Undertale

Undertale

Firepanda Oct 2, 2015 @ 4:33am
The game's combat.
This isn't a complaint about it or anything of the sort, but more a little thing that's been bugging me for a while for no really good reason. How on earth is the combat visualised in-universe, if you strike at the physical bodies and the monsters attack your SOUL?

I mean, take Undyne. Is she throwing spears at a little kid who's running around, or are they having a staring contest while she psychically throws spirit spears at his SOUL or something like that? It's a tiny detail that probably isn't very relevant but still.

It bugs meeeeeee.
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LitteralFish Oct 2, 2015 @ 4:38am 
Originally posted by Firepanda:
This isn't a complaint about it or anything of the sort, but more a little thing that's been bugging me for a while for no really good reason. How on earth is the combat visualised in-universe, if you strike at the physical bodies and the monsters attack your SOUL?

I mean, take Undyne. Is she throwing spears at a little kid who's running around, or are they having a staring contest while she psychically throws spirit spears at his SOUL or something like that? It's a tiny detail that probably isn't very relevant but still.

It bugs meeeeeee.


I imagined that the little heart is but a simbol to visualise the combat. While in reality it is the kid himself dodging dem spear , sweats , and Giant flexing arms. Obviously that doesnt really makes sence in some fights. Although imagination helps
Iido Oct 2, 2015 @ 4:41am 
Hard to say, though I imagine the "soul" graphic in-battle represents your character more than anything else, and when you move around it's actually them running about and dodging stuff. I mean, we know Undyne throws spears 'n stuff, since you run from them outside of battle, there's definitely physical combat involved. Plus, other monsters very clearly physically attack you.
!?! Oct 2, 2015 @ 4:57am 
I like to think that the kid just takes all of the spears to the face and the entire "combat" is just about how hurt your feelings get from it.
That's also why ice cream restores "health" and why you can dive face-first into lasers and spears in the overworld but still take no damage if you manage to dodge all the things.
Last edited by !?!; Oct 2, 2015 @ 5:03am
Halfshell Oct 2, 2015 @ 6:00am 
I thought it was just that most attacks were magical attacks. Doesn't the dummy's flavor text basically say you need magic to hurt it's soul, because its body is just a shell. Its like that.

Originally posted by chris:
I like to think that the kid just takes all of the spears to the face and the entire "combat" is just about how hurt your feelings get from getting repeatedly hit in the face.
That's also why ice cream restores "health".
Athough this is a great theory too. Explains Undyne's battle text quite nicely!

*stab* "What the hell are humans made out of?"
*stab* "Anyone else would be dead by now!"
*stab* "Alphys told me humans were determined.."
*stab* "I see now what she meant by that!"
*stab* "But I'm determined too!"
*stab* "Determined to end this right now!"
*stab* "... Right now!""
*stab* "... Right ..."
*stab* "..."
*stab* "... Now!"
*stab* "Haa Haa"
*stab* "Ngyaa!!"
*stab**stab**stab*
"Die already you little brat!"

(Edited to make it more compact)
Last edited by Halfshell; Oct 2, 2015 @ 6:13am
Firepanda Oct 2, 2015 @ 6:03am 
Originally posted by Huoyi:
I thought it was just that most attacks were magical attacks. Doesn't the dummy's flavor text basically say you need magic to hurt it's soul, because its body is just a shell. Its like that.

Originally posted by chris:
I like to think that the kid just takes all of the spears to the face and the entire "combat" is just about how hurt your feelings get from getting repeatedly hit in the face.
That's also why ice cream restores "health".
Athough this is a great theory too. Explains Undyne's battle text quite nicely!

Though using Undyne as the example actually reminds me her battle is the one time you can actually -block- attacks against you and it's the only way to protect yourself instead of floating your SOUL around. Maybe the protagonist is using whatever weapon s/he has to parry thrown magical spears.

...I am now picturing a ballet-dancing protagonist kicking Undyne's spears away and this is both hilarious and awesome to me.
Originally posted by chris:
I like to think that the kid just takes all of the spears to the face and the entire "combat" is just about how hurt your feelings get from it.
That's also why ice cream restores "health" and why you can dive face-first into lasers and spears in the overworld but still take no damage if you manage to dodge all the things.

You know... that would explain why, when you "die," your heart literally breaks...
Last edited by Senator Jim Death; Oct 2, 2015 @ 6:07am
Halfshell Oct 2, 2015 @ 6:09am 
I purposely ate her attacks for that demonstration. Turns out that nice cream is good at healing! You even get a bit at the start where she tries to explain to you to block her attacks. She says she gave you a spear to block with. The she says to face UP. Then she gets mad and talks about teachers. Then I blocked everything because the fifth attack was serious which might end that dailogue tree early, dunno. But that gave me the "What are humans made out of" bit early. I rushed the fight early just to get exact quotes so healing wasn't a problem ^^. Its amusing to think that Frisk is perfectly fine just from reading some nice words..
Firepanda Oct 2, 2015 @ 6:42am 
Originally posted by Senator Jim Death:
Originally posted by chris:
I like to think that the kid just takes all of the spears to the face and the entire "combat" is just about how hurt your feelings get from it.
That's also why ice cream restores "health" and why you can dive face-first into lasers and spears in the overworld but still take no damage if you manage to dodge all the things.

You know... that would explain why, when you "die," your heart literally breaks...

So does that mean Omega Flowey is basically just hurling the equivalent of verbal abuse at you? Though in that case he and others explicitly use the term 'kill'...
!?! Oct 2, 2015 @ 7:26am 
Well you never really "die" though, do you.
It's probably meant to be a catch-all abstraction on purpose to visualize everything on the range of how a conversation goes over singing along with someone to you getting many spears thrown into your face.
Originally posted by Firepanda:
Originally posted by Senator Jim Death:

You know... that would explain why, when you "die," your heart literally breaks...

So does that mean Omega Flowey is basically just hurling the equivalent of verbal abuse at you? Though in that case he and others explicitly use the term 'kill'...

They're trying to kill you, but because even their most powerful attacks are magical, they can't actually physically hurt you. After all, no monster was able to kill even one human in the war. Either they don't realize they can't do it, or they settle for destroying your soul since none of them seem to be able to actually take it.

(Doesn't this seem like the kind of game that would give you the option to give up your soul when you die and see how the monsters get along? And then ruin their happiness by restoring your save?)

I know it sounds kind of silly in retrospect, but I just think it's a cute answer. I mean, when boss monsters die their hearts break as well, although you do explicitly see them turn to dust beforehand. We don't see what happens to our character when we run out of HP, aside from the heart breaking thing, but it's probably not incorrect to assume that they are killed.
Iido Oct 2, 2015 @ 12:51pm 
How do you explain bosses like Asgore then, who have an attack where they swing a giant axe (or was it a large trident? I think it was) at you? The married dogs, too. It seems some monsters do have physical attacks...unless the weapons themselves are actually magical and deal magic damage.
Last edited by Iido; Oct 2, 2015 @ 12:52pm
I think we have to assume that the weapons are also magical if this idea is to work. I'm pretty sure at least Undyne's spear is called magic at some point. The other ones I'm willing to handwave. After all, how does Aaron hurt you by flexing at you? Magic. How does a froggit hurt you by jumping at you? Magic. How does an axe being driven into your heart not kill you outright? Magic.
Firepanda Oct 2, 2015 @ 3:49pm 
Originally posted by Senator Jim Death:
I think we have to assume that the weapons are also magical if this idea is to work. I'm pretty sure at least Undyne's spear is called magic at some point. The other ones I'm willing to handwave. After all, how does Aaron hurt you by flexing at you? Magic. How does a froggit hurt you by jumping at you? Magic. How does an axe being driven into your heart not kill you outright? Magic.

Now this just makes me think that while they strike you physically (with weapons, their body, magical notes, whatever), there is perhaps no physical trauma. Perhaps it passes straight through you physically, but leaves spiritual trauma/emotional damage of some sort behind (probably "I NEARLY DIED OH GOD", heh).
Sharpington Oct 2, 2015 @ 5:37pm 
all the fourth wall breaking is there for a reason though--it's still a game, even in-universe. That's why you can't attack the old turtle, saving/restarting is a thing, etc. Normal npcs also talk about game mechanics. So I think they characters see the exact thing we do. All of that is literally happening.

I know we're used to imagining games as a mirror reality but the whole point of the game is that it's a game. If they experienced reality normally, Flowey would have never needed to reset--he got bored because there was finite play time and the game literally ended.[/spoler]
Halfshell Oct 2, 2015 @ 6:54pm 
This thread got me thinking.. well be for I go any further. Theres Heavy Spoilers.

Anyways. What if all the monsters don't have a "physical", but a magical body so to speak (imagine a Djinn, aka a Genie). Their form is different, hence why they all turn into dust and can melt into Almagates. Theres also some note about the other ghost saying how there wasn't any form that she would like, or any form good enough. Naster Blook can even make himself a Dapper hat. I think theres a good chance that theres two types of monsters. Ghost types that make their own bodies somehow, or possess objects like the dummy.

And humanoid types are the other major type of monster. These still have magic based bodies like the ghost types, but their parents form them before being born. The Dreemur family is evidence to this, as well as Monster Kid because both grow similar to humans. But they can still change their bodies as evidenced by the dog family. Lesser Dog can grow infinitely.

Now ghost types are immune to physical attacks prior to merging with a form, or making their body, but after they fully merge with their form they are vulnerable. The best example is the dummy in a genocide run, his extreme emotion lets him merge thus making him vulnerable. All the weirder monsters are likely ghost types, like Tsunder Plane, the volcano. The skeletons are likely ghost types that merged with the bones of a human. Papyrus either lost his memory, or was too young to remember.

Thus, the monsters couldn't physically attack humans if they wanted to.. or perhaps they don't understand what physical attacks are. Perhaps to them punching naturally turns into a soul attacks. They punch through Frisk into her soul, because thats what is effective on them. Maybe they could physically attack if a human explained to them that they are more vulnerable to them, and taught them how.

Now I said there seem to be two major types, theres likely at least one minor type.. like Temmy who hatch from eggs? ...or possess eggs and then hatch? I don't know.
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Date Posted: Oct 2, 2015 @ 4:33am
Posts: 16