So, Toriels Door

[!?!]

What's the deal with that?

Why is it a one-way-only road, why does she ask you not to come back, why does she not even answer calls?
I was sorely disappointed by the lack of action from my favourite goatmom beyond the demo-level.

It even takes getting the best ending possible for her to do what I expected her to do all along, follow you and look after you especially since she knows what the deal with her husband is.

Why's that? What's up with that door?

On top of all that, at the end of the pacifist playthrough that darn thing is just wide open for everyone to walk through in whichever direction they please and it has obviously nothing to do with the barrier which is still up and kicking when sans and papyrus come to visit her in one neutral ending where she gets dethroned.

I kind of don't like the idea that she's just kinda douchy about you leaving, breaking contact and all and that this door being a "one way road" is just a lie to pressure you into staying.
That's not what my toriel would do. ...right?

[Uroboros]

Oh cool, didn't see you had your own thread. Lemme echo my replies over here to you then :

Originally posted by chris:

So... why is toriels mystery "one-way-only" door open for everyone to march through all of a sudden and what exactly made it so impossible to walk through from the other side again?
It has nothing to do with the barrier since that was still up when she reached the palace.

Toriel is a royal monster, she has strong magic, and it's not beyond belief that she would be able to magically barricade or lock it from one side. Consider that in the True Pacifist ending, she runs out to intervene on the Asgore fight. To do this, either Sans or Flowey himself would have had to inform her. Sans talks to her occasionally, and as the judge with mysterious powers that are not elaborated on until the genocide route (that I admittedly haven't played), it's not beyond imagination that he would use that entire "I know more than I let on" shtick to get Toriel to come out. Flowey is also confirmed being able to move freely underground to reach that place, and wanted all the major souls in that room for it's plan. Toriel was distraught at having once again failed to stop a lost human from walking off to their assumed execution. Upon hearing Frisk is still alive, and that they were on the last road to meet Asgore (and that they have been winning over the populace, including the royal guard), that would be ample inspiration for her to simply unlock the door and run off without thinking to shut it behind her. Besides, she knows Frisk would be the seventh soul. Other lost humans are less of a concern at that point.

To elaborate a little It turns into a "Can God create a boulder so heavy that it cannot lift it?" kind of question. Toriel probably did seal the door behind you, so that she can't even hesitate if another human does arrive. The deed would already be done. However upon hearing about your being alive and on the final approach to Asgore, as well as how good you've done, and how even the royal staff are on your side, that's ample reason for her to break out and try to intervene. Like suddenly she believes again that peace is possible, and that you can be saved (whereas before she was convinced your death was certain, as those before you). A sealed door would be no match for the protective wrath of a Goatmom, so blasting it open (especially if she had help from whoever relayed the message) isn't beyond the question.

[Uroboros]

And the other post :

Originally posted by chris:

but thinking about it, that door has definitely nothing to do with the barrier.

Yeah, it was never implied to be anything to do with the barrier. The barrier is a huge encompassing field sort of deal that surrounds the outside of the underground. The ruins are just some crazy-sturdy structures with a door that Toriel sealed, herself. There is another door just like it (known as the 'secret door') in the snow area just beyond, that cause people lots of confusion and grouching because they can't open it.

And the solution is to avoid all the credits in the true ending special thanks section to unlock.

Her caring mother deal is understandably wobbly after all the pain she's gone through, and with the seventh lost human and her own determination being broken, the breakdown is understandable. The monster community seemed to be unanimous in it's agreement with Asgore's 'kill the humans!' plan, so not wanting to mingle with them would be understanable too.

[!?!]

It's not like she has to mingle or even actually leave (also the commitment to that whole "kill all humans" thing is kinda shaky all around), just answer the phone and be a larger part of the actual game.
She dominated the demo but right after that area, gone.

You see, the first thing you learn when playing the full game is, joke's on you, it doesn't actually matter if she lives or dies because during the entirety of the game minus one ending, the game treats her exactly the same way as if she's dead while everyone else who lives sticks with you for the rest of the game.

I can date a skeleton. Why not the firegoat?

[Jacko The Truthteller]

Originally posted by chris:

It's not like she has to mingle or even actually leave (also the commitment to that whole "kill all humans" thing is kinda shaky all around), just answer the phone and be a larger part of the actual game.
She dominated the demo but right after that area, gone.

You see, the first thing you learn when playing the full game is, joke's on you, it doesn't actually matter if she lives or dies because during the entirety of the game minus one ending, the game treats her exactly the same way as if she's dead while everyone else who lives sticks with you for the rest of the game.

I can date a skeleton. Why not the firegoat?

Can you really date a skeleton?

[purpleninja102]

Originally posted by Xostro:

Can you really date a skeleton?

you can date papyrus... or at least im pretty sure you could.

[dat_potatoe]

The reason she doesn't call:
That damn meddling dog.

If you wait for her in the room she asks you to stay in instead of leaving, you get a series of phonecalls telling you to keep waiting, where eventually you can hear her chasing after a dog who stole her phone. Once you leave the room she gets the phone back and calls you, apologizing for not being able to come get you.

Later in the game there is a treasure room in waterfall. If you activate the artifact you'll get an annoying dog in your inventory. If you call her phone in that room the "sound will be coming from your pocket". Yet again the dog decided to run off with her phone.

It's probably also the same dog who stole Papyrus's special attack, his bones, and Undyne's drawer of bones.

I can date a skeleton. Why not the firegoat?

Probably because Papyrus is so extremely naive and innocent he doesn't even fully comprehend what a date is.

[Dread Arkive]

Originally posted by Fusion:

Do you know what weaning is? Thats what Toriel was doing with Frisk. He left the nest, and once you leave the nest you do not go back.

^ This. Also, remember how when you "defeat" her through Mercy she states "I can't even save one child." Well, provided you took her care to heart and followed the path of peace that she was instrumental in fostering in you with her immediate and complete affection, she very well DID save you. It was primarily Toriel's care that starts Frisk down the pacifist route, but she also had to accept her duty as a true mother to allow Frisk to make the choice for himself. Asking him to not return is possibly a way in which she hoped to prevent Frisk from second doubting his actions, while also preventing her from trying to stop him yet again.

[Uroboros]

Teaching a child 'absolute peace' before letting them walk off into a place you know other lost humans have died in doesn't make sense. You're overthinking this a little, though the 'weening' thing is real, just more of a game design thing than anything from Toriel. The goatmother is simply a really kind person, but she also has deep regrets. She, like Asgore, made a critical mistake in trying to do everything alone. Her emotional upheaval prevented her from following to assist you even with the knowledge you were the final soul needed to enact the plan. For all her squishy momness, she's still a fallible human b... uh... monster! Asgore is exactly like her, kindhearted to a fault, but also susceptible to letting his feelings get in the way of his better judgement.

Asgore declared war while mad with grief, but then couldn't take it back without destroying the hopes of his people. Toriel abandoned Asgore and their people in disgust at their sentiments, but couldn't return without feeling she was condoning their bloodlust. At any point, either of them could have shown determination and overcome the growing problem, but they allowed themselves to crumple under their burdens. It's a common theme : The hurt you feel can make you stray from the best path. Monsterkind wanted to believe peace would work and that humans aren't all bad, but letting themselves believe that means they would be wide open to getting hurt bad again. Frisk comes along and shows them all a tiny bit of kindness, and their self-delusion melts away like they were waiting for an excuse to give up on anger. Even with Undyne. Even with Asgore.

In the true ending only two people knew of Toriel's location, so either Sans or Flowey themselves would have had to alert her to Frisk's final walk to meet Asgore, so that she could join the intervention. The fact that she doesn't show up in the neutral end bossfight suggests that she is still in emotional shock and unable to pull herself together, whereas the true ending suggests at Sans' mention of how strong you are / how many friends you've made / how many minds you've changed, she snaps herself out of it and tries to run to your 'rescue'. She's not without fault, and it wouldn't irk me nearly so much but people frame Asgore as a massive irredeemable jerk when he operates in pretty much the same manner. His stronghold is an open-door location he lets people come to him for counselling, he refused to lift a finger when attacked by Undyne and then even trained her, AND he's the underworld's Santa for crying out loud! Haha. One of his responses to being mercied is to commit suicide so you can take his soul and be free, and his dying wish is for you to find a peaceful solution out on the surface to free his people.

Don't mind me. Just baffled at the double standards is all. Heh

[ActuallyZombie]

Asgore is not a good king at all; he, Toriel, and a few others tell you this outright. Asgore was the face of the operation, Toriel was the brains, if not the brawn at times. You know the phrase, "behind every great man was a greater woman"? Sure, goat mom is great, and she loves Frisk and every other child that came her way, but she was also the one that suggested that Asgore should just go find humans to kill, instead of waiting and preying upon children.

Fluffy Goat Mom is a monster like all others, and she isn't afraid to get her hands dirty. She's just not keen on her husband's route about it. It also doesn't help that he's a total softie, and fairly impressionable by others. He's a good guy, no doubt, but he's an awful king. Good people make horrible politicians, and thaaaaaaaat's politics!

[Pizzarugi]

Originally posted by TurtleZombie:

Asgore is not a good king at all; he, Toriel, and a few others tell you this outright. Asgore was the face of the operation, Toriel was the brains, if not the brawn at times. You know the phrase, "behind every great man was a greater woman"? Sure, goat mom is great, and she loves Frisk and every other child that came her way, but she was also the one that suggested that Asgore should just go find humans to kill, instead of waiting and preying upon children.

Fluffy Goat Mom is a monster like all others, and she isn't afraid to get her hands dirty. She's just not keen on her husband's route about it. It also doesn't help that he's a total softie, and fairly impressionable by others. He's a good guy, no doubt, but he's an awful king. Good people make horrible politicians, and thaaaaaaaat's politics!

Funny, I never got that from her while playing the game.

In fact, the reason she fled to the ruins and stayed there was because of her disgust with Asgore's plan to get 7 souls, break the barrier, and destroy humanity. Hell, she even attempted to destroy the door leading out of the ruins, to keep you and future lost humans from leaving and becoming a pawn to Asgore's plans. He did it out of grief for losing both his children: Asriel and the fallen human.

Why would Toriel suddenly leave Asgore if she was originally the one to suggest he do it?

The one who really made that plan in the first place was Chara. In the true lab, video tapes can be watched that it was Chara who told Asriel about breaking the barrier using 7 human souls. Chara conspired with Asriel to poison themself so Asriel can take their soul and leave the barrier. It's clear that Asgore and Toriel became aware of this possible fix after Asriel returned home and died.

[Uroboros]

Originally posted by TurtleZombie:

Asgore is not a good king at all; he, Toriel, and a few others tell you this outright. Asgore was the face of the operation, Toriel was the brains, if not the brawn at times. You know the phrase, "behind every great man was a greater woman"? Sure, goat mom is great, and she loves Frisk and every other child that came her way, but she was also the one that suggested that Asgore should just go find humans to kill, instead of waiting and preying upon children.

Fluffy Goat Mom is a monster like all others, and she isn't afraid to get her hands dirty. She's just not keen on her husband's route about it. It also doesn't help that he's a total softie, and fairly impressionable by others. He's a good guy, no doubt, but he's an awful king. Good people make horrible politicians, and thaaaaaaaat's politics!

It was never confirmed that the other fallen humans were children, was it? Implied but never confirmed (though given the items left behind, it also suggests adults too). It was also never confirmed that Asgore was the one who executed them. There are even things to suggest Frisk is the first he had to fight himself.

Yes, he could have used the soul to walk through the barrier and go murder-frenzy some human souls, or maybe even harvest people who expired of natural causes, but that would fast forward to the race-war that he was trying to avoid. Asgore reconsidered what he said while in the throes of grief, but when the happiness of his entire people hinged upon it, he couldn't just walk out there and be all "Hey guys, sorry we're just gonna sit down here and rot forever again". Instead, he tried to delay it indefinitely and hope no other humans would stray into the underground while the royal scientists toiled at various ways to break the barrier. The genocide route actually reveals that he and the turtle storekeeper discussed the matter, and they agreed together that monsters and humans could never coexist because the humans would always end up killing them out of fear, and so he had no plans to lead everyone to the surface after the barrier incident.

It's also arguable that Toriel really IS afraid to get her hands dirty. As 'the brains' and the queen, when Asgore and their people became enraged and desperate, she didn't seem to stick around to try change hearts and minds, but just fled from the anti-human sentiment. Sure, it also had a dual effect of trying to stop lost humans who fell into the underground from moving further into the caves, but she very much flipped monsterkind off. As I said, she also refused to pursue even in Frisks's case, knowing he was the final child. I see her as an equal counterpart to King Asgore. A massive softy, but prone to doing the wrong thing when under emotional pressure. I imagine they only worked so well as the leading royalty because their relationship allowed them to stay strong with/for each other, but when seperated their weaknesses consumed them. I guess this is why I'm a little bitter about Toriel's reaction to Asgore, and how readily the fanbase ate it up and gave him a cold, judgemental shoulder. To me, it's like finding out that a huge slice of the community randomly decided to hate on Undyne because of her behaviour, when it is easily explained in her will to protect. When you have learned about them through the game and various events, it's hard to really understand how people can't empathise with pretty much every major character.

Argh, jesus. Let this be a lesson kids : Don't discuss things while sleep procrastinating at 7am. This... is a sign I am most definitely a fanboy now. So this is what it's like. x3