[Genocide route plothole?] Were the 6 human souls completely forgotten at the end?

[Fishytza]

Here's something that confuses me. After you defeat Undyne in genocide she says that Alphys has called Asgore and told him to absorb the 6 human souls.

After killing Sans, I expected I was gonna fight "Omega Asgore", IE a rage filled monster king who cannot forgive you for slaughtering his entire kingdom and having already absorbed the souls long before you arrived, "Omega Asgore" would give you quite a frustrating boss battle, but no, nothing.

If anything I expected Flowey to absorb the souls while you curbstomped Asgore (and then possibly curbstomp Omega Flowey), but still nothing.

I know the genocide route is supposed to be as unsatisfying as possible, but this still kinda strikes me as a plothole. Almost like Toby completely forgot about the 6 souls when designing the genocide route. (Maybe I missed something?)

What do you think?

[CyperAleksi]

It's something I haven't really found an answer to, yet. It's not explained at any point of the game that why would Asgore be so clueless to the direness of the situation.

This in my eyes seems to be just about the opposite of the situation in neutral/pacifist.

[Mister_Max]

You do have a point, Alphys did call Asgore and tell him to absorb the souls. But it could be possible that Asgore brushed it off thinking he could easily talk you down, he does say that there's no need to fight when you go meet him in the Genocide Run and cut him off in the middle of his dialogue. He probably didn't realize how much of a threat he was dealing with.

[CyperAleksi]

I suppose one thing to consider is possibly Flowey's influence on the matter. Could be something.

[Fishytza]

@Gamesaddict43

*sigh* You know, as kind hearted as Asgore is, I'd hate to think of him as such a fool. Considering he did become enraged when Asriel died after returning from the human village on the surface, why wouldn't he completely lose his temper when finding out a mass murderer was killing all of his people?

And again, why didn't Flowey try to steal the 6 souls while Asgore was trying to talk the player down? Omega Flowey could have quickly destroyed Agsore's monster soul before Chara could take it and use it to cross the barrier.

[Foolish Bastion]

I have no theory of my own but I am interested in this thread.

[CyperAleksi]

Flowey, I would imagine, knows what is coming and as thus knows that it would be pointless to fight, for he would certainly lose.

I say this, given his knowledge between different playthroughs.

My own thought previously was that maybe (this being maybe) Asgore and Sans both "see" differently. I came to this thought, since Asgore claims he doesn't really know "what type of monster you are", but in neutral/pacifist clearly knows you are a human. So perhaps this is why in Genocide he seems confused/caught off-guard.

Sans clearly refers to you as something that isn't human, way before this.

In Pacifist, you can even tell Asgore that he has killed you before, and he doesn't even react to this that much. Not to mention his ability to destroy the mercy button. Does he have partially what Sans has?



Flowey's act in the end with Asgore was an act of desperation, hoping that you spare him because of it.

[Fishytza]

As an act of desperation, Flowey could have tried anyway.

[Megabyte]

I don't think it matters. On your first Genocide run, your focus is not gathering the souls, but simply destroying everything. So it doesn't really matter if the souls are gathered or not. It only really matters if you decide to get the absolute worst ending, which is doing a pacifist run after doing a genocide run.

[Mister_Max]

Originally posted by EmanEliforp:

*sigh* You know, as kind hearted as Asgore is, I'd hate to think of him as such a fool. Considering he did become enraged when Asriel died after returning from the human village on the surface, why wouldn't he completely lose his temper when finding out a mass murderer was killing all of his people?

And again, why didn't Flowey try to steal the 6 souls while Asgore was trying to talk the player down? Omega Flowey could have quickly destroyed Agsore's monster soul before Chara could take it and use it to cross the barrier.

Now that I think about it, Asgore can be a softie, but he wouldn't be stupid to let a threat like that go by. You are right, it is strange why he didn't absorb the souls when Alphys urged him to do so.

As for the Flowey part, Flowey, for the most part, was on your side during the duration of the run, as he more or less partners up with you to destroy the world. Towards the end of the run, he realizes that he's going to be on the recieving end of Chara's knife at some point too. Considering how Chara, at this point, taking how the game ended after the run into consideration, was more concerned with destorying the world as a whole rather than crossing the barrier. Flowey did go ahead to Asgore to warn him what was coming, but by then it was too late for Asgore to do anything, and Flowey landed a finishing blow on Asgore in an ill fated attempt to redeem himself. With how powerful Chara was at that point, the human souls probably still wouldn't have been enough.

[Megabyte]

Originally posted by Gamesaddict43:

Originally posted by EmanEliforp:

*sigh* You know, as kind hearted as Asgore is, I'd hate to think of him as such a fool. Considering he did become enraged when Asriel died after returning from the human village on the surface, why wouldn't he completely lose his temper when finding out a mass murderer was killing all of his people?

And again, why didn't Flowey try to steal the 6 souls while Asgore was trying to talk the player down? Omega Flowey could have quickly destroyed Agsore's monster soul before Chara could take it and use it to cross the barrier.

Now that I think about it, Asgore can be a softie, but he wouldn't be stupid to let a threat like that go by. You are right, it is strange why he didn't absorb the souls when Alphys urged him to do so.

It's simply because Asgore can't even detect you're human anymore. So he can't sense the danger he's putting himself into. Quite fittingly, he asks: "so, what kind of monster are you?"

[Strider VM]

AFAIK, Flowey is trying to tell Asgore about the whole thing, because of that Asgore is kind of confused. Also due to Flowey's desperation it backstabbed Asgore in it's chaos. But then it still doesn't address where are the six souls in that time.

For me there's a bigger plothole, remember that near the end of Genocide run, Flowey began to tremble (probably due to fear) but then if you restart after that. It's like Flowey forgot all about it and didn't try to change his ways and still tries to persuade you to genocide.

This is kind of bizarre considering Flowey should remember it when you reset.

[Megabyte]

Originally posted by StriderVM:

For me there's a bigger plothole, remember that near the end of Genocide run, Flowey began to tremble (probably due to fear) but then if you restart after that. It's like Flowey forgot all about it and didn't try to change his ways and still tries to persuade you to genocide.

I think this is the biggest plothole. Flowey is supposed to have no emotions, so how can he sense fear? Fear is usually seen as a negative emotion, but it's an emotion, after all.

[AnonTwo]

You kill flowey before the souls can be used, and since you've 'won', there's no use for the souls anymore.

You can't even break the barrier with 'just' the souls, so there's nowhere left to progress.

I think this is the biggest plothole. Flowey is supposed to have no emotions, so how can he sense fear? Fear is usually seen as a negative emotion, but it's an emotion, after all.

He can feel every emotion except for love i think....

edit: also, likely the reason flowey doesn't remember is because unlike usual runs, you destroy the world in genocide. Chara likely invokes the true game reset, which also makes flowy forget the pacifist run.

[Megabyte]

Originally posted by AnonTwo:

You kill flowey before the souls can be used, and since you've 'won', there's no use for the souls anymore.

You can't even break the barrier with 'just' the souls, so there's nowhere left to progress.

Chara can simply go back in time and do the pacifist route. Then (s)he uses the souls to get to the human world and destroy it.

[AnonTwo]

Originally posted by Megabyte:

Originally posted by AnonTwo:

You kill flowey before the souls can be used, and since you've 'won', there's no use for the souls anymore.

You can't even break the barrier with 'just' the souls, so there's nowhere left to progress.

Chara can simply go back in time and do the pacifist route. Then (s)he uses the souls to get to the human world and destroy it.

Chara doesn't keep anything when he resets. There's still no use to the genocide route souls, because he must complete a pacifist run to actually get the souls in a position where the barrier can be broken.