Why I strongly disagree with/hate Undertale.

[Foroneus]

1. I haven't played the game. I almost never get any opportunity to do so.
2. I am NOT hating the game in general. The idea is great, but the execution is what bothers me.

My main issue with Undertale is that it seems to critisize completionists in the bad endings. This makes me very frustrated for a few reasons:

1. Could possibly be insulting some of its own consumer-base.
2. It never lets you speak for yourself.
3. It comes off as elaborate whining to me.

1: Simple. Biting the hand that feeds you.
2: This is more complicated. The game's bad endings focus on how your character is reseting everything to get 100%. However, if you're going to open up this discussion, why let the player speak for themselves? When you fight Sans, allow a voice/text input to have a debate with him. In fact, I have multiple problems with Sans's bad ending fight:

-If you're someone who'll never be happy, why would the player for instance save the good ending for last, so they can escape(if they do, never seen it)? Would they still be this terrible person? Also, one problem I have with completionist runs for games with dialogue choices: the NPCs NEVER compromise. They only want confirmation, agreement. Just like this game, it only wants you to listen, if doesn't even allow you to talk. This strongly annoys me for a game that trys to open up discussion.

3. It makes all of this happy stuff, and it seems throw a fit whenever you do what it doesn't want to do. I'm sorry, but that's what the bad endings look like to me: Preachy whining to the player with great music.

I still think Undertale is good, but they bad endings left me with so much contempt, I can't even look the good endings.

[Laurel the Derg]

Eh. Different strokes for different folks. Just like movies, there are some games that are not interested in asking questions and are there for entertainment. That's OK! Word of advice though, I'd avoid God of War if I were you.

[Enlino]

引用自 TheUltimateFanBoy：

That's fine, but it looks it's the GAME that's not not fine with it. It doesn't seem to realize that what I do doesn't necessarily reflect my stae of mind. Also, typing on a handheld is torture. Ugh...

You keep talking about how the game throws an "unstoppable tirade if you do anything contrary" and act like it lectures you, but... it really doesn't? You're not going to see any of this until the end of the genocide route, and even then most of Sans' dialogue is in character stuff about what's going on.

Honestly, it feels kind of like you're projecting. Like you really hate games lecturing the player, and so when someone told you Undertale does it, you couldn't see anything else. You talk about arguing with Sans, but what would you even disagree with?

[Goldude]

My guess is that he thinks genocide route is the only route in the game, as that's the only one he watched,

[Cocyx The Gay Skeleton]

i think the part where sans talks about how it's easier to hurt others when you distance yourself from your actions struck a nerve with him (even though its objectively true)

[Dinosaur Jerk]

The game presents people you're killing up until Sans as people you're, well, killing. I don't know what you were expecting from the game world, I guess? You're behaving like a monster and slaughtering everything in sight, so they treat you like that. And then, when you get to Sans, you're facing karma; you're facing an incredibly strong guy who wants to stomp a hole in your face for murdering all your friends.

There isn't really anything approaching a "lecture" until near the end, and it's more the game commenting on your behavior and what you've undeniably done. If you disagree with the message? Sure. Don't let it get to you. But you seem to, for whatever reason, let yourself be shaken up by the message in the game. I don't know what that says about your conviction on the subject.

[TheWaddleKnight]

引用自 Certified Roof Korean #84 >KAZE<：

play the game and then review it again.

To be honest, it's past the point of no return. Having watched let's plays of this game essentially ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ any enjoyment one would've gained from playing the game. Had he experienced the events by playing the game without spoiling it, their reaction would've been infinitely more positive~

[Foroneus]

引用自 Cocyx The Gay Skeleton：

i'm sorry, if you think the game punishing your choices is biting the hand that feeds you like the consumer base is some sort of ethereal untouchable entity that should never be critiqued, you are probably a crazy person

this whole angry gamergate consumer garbage is nuts

Stop right there. I never mentioned GG at all in my post, so why did you mention it? Please don't use ad hominem.

[Foroneus]

引用自 Majin：

Okay so i bothered to read you post. And you say the game throws a fit when you do something it doesnt like. I do not agree with that statnment. In fact , 2 of the most challenging boss fights are on the bad ending rout. And.. I liek sans boss fight. Thing is , yeah game doesnt endorce you killing everyone. Why should it , since ya know. Everyone is dead and there is no LoLs to be had that way. But it doesnt stop you from doing it. You have the option. NPCs never compromise true. And why should thay ? How can you write an interesting and engaging story if your charecters have no conflict. In fact , in what game NPCs actually do compromise ?

And about voice input during sans fight - Do you even realise how much effert should be put in the game so that you could realise such a feature ? And , for that matter , even if you could explain everything to sans why would he listen ?

Good point, but it doesn't seem like developer could have an issuew with putting complicated features, such as it knowing what you did a past playthrough. And true, Sans might mnot listen, but in that case, why should bother talking to YOU in the fight.

I like the Sans fight too, but it seems too preachy without letting the other side have any say in it.

[Foroneus]

引用自 Sir Fluffington：

引用自 Certified Roof Korean #84 >KAZE<：

play the game and then review it again.

To be honest, it's past the point of no return. Having watched let's plays of this game essentially ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ any enjoyment one would've gained from playing the game. Had he experienced the events by playing the game without spoiling it, their reaction would've been infinitely more positive~

100% correct. I'm very sure that I would've enjoyed it more if I played it spoiler-free.

[Cocyx The Gay Skeleton]

引用自 TheUltimateFanBoy：

引用自 Cocyx The Gay Skeleton：

i'm sorry, if you think the game punishing your choices is biting the hand that feeds you like the consumer base is some sort of ethereal untouchable entity that should never be critiqued, you are probably a crazy person

this whole angry gamergate consumer garbage is nuts

Stop right there. I never mentioned GG at all in my post, so why did you mention it? Please don't use ad hominem.

i brought it up because it is gamergate behavior to kneejerk react to something that criticizes gamers

[Laurel the Derg]

引用自 TheUltimateFanBoy：

引用自 Majin：

Okay so i bothered to read you post. And you say the game throws a fit when you do something it doesnt like. I do not agree with that statnment. In fact , 2 of the most challenging boss fights are on the bad ending rout. And.. I liek sans boss fight. Thing is , yeah game doesnt endorce you killing everyone. Why should it , since ya know. Everyone is dead and there is no LoLs to be had that way. But it doesnt stop you from doing it. You have the option. NPCs never compromise true. And why should thay ? How can you write an interesting and engaging story if your charecters have no conflict. In fact , in what game NPCs actually do compromise ?

And about voice input during sans fight - Do you even realise how much effert should be put in the game so that you could realise such a feature ? And , for that matter , even if you could explain everything to sans why would he listen ?

Good point, but it doesn't seem like developer could have an issuew with putting complicated features, such as it knowing what you did a past playthrough. And true, Sans might mnot listen, but in that case, why should bother talking to YOU in the fight.

I like the Sans fight too, but it seems too preachy without letting the other side have any say in it.

I think having sans talk about what a monster you are *is* the other side. Playing genocide you already said your piece. "These people aren't important, they are just there for me to grind xp". Yes, the game is contextualizing your choice to kill everything you possibly can as wrong. Importantly though, you actively have to work towards that end. You choose to become a God of Death. You say your bit first through your actions.

Just something to think about.

[Foroneus]

引用自 Cocyx The Gay Skeleton：

引用自 TheUltimateFanBoy：

Stop right there. I never mentioned GG at all in my post, so why did you mention it? Please don't use ad hominem.

i brought it up because it is gamergate behavior to kneejerk react to something that criticizes gamers

I'm not insulting the fans, am I? Am I insulting the developers? No. I'm not really even insulting the game, just really criticising the part that goes off the deep end.

And I thought this was supposed to be asking why we just blindly accept these tropes as another user said? And this comes across as less criticism to me and more whining. Logical and reaosnable whining, but whining noneltheless.

[!?!]

引用自 TheUltimateFanBoy：

And true, Sans might mnot listen, but in that case, why should bother talking to YOU in the fight.

I like the Sans fight too, but it seems too preachy without letting the other side have any say in it.

You have a say.
You can quit.

If you spare sans, he'll even say that if you really are his friend, you won't come back.
If you do come back and attack him at the spare point, he'll comment on that, saying that he supposes you never really were his friend after all then.
He keeps telling you you need to learn when to QUIT.
His "special attack" is trying to bore you so that you quit.
He literally tires himself to absolute exhaustion giving you the fight of your life trying to stop you while begging you to stop doing what you're doing.

You pressing on is a statement.
Don't pretend it isn't in a game where saving and restarting are part of the story.
Did you even read a single thing he actually said?

[Foroneus]

引用自 Laurel the Derg：

引用自 TheUltimateFanBoy：

Good point, but it doesn't seem like developer could have an issuew with putting complicated features, such as it knowing what you did a past playthrough. And true, Sans might mnot listen, but in that case, why should bother talking to YOU in the fight.

I like the Sans fight too, but it seems too preachy without letting the other side have any say in it.

I think having sans talk about what a monster you are *is* the other side. Playing genocide you already said your piece. "These people aren't important, they are just there for me to grind xp". Yes, the game is contextualizing your choice to kill everything you possibly can as wrong. Importantly though, you actively have to work towards that end. You choose to become a God of Death. You say your bit first through your actions.

Just something to think about.

What if your reasoning ISN'T to get XP here? What if it's to see what could've happened instead? What if you do this and it already eats you up inside?

[Cocyx The Gay Skeleton]

引用自 TheUltimateFanBoy：

引用自 Cocyx The Gay Skeleton：

i brought it up because it is gamergate behavior to kneejerk react to something that criticizes gamers

I'm not insulting the fans, am I? Am I insulting the developers? No. I'm not really even insulting the game, just really criticising the part that goes off the deep end.

And I thought this was supposed to be asking why we just blindly accept these tropes as another user said? And this comes across as less criticism to me and more whining. Logical and reaosnable whining, but whining noneltheless.

you're definitely not insulting anyone but you're still doing the aforementioned kneejerk reaction and not giving the game a fair shake because you don't like the idea of a game telling you you're wrong