at the beginning of the game or under the black tree that sheds its leaves whenever it grows them. Personally I believe the latter, for purely aesthetic reasons, but this one is thoroughly up in the air.

Flowey wakes up in Asgore's garden. Asgore doesn't recognize him. It's unknown whether Flowey even tells him who he (thinks he) is, but in any case Asgore can't fill the void in his mind. Flowey eventually decides to follow Toriel to the ruins instead, hoping that of all people his mother can restore his emotions. She can't. At this point, Flowey decides to end his life. But it refused. He wakes up at his SAVE point, realizing a new power.

At first Flowey uses this power for good. He tries to meet friends and steer them in the right direction, helping their lives, pushing them towards their happy endings like any good little RPG gamer. But it proves hollow. Eventually they just become predictable and boring. He knows what they're going to say, how they'll react. His goodness fades. He hurts people to see their reactions. He finds this more interesting. Perhaps some of Chara's soul imprinted on Asriel's when they were merged. It bears mentioning at this point that negative emotions seem to be in a very different class to positive ones in the Undertale universe. Flowey is incapable of feeling happiness or fulfillment but he very much seems capable of feeling bitterness, anger and even outright sadism (and, later on, fear). A book in the librarby states that a soul is capable of existing without positive emotions; this could mean that a soulless being - sometimes referred to as a demon - is capable of feeling negative emotions but not positive ones.

Finally, Frisk arrives. They drop into the underground, and this is where Chara comes back in. Throughout the genocide route we learn that Chara is still a consciousness, but they don't quite seem to be a soul, at least not a full one. Perhaps they've been warped into something between monster and human from the merge with Asriel. They're basically concentrated determination, just a condensed malicious force of will. Whatever the case, only a human can contain Chara's determination without melting, but it's only when Frisk goes down the genocide path and becomes powerful enough that Chara truly re-awakens in response to their strength. Why Chara didn't awaken with any of the prior humans is hard to say, but it's most likely that none of them had as much determination as Frisk and thus didn't have the ability to save, meaning their stay in the underground was short-lived. Alternatively it's possible that Chara's soul was only freed by whatever experiments Alphys did on Flowey; perhaps tampering with Asriel's dust freed the soul of both Asriel and Chara.

Many people believe the body is Chara's, but that doesn't really explain what happened to Frisk's body, why nobody recognized them, or how their body didn't deteriorate. The simplest solution is that Chara's warped spirit/consciousness comes to inhabit Frisk's body and the pacifist/genocide paths are the fight for dominance between them. It's likely been a MINIMUM of 50 years since Chara first fell to the underground, since the only person who even recognizes who Toriel is is Sans who is likely very old due to time shenanigans. It could have been much longer; it's stated that Boss Monsters only age as their offspring do, and with Asriel dead Asgore and Toriel are ageless. Sans is likewise probably immortal, the only aging character left alive is the turtle shopkeeper near Waterfall. Given how old human-world turtles can live for, who knows how old that guy is. In a nutshell, Chara's body would not be in good condition.

On top of all of this, their sprites are different. We know that the intro is actually Chara, not Frisk, who is shown falling into the underground and examining the calendar in Asgore's house on the genocide route confirms this. In both that intro and when we see Chara's real body in the outro of the genocide route, they have just a single stripe on their shirt, lighter skin than Frisk, pants instead of shorts and very slightly different hair. It's still possible, but I believe it leaves more unanswered questions than it covers. Simply put, both scenarios have as much evidence supporting them, but Chara being the body has much more evidence debunking it.

So that's it. Frisk and Chara share Frisk's body, though Chara will only awaken if Frisk becomes enormously powerful by killing enough monsters. Asriel is most likely dead with Flowey a sort of imprint of his soul (a play on the echo flowers? Flowey is like an echo of Asriel's soul), though for all intents and purposes Flowey has completely taken on Asriel's identity. Alternatively the remnants of Asriel's warped spirit and determination are possessing the flower in the same way Chara is possessing Frisk. I'm sure people would prefer that explanation. :b

[Senator Jim Death]

(I need to stop replying in edits.)

The game-overs and sleeping could just be Chara/Frisk dreaming about Asgore (or Sans I guess considering he talks to you once). After all, doesn't Frisk think their name is Chara until they're told otherwise? I mean, it's implied at some points (the details of which I forget) that Frisk is one of those silent progagonists of the type that other characters can hear talking from time to time, even if we the player never see his words.

God, I can't even remember who tells Frisk that they are Frisk. I do remember that the second-person narrator in Toriel's mirror (maybe Asgore's) says "it's you" before that point of the story and says something like "it's still you, Frisk" after that.

(Irrelevant to the rest of the thread, I've always been interested in how the narriative perspective shifts a bit in the genocide route, as I understand there are some first-person references that are second-person in other routes. Like looking in Alphys's monitor. Now, I'm basing this mostly off of what other people have said.)

[GhostyGG]

Shinkada Weisseritter původně napsal:

Chara's sprite in the genocide ending also wears different colours, has lighter skin and open eyes (different ethnicity? Frisk could just have Brock-eyes and they're actually open), and even slightly different hair.

True, but I've noticed, it may be just me... That chara's sprite has two hearts on the cheeks, and the colors seem reversed? I'll have to check the footage again. But it seems like the sprite itself is more or less a mockery of Frisk's image.

Senator Jim Death původně napsal:

God, I can't even remember who tells Frisk that they are Frisk. I do remember that the second-person narrator in Toriel's mirror (maybe Asgore's) says "it's you" before that point of the story and says something like "it's still you, Frisk" after that.

Asriel reveals this to you :D

[ImpTwins]

Not hearts, just pink pixels. Colours aren't reversed, Chara wears green and yellow while Frisk wears blue and pink.

[Nixitur]

Injured původně napsal:

Senator Jim Death původně napsal:

God, I can't even remember who tells Frisk that they are Frisk. I do remember that the second-person narrator in Toriel's mirror (maybe Asgore's) says "it's you" before that point of the story and says something like "it's still you, Frisk" after that.

Asriel reveals this to you :D

Not quite.
In the True Pacifist ending, Asriel asks for the player character's name. Then, apparently, they answer that their name is Frisk. It's not an NPC revealing the PC's name, it's the PC themselves.

[Senator Jim Death]

Injured původně napsal:

Asriel reveals this to you :D

Oh, I think I remember now.

...

How the hell does Asriel know who Frisk is?

Frisk is some kid who ended up in the underworld probably years after Asriel was dead and/or became Flowey. Nobody in the underworld has any idea who he is. Maybe Sans knows and Asriel found out when he borrowed Sans' soul for a while.

EDIT:

Nixitur původně napsal:

Injured původně napsal:

Asriel reveals this to you :D

Not quite.
In the True Pacifist ending, Asriel asks for the player character's name. Then, apparently, they answer that their name is Frisk. It's not an NPC revealing the PC's name, it's the PC themselves.

OK, so the entire game Frisk knows that he or she is Frisk. That means nobody can call him Chara during the game, otherwise confusion would ensue--as it does with Asriel when he calls Frisk Chara.

[ImpTwins]

Interesting. I guess Frisk knew the whole time and just Silent Protagonist'd their way through Flowey mistaking their identity?

[GhostyGG]

Shinkada Weisseritter původně napsal:

Chara's sprite in the genocide ending also wears different colours, has lighter skin and open eyes (different ethnicity? Frisk could just have Brock-eyes and they're actually open), and even slightly different hair.

The turtle also would've been alive, yeah. I forget his name, I think it's mentioned by Undyne in a phonecall. He also doesn't recognize Chara if it is indeed their body.

It's possible Chara's body has some determination left in it, but if there was that much 'consciousness' to it then it would've possessed the prior humans, rather than only be awakened when Frisk levels up enough. I don't think Chara has any conscious control until Frisk finally hits Lv20 when there's a very sudden awakening, before then it's all just subconscious guiding.

I don't know much about monster uh, biology, but since he's pretty old and only Boss Monsters can last for a very long time, it could be possible that he doesn't remember. He remembered the 'Fluffybuns' speech, but couldn't remember the rest. I would not have the turtle as a reliable source.

Monsters need lots of determination in order to stay alive, because they are made up of mostly magic, while humans have stronger physical forms. Humans have been stated to be stronger, and vastly more resilient than monsters, so I think it is possible for the body to have 'determination' and last that long. If Chara did indeed possess Frisk's body, why does he have to reach 20 levels to awaken it? Why is there no indication of this possession from Chara? That would also mean that Chara is conscious, which is not the case (because you need to reach level 20 to awaken Chara). I also don't believe the 'brock eyes' theory, it's quite clear that Frisk's eyes are closed.

Shinkada Weisseritter původně napsal:

I mean, we could argue like this forever. It comes down to this: we have two possible theories here. Both have plenty pointing to them. You want to take the one with actual inexplicable plot holes?

Who is arguing? I'm only speculating because I care about the story. I'd like to know more, but for now all we can do is brain storm :D

[Senator Jim Death]

OK, so Flowey and Asriel, we think, are the only people who mistake Frisk for Chara. They're also both the same person, so only one person in the game mistakes Frisk for Chara. The player also presumably mistakes Frisk for Chara because of the intro and because Flowey/Asriel does so as well. The game simply never disabuses the player of this notion until the end, when Asriel and Frisk talk about who Frisk really is.

EDIT: In-game, Asgore uses Chara's name in what is probably a dream of Chara's/Frisk's. At game-over Asgore is talking directly to the player using Chara's name to support the conflation of Frisk and Chara--Sans later uses the same medium to talk directly to the player, so the game-over messages are meant for the player.

[Nixitur]

Shinkada Weisseritter původně napsal:

Interesting. I guess Frisk knew the whole time and just Silent Protagonist'd their way through Flowey mistaking their identity?

Or maybe it's similar to how in the Genocide ending, Chara has complete control of the body and reacts as Chara would, as with the "day I fell".
In the True Pacifist ending, it's the exact opposite. Frisk has complete control of the body and answers as Frisk would.
I'd say that until the ending, the consciousness in the body (a mixture of Frisk and Chara) has a bit of amnesia and doesn't know quite what the hell is going on. It's only if you go the Pacifist or Genocide route that they learn who they truly are.

[GhostyGG]

Nixitur původně napsal:

Shinkada Weisseritter původně napsal:

Interesting. I guess Frisk knew the whole time and just Silent Protagonist'd their way through Flowey mistaking their identity?

Or maybe it's similar to how in the Genocide ending, Chara has complete control of the body and reacts as Chara would, as with the "day I fell".
In the True Pacifist ending, it's the exact opposite. Frisk has complete control of the body and answers as Frisk would.
I'd say that until the ending, the consciousness in the body (a mixture of Frisk and Chara) has a bit of amnesia and doesn't know quite what the hell is going on. It's only if you go the Pacifist or Genocide route that they learn who they truly are.

That makes a lot of sense, I can see where my theory about Frisk's body being Chara's fits in, and it only fits in with the Genocide run.

"Your power awakened me from death. My 'human soul.' My 'determination.' They were not mine, but YOURS. At first I was confused...."

I guess my theory was correct but only really applies to the genocide run.

[ImpTwins]

Monsters don't have determination naturally. That's why Alphys was researching it. The only monster to naturally have determination was Undyne, because she's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ badass. It's never stated how long monsters live for, just that boss monsters are the only monsters whose souls can exist outside of their bodies, and they don't age after their parents are dead and before they have children. Turtle could be old as hell, who knows. I agree he's not super reliable but that still leaves Asgore and Toriel not recognizing -their adopted child-. Who you say isn't rotting due to determination they didn't have for a few decades, but also is rotting and that's why they don't recognize them?

Chara's determination probably latched onto anything it could in a dormant state, and then only awakened when Frisk got strong enough. Chara SPECIFICALLY STATES they woke up due to Frisk gaining enough strength. None of the other kids got that strong. That's the only way to explain why it took seven humans for Chara to finally wake up. As for the Brock eyes, well, there's a hell of a lot of characters whose eyes appear closed. It's a stylistic thing that's been around for decades. There are a number of other sprites that look that way. It's not 'quite clear.'

tbh this conversation is kind of bothering me. I'm totally open to differing opinions but you are ignoring plot holes and contradicting yourself to support your viewpoint. If you can explain why Chara's body hasn't rotted, why their /parents/ didn't recognize them, why their skin colour is different, why they're wearing different clothes to every time we're certain we see them, hell, even where they got the stick from when there's no trees in sight, I'm all ears.

Yes, there are a lot of arrows pointing towards it being Chara's body, but there are also a lot of arrows pointing towards it being Frisk's. There are, however, inexplicable contradictions if it's Chara's, and none if it's Frisk's.

[GhostyGG]

Shinkada Weisseritter původně napsal:

I agree he's not super reliable but that still leaves Asgore and Toriel not recognizing -their adopted child-. Who you say isn't rotting due to determination they didn't have for a few decades, but also is rotting and that's why they don't recognize them?

Chara's determination probably latched onto anything it could in a dormant state, and then only awakened when Frisk got strong enough. Chara SPECIFICALLY STATES they woke up due to Frisk gaining enough strength. None of the other kids got that strong. That's the only way to explain why it took seven humans for Chara to finally wake up. As for the Brock eyes, well, there's a hell of a lot of characters whose eyes appear closed. It's a stylistic thing that's been around for decades. There are a number of other sprites that look that way. It's not 'quite clear.'

If you can explain why Chara's body hasn't rotted, why their /parents/ didn't recognize them, why their skin colour is different, why they're wearing different clothes to every time we're certain we see them, hell, even where they got the stick from when there's no trees in sight, I'm all ears.

Yes, there are a lot of arrows pointing towards it being Chara's body, but there are also a lot of arrows pointing towards it being Frisk's. There are, however, inexplicable contradictions if it's Chara's, and none if it's Frisk's.

"Your power awakened me from death. My 'human soul.' My 'determination.' They were not mine, but YOURS. At first I was confused.... HP. ATK. DEF. LV. EXP. Everytime a number increases, that's me."

I'd like to think increasing the attack power, defense, and health points are more or less physical traits/aspects. Genocide run is simply making chara more powerful, and it clearly states it awakes in a confused state. The lines written here seem to make it clear that your soul is Fisks and the body is Chara's, which explains why Chara states it was confused at first. It explains why Fisk 'loses control' and shambles forward, hungry for bloodlust.

I've changed my mind on a lot of things, and I'm not going to try to cover 'plot holes' because I only believe my theory works if it is a Genocide run. Genocide also isn't supposed to be the true ending (I think) anyway, and the reveal is more or less for shock value.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, my theory falls apart when applied to a pacifist run. There are plenty of plotholes, and I think the two different runs have two different stories (pacifist ending your body isn't chara's, or genocide ending, it is). I don't know why this is getting you worked up, I only wanted a discussion on the endings. Some speculations and theories here and there, it's nice to think and enjoy thinking :)

[Sharpington]

to clarify Asgore using chara's name in the game over screen--he is talking to the original chara. There is a point somewhere in the pacifist run (I think the vhs tapes in the old lab) where you see the original conversation. When you sleep and when you die, chara's memories drift though your mind. Basically when Frisk is at their weakest, chara almost gets through, but is pushed down as soon as Frisk regains consciousness.

And yes I think it has been hundreds or thousands of years since chara fell. The story of Asriel is "ancient script," long enough that it has passed into half forgotten myth. And their only knowledge of humans is from trash and anime, not personal experience. Only the unaging boss monsters remember.

Also all children wear striped shirts (monster kid that likes Undyne points this out, and Asriel's shirt is also striped). I think Frisk's resemblence to chara is more symbolic than literal, showing that Chara is part of you, and how you both come from the same origins. The first and the last humans, the ones that decide the fate of monsters and humanity. I think Frisk died from the fall--they seem confused that the flowers would be enough to cushion them--and in the moment where Frisk was "reloading" a bit of Chara's soul and determination entered the body at the same time.

[ImpTwins]

Oooh, nice find Sharp. You're right, Asgore does indeed say exactly that in the VHS tapes, as Chara is dying.

I had a new thought on how long it's been since the monsters were sealed. In the intro cutscene, when it's depicting the war between monsters and humans, humans are shown with swords. Given that the tech level seems about the same as the real world (Alphys calls a phone without texting 'ancient' and upgrades it for social network functionality) it's fairly safe to assume the monsters were sealed sometime between the 10th and 14th century (after metalwork technology advanced, before firearm use). Anywhere from 700-1100 years before Chara fell. Guess they managed to scare kids away from the mountain with tales of monsters for a while.

How much longer it took for Frisk to fall after Chara is still a mystery, but I don't think it would've been much longer. There's no evidence of any crazy future tech so I'd say the 'minimum 30 years' is probably about right, somewhere between 2030 and 2050.

I never thought of the possibility of falling being Frisk's first death. It's a cool idea, but I'm going to assume that isn't the case; given that save points are actual canonical in-universe things we probably would've seen a save point if Frisk had one in the beginning.

[Void]

Considering Chara fell in a time where VHS was prevalent, and Frisk in a time where event the monsters had advanced internet capabilities and smart phones, it's safe to say it was a decent amount of time between encounters. Even Alphys comments on how the cell phone you own is "ancient". Considering the time Toriel has spent away from society, it would make sense that her technology also didn't progress.

But yeah, I'm definitely in the camp where Chara begins to possess Frisk, as they seem to no longer be human, and merely exists as a demon consciousness that seeks to destoy all timelines, as referenced by Sans.