Undertale
20 ENE 2016 a las 21:36
Piano puzzle ruined?!
That whole thing (and of course the reward) was one of my favorite puzzles in a long time because of how it was set up. I thought "for once a puzzle that isn't just 'take this and put it there' or 'do what I say'" reduced to quite simple instructions that anybody could follow in seconds.

Also half the joy (or other emotions, depending who you ask) about that puzzle was that for many people it took a while to get to the reward. That whole thing just falls really flat in comparison now.

I can't be the only one who feels this way... anybody know the reasoning behind the change? Because I just don't understand why you'd do that.

Edit:
If it's for the deaf, why not make it sign language to tell them about another way in instead? That way it would have no impact on the rest of us, and even be a cool way to make it special for them.
Última edición por ; 20 ENE 2016 a las 23:01
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Mostrando 31-45 de 47 comentarios
roymaster45 20 ENE 2016 a las 23:08 
Publicado originalmente por :
Publicado originalmente por roymaster45:

Question - when you say this, are you referring to the original version of the piano puzzle, or the new version? Because I don't think anybody figured out the original in just "a couple seconds".

Anyways, I kind of see where you're coming from, but since we've been talking about deaf people and sign language, I looked up the signs for the 4 cardinal directions... and honestly? It wouldn't be too hard for somebody who's never used sign language to figure out which is which.

I mean, "up" and "down" are literally just pointing up and down with your index finger.
The new version.

Then perhaps the sign language could have instead pointed to a location where they would find the solution, or an alternate way in to the door. There are many creative ways to do it that would've been better. Hell, you could've even involved Gaster, now that he can be found canonically in the game.

Any location that can be found via sign language directions can also be found by people looking around for secrets/easter eggs, and would probably be put on the wiki within a day or two of somebody discovering it. (Heck, people might not even need to look at the wiki - I know I made a habit of exploring every possible room before moving onto and past the next save point.)

An alternate way into the artifact room would be nice, but again, if he doesn't want to add something really conspicuous that non-deaf players would easily notice by wandering around, it would have to be something like a switch hidden on a wall somewhere. That's not something you can easily describe or point to with sign language.

Again, I realize where you're coming from and I agree the way he changed it was a bit much. But purely in the context of helping deaf people solve the puzzle, I just don't think there's an easy way for him to do it without making the alternative method/solution something that everyone else can stumble upon by accident.
Última edición por roymaster45; 20 ENE 2016 a las 23:09
20 ENE 2016 a las 23:10 
Publicado originalmente por roymaster45:
Publicado originalmente por :
It doesn't take more than a couple seconds, and so I'm fully confident that that is how they will solve it.

Question - when you say this, are you referring to the original version of the piano puzzle, or the new version? Because I don't think anybody figured out the original in just "a couple seconds".

Anyways, I kind of see where you're coming from, but since we've been talking about deaf people and sign language, I looked up the signs for the 4 cardinal directions... and honestly? It wouldn't be too hard for somebody who's never used sign language to figure out which is which.

I mean, "up" and "down" are literally just pointing up and down with your index finger.
Also looking it up here gave "up" as 2 fingers up, but down as just one finger up. Left and right involve moving the hand (for direction), and there's still the no-modifiers note to think about.

Anyways like I said even if you couldn't figure out how to do it well with sign language that only gave it to the deaf, you could do it with a different character like Ghaster or you could instead sign to them about a different way in.

Or say you had the statue just sign the way in with his hand(s) - wouldn't stand out nearly as much to the rest of us compared to somebody looking for signing.

Or say (especially since it's nearby) that if you stand there long enough that Ghaster himself shows up and signs the solution, but most people would be too busy freaking out about Ghaster to notice what he was signing unless they were looking for signs. Characters could've hinted at it... or signed about it when speaking such that you'd only pick it up if you tended to look for hand signs.

For example, how awesome would it have been if Sans (while speaking about something else) signed something like "You know that door by the piano? The solution is *signs solution*"

That would've truly added to the game... would make people wonder more about the artifact you can't get, etc etc. Would've been awesome.
20 ENE 2016 a las 23:14 
Publicado originalmente por roymaster45:
Publicado originalmente por :
The new version.

Then perhaps the sign language could have instead pointed to a location where they would find the solution, or an alternate way in to the door. There are many creative ways to do it that would've been better. Hell, you could've even involved Gaster, now that he can be found canonically in the game.

Any location that can be found via sign language directions can also be found by people looking around for secrets/easter eggs, and would probably be put on the wiki within a day or two of somebody discovering it. (Heck, people might not even need to look at the wiki - I know I made a habit of exploring every possible room before moving onto and past the next save point.)

An alternate way into the artifact room would be nice, but again, if he doesn't want to add something really conspicuous that non-deaf players would easily notice by wandering around, it would have to be something like a switch hidden on a wall somewhere. That's not something you can easily describe or point to with sign language.

Again, I realize where you're coming from and I agree the way he changed it was a bit much. But purely in the context of helping deaf people solve the puzzle, I just don't think there's an easy way for him to do it without making the alternative method/solution something that everyone else can stumble upon by accident.
If he signed a sentence repeatedly like this, I doubt non-signing people would pick up on it.

As far as it being on the wiki: anybody who is on the wiki before finishing the game obviously isn't particularly concerned with doing the puzzles themselves with no spoilers. So that's a null point.

But yeah, if a sentence like this was signed I think it'd be fine:

"At the waterfall where rocks fall, let yourself be hit by the first rock, the fifth rock, the third rock, then the fourth rock in that order."
20 ENE 2016 a las 23:17 
Publicado originalmente por :
If he signed a sentence repeatedly like this, I doubt non-signing people would pick up on it.

As far as it being on the wiki: anybody who is on the wiki before finishing the game obviously isn't particularly concerned with doing the puzzles themselves with no spoilers. So that's a null point.

But yeah, if a sentence like this was signed I think it'd be fine:

"At the waterfall where rocks fall, let yourself be hit by the first rock, the fifth rock, the third rock, then the fourth rock in that order."
If that sentence is too complicated, it could be simplified to something like "Rock waterfall, rocks 1, 5, 3, 4"

That's still cryptic enough to be a puzzle but also still easy enough to reasonably figure out what it means with a little messing around.
MrManGuySir 20 ENE 2016 a las 23:28 
I figured out the Easter egg with the piano in waterfall during my genocide run, when I decided to calm myself down with a sample of his theme. And then a hole in the wall opened up, I got a dog, he annoyed me, then absorbed an artifact and ran off.
21 ENE 2016 a las 1:48 
Also, imagine if the roles were switched. For example, imagine a visual puzzle that is very difficult to decifer. Then to make it more accessible to people with visual impairments (whether they range from color blindness to blind-blindness), he added a person just telling you the exact solution.

This not only would cheapen it for those without visual issues, but isn't remotely a replacement for those with them, as it is just telling them the answer as opposed to giving them an appropriate replacement puzzle of similar difficulty or giving them a different way to solve the original puzzle.
Crystalitar 21 ENE 2016 a las 2:10 
Reading all this i think sign language would be a neat idea. Mostly deaf people can read it and will appreciate it, while for normal players have something to decipher.
Cavalado 21 ENE 2016 a las 3:36 
Because tone deaf people should be able to enjoy it too.
Alcoholic Dinosaur 21 ENE 2016 a las 5:12 
Publicado originalmente por Crystalitar - NYEH:
Reading all this i think sign language would be a neat idea. Mostly deaf people can read it and will appreciate it, while for normal players have something to decipher.

I don't think that would solve the problem. Not all hearing impaired people know sign language and not everyone who speaks sign language speaks ASL. And if the words needed to solve the puzzle are so blatantly ovious that everyone understands them, then so would normal people.
boocoky 21 ENE 2016 a las 6:59 
What Toby could have done for deaf people is to make it more of a rhythm solving puzzle instead of a figuring out the melody. You can always repersent rhythm visually and it would still make the puzzle interesting for deaf people, it seems a bit lazy to me to just give them the keys like that. Just my opinion dudeee :^)
Crystalitar 21 ENE 2016 a las 7:12 
Publicado originalmente por xonent:
What Toby could have done for deaf people is to make it more of a rhythm solving puzzle instead of a figuring out the melody. You can always repersent rhythm visually and it would still make the puzzle interesting for deaf people, it seems a bit lazy to me to just give them the keys like that. Just my opinion dudeee :^)

that is quite an interesting take on it
Punsexual 21 ENE 2016 a las 7:32 
Meh,I don't really care.I just googled the answer because I was too lazy to solve it on my own after a while.Glad I did,because I would have probably gotten pissed on what happened next if I spent a lot of time on it.Oh well I guess
21 ENE 2016 a las 9:09 
Publicado originalmente por Morte-TheFreeKill:
Because tone deaf people should be able to enjoy it too.
I'm really not sure what to say about this. This isn't a disability the way being actually deaf is. This is more of a skill. At what point do you have to just say that a puzzle takes some sort of skill? After all, this really is more akin to saying "well people who have trouble with timing should be able to enjoy the game too," even though the game has lots of bullet hells and therefore not much can be done about that.

The only thing I can think of besides saying "Well you could enjoy it vicariously by looking it up or watching somebody else do it" is to say that he could've added something like there is for the perspective puzzle in the ruins. If you fail the perspective puzzle many, many times then the game just straight up tells you the solution. I saw a friend get this because they are really really bad with perspective changes. This was good because it allowed them to move on but not without giving it a good long try first (therefore not ruining it for the rest of us). Perhaps he could have done something like that...



Publicado originalmente por Alcoholic Dinosaur:
Publicado originalmente por Crystalitar - NYEH:
Reading all this i think sign language would be a neat idea. Mostly deaf people can read it and will appreciate it, while for normal players have something to decipher.

I don't think that would solve the problem. Not all hearing impaired people know sign language and not everyone who speaks sign language speaks ASL. And if the words needed to solve the puzzle are so blatantly ovious that everyone understands them, then so would normal people.
He could use different signing languages based on the language they choose for the text. And I'm quite certain something could've been done that was more creative and better than the current "solution." The current version just removes all challenge - whether you can hear or not. There's a difference between removing all challenge, and making the puzzle accessible. Because in reality now NOBODY can access a proper puzzle, because there isn't a proper puzzle anymore - just an answer totally given to you. Once again: removing all challenge for everyone =/= making it accessible.

I mean the thing he did for the colorblind with blue attacks is fine. I guess somebody could complain about the aesthetic or something, but really I doubt anyone would care much - it doesn't change the challenge or gameplay for those of us who are not colorblind. That is actually making it accessible. The equivalent to the piano puzzle "solution" would've been like just making blue attacks never hit - regardless of movement, or just completely taking them out of the game.

There are many, many ways the piano puzzle could've been made accessible without removing the challenge. The method used here was just lazy and really does ruin it. Not just for those who can hear either - deaf people won't exactly be getting a proper puzzle as I said.



Publicado originalmente por Flowey the Flower:
Meh,I don't really care.I just googled the answer because I was too lazy to solve it on my own after a while.Glad I did,because I would have probably gotten pissed on what happened next if I spent a lot of time on it.Oh well I guess
This is actually a really important point: many people who would've had too much trouble with this just looked it up on their own anyways. So certainly there's no reason to do it for people like this guy here. All this solution does is force you to see the equivalent of a googled answer whether you wanted to or not, which isn't fair to those who wanted to do it properly.
meshpet 21 ENE 2016 a las 9:35 
that puzzle was so easy... but w/e. that kinda sux cause if you need to listen to it for a sec to really get it it will just reveal it and i guess it's not a puzzle any more =\
21 ENE 2016 a las 9:38 
Publicado originalmente por meshpet:
that puzzle was so easy... but w/e. that kinda sux cause if you need to listen to it for a sec to really get it it will just reveal it and i guess it's not a puzzle any more =\
Agreed. To be honest I didn't have much trouble with it myself - nor do I think my friends would have much trouble with it. Just the fact that the answer is handed to you so absurdly quickly really ruins it though. And it's the small moments like those that really set the tone for a game and for what somebody will think of it when it is finished.
Última edición por ; 21 ENE 2016 a las 9:38
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Publicado el: 20 ENE 2016 a las 21:36
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