Why I can't save Chara?

[[RU] Yuki Laneige]

Need addon! Make Hard mod ended!

[filler text]

No addons!

[ditt_25]

Depending on your interpretation of
the word "save" and what your personal headcanon is concerning Chara you could argue that you save them simply by
Quitting the game after TP, so long as you never do/did a Geno run .

[Madi]

Originally posted by ditt_25:

Depending on your interpretation of
the word "save" and what your personal headcanon is concerning Chara you could argue that you save them simply by
Quitting the game after TP, so long as you never do/did a Geno run .

That's my same interpretation. Surprised anyone else thinks that way, to be honest.
I see so many "why can't I save Asriel/Chara" people that it's started to get annoying and whiney, because saying that kind of misses the point of the story, in my opinion.
Just to clarify, yes I consider it whiney and annoying but I try not to be rude to people who post these kind of things, I just have no better words for it. (So) Sorry if I come off as rude.

[Cronotekk]

Because she's an ass

[ditt_25]

Um, yeah just saying, this entire post is probably a massive spoiler of True Pacifist ending. Which SHOULD be a given given the name Chara appears in a nonAU sense in the topic title. But just saying.

Originally posted by Clone:

That's my same interpretation. Surprised anyone else thinks that way, to be honest.
I see so many "why can't I save Asriel/Chara" people that it's started to get annoying and whiney, because saying that kind of misses the point of the story, in my opinion.
Just to clarify, yes I consider it whiney and annoying but I try not to be rude to people who post these kind of things, I just have no better words for it. (So) Sorry if I come off as rude.

I think part of the "save Asriel/Chara" spam and lack of accepting their fate, at least in public areas, is since a lot of the sane fans who truly love the game are scared into silence. I do not mean the like the game cause it's funny crowd. They'd be the ones to only go surface level deep into the game and desire a perfect saving. Plus, with the game recently on sale, there's a lot of newcomers, and, well I'll get to newcomers "later."

But the fans who truly love the game? A lot of them have been scared into silence in many public areas. Both by fears of having themselves (or their beloved game) judged harshly by nonplayers solely on the demerits of overzealous fanboys, and also by just how intense and often irrational the hatred for the game within several circles has become.

As for the "Why can't I save Asriel" topics inparticular? ("later" is "now," btw)

I can sympathize with them, to an extent. As I felt that way at first too. But over time, I realised something. And that is, as much as Asriel's fate sucks, that emptiness and helplessness and intense desire to save him? That is an essential reason as to why Undertale has managed to stay so close to my heart, even a half year after I beat it.

With the current ending, Asriel is my #1 Undertale Character ever since Aria R.'s (Dulcet Refrain's) Hope and Dreams lyrical adaptation reminded me that, even six months later, I just can't escape the feels. Before he was unranked due to uncertainty how to treat "you know who" which is now my #3 .

If we were to have receieved a "perfect" happy ending instead, I doubt the game would have stuck with me for so long. And Asriel would likely have ended up as my #5-10 fav Undertale character. Undertale would have been just another RPG I merely liked and eventually blurred together with all the rest.

Trigger Warning: Cheesy closing paragraph incoming. So skip the rest if touchy feely stuff makes you cringe or triggers you
It seems we really can't save this Asriel. But, maybe he can still live on in our hearts (souls?), depending on how we carry about ourselves in real life. There's a lot of Floweys in the outside world. Perhaps we can settle for saving some of them from his fate instead.

[Madi]

Welcome to spoiler central folks. Look away to not be spoiled.

Originally posted by ditt_25:

Um, yeah just saying, this entire post is probably a massive spoiler of True Pacifist ending. Which SHOULD be a given given the name Chara appears in a nonAU sense in the topic title. But just saying.

Originally posted by Clone:

That's my same interpretation. Surprised anyone else thinks that way, to be honest.
I see so many "why can't I save Asriel/Chara" people that it's started to get annoying and whiney, because saying that kind of misses the point of the story, in my opinion.
Just to clarify, yes I consider it whiney and annoying but I try not to be rude to people who post these kind of things, I just have no better words for it. (So) Sorry if I come off as rude.

I think part of the "save Asriel/Chara" spam and lack of accepting their fate, at least in public areas, is since a lot of the sane fans who truly love the game are scared into silence. I do not mean the like the game cause it's funny crowd. They'd be the ones to only go surface level deep into the game and desire a perfect saving. Plus, with the game recently on sale, there's a lot of newcomers, and, well I'll get to newcomers "later."

But the fans who truly love the game? A lot of them have been scared into silence in many public areas. Both by fears of having themselves (or their beloved game) judged harshly by nonplayers solely on the demerits of overzealous fanboys, and also by just how intense and often irrational the hatred for the game within several circles has become.

As for the "Why can't I save Asriel" topics inparticular? ("later" is "now," btw)

I can sympathize with them, to an extent. As I felt that way at first too. But over time, I realised something. And that is, as much as Asriel's fate sucks, that emptiness and helplessness and intense desire to save him? That is an essential reason as to why Undertale has managed to stay so close to my heart, even a half year after I beat it.

With the current ending, Asriel is my #1 Undertale Character ever since Aria R.'s (Dulcet Refrain's) Hope and Dreams lyrical adaptation reminded me that, even six months later, I just can't escape the feels. [spoile] Before he was unranked due to uncertainty how to treat "you know who" which is now my #3 [/spoiler].

If we were to have receieved a "perfect" happy ending instead, I doubt the game would have stuck with me for so long. And Asriel would likely have ended up as my #5-10 fav Undertale character. Undertale would have been just another RPG I merely liked and eventually blurred together with all the rest.

Trigger Warning: Cheesy closing paragraph incoming. So skip the rest if touchy feely stuff makes you cringe or triggers you
It seems we really can't save this Asriel. But, maybe he can still live on in our hearts (souls?), depending on how we carry about ourselves in real life. There's a lot of Floweys in the outside world. Perhaps we can settle for saving some of them from his fate instead.

I can certainly agree with you on that ending, taking the morals from the game, and the lessons Asriel teaches at the end. Although he does mention that not all problems can be fixed with kindness, we should still try.

But the idea that the game carries on in our minds due to the fact that we can't save him is exactly what I dread. Asriel requests one thing of Chara, or us, in that we leave him be, and let Frisk be happy, while we are not. It's that message of self sacrafice that I love. Sure, I'm okay with undertale fan content involving Asriel and what not, but not when it's used as a coping mechanism for what happened, and just explaining it as that, because it devalues the message of sacrafice, when in their reality, no one was in any danger at all and no sacrafice had to be made. And the thought of being unable to save Asriel that births the content used to just forget all that happening and explain it through head canon. I can't control what people do, but I myself don't agree with it. So I somewhat apppreciate that this concept keeps the game sticking around, but not in all cases.

I'm gonna have to do some more reasearch to finish this reply, as in get the message from Asriel and Flowey again from the end of the pacifist run and what not, so this is somewhat unfinished.

But my main idea is, even after all the struggle, Chara, or us, still should not become greedy or anything. As we kind of used Frisk through the whole game. The best thing we can do is think about another person being happy. While Asriel is still in a bit of a crappy case, he accepts it. Now this does fuel the idea of making Asriel happier in my mind too, but the way it's been gone about by many is not right in my mind, essentially it ignores anything Asriel taught and is like "lolnope we can save asriel because magic" even though that's exactly what he asks Frisk to not do.

So far what I have is that, as the player, even if we have committed genocide for ourselves, like me, the player or Chara in game can take the teachings of Asriel in the pacifist route and apply them, which would result in Asriel's idea from the Genocide route, of just living on the surface with his sibling. It wraps things up nicely, and doesn't compromise the hapiness of Frisk or Asgore or Toriel, while still improving Asriel's situation to a state that he himself wished to be in. Again, I need to do more research on this, mostly involving the talk with Asriel in genocide, and with Flowey in pacifist.

[Thundercracker]

both azriel and chara were "evil". chara had a plan to murder, and asreil went along with it, even going so far to assist in chara's suicide. when he finally resisted chara, it was far too late.

not only that, in TP, asriel briefly "kills" every single monster in the underground, and is moments from erasing the entire planet.

it does not matter if you can "redeem" them, their sins have already damned them. didnt you guys notice the point the game makes about actions having consequinces?

[Madi]

Originally posted by Your Best Friend:

both azriel and chara were "evil". chara had a plan to murder, and asreil went along with it, even going so far to assist in chara's suicide. when he finally resisted chara, it was far too late.

not only that, in TP, asriel briefly "kills" every single monster in the underground, and is moments from erasing the entire planet.

it does not matter if you can "redeem" them, their sins have already damned them. didnt you guys notice the point the game makes about actions having consequinces?

Well
Asriel never assisted in Chara's death, he only went with their plan for them to cross the barrier without realizing he would lose them. Even to him, their death seemed like an accident which is why he took their body to the flower bed.

Chara, yes, had plans to kill, but you realize good people can do bad things, and bad people can do good things. Chara had good intentions but Asriel did not want to support their plan and stopped them.

Your point on his fight is untrue, he's never going to erase the world, as Flowey he wishes to become a god, and as Asriel he wishes to reset everything, likely to before he died. And him "killing" everyone isn't exactly true, he takes their SOULs but they are never broken, so they never die, they simply lose their SOULs, which doesn't mean insta death, clearly.

And yes, the message of the game is that actions have their consequences. But from the player point of view, even though Asriel accepts his fate, he doesn't deserve it. It's strange because both the player and Asriel can have a feeling of wanting to take responsibility and help others. I think that's more the intended message than to just let all people take responsibility no matter how cruel, as it is with Asriel and Chara. But it can be taken that way due to the fact that it is impossible to save Asriel, and impossible to save Chara after a genocide run, and in addition Frisk depending on how you look at it, as in if you see Chara talking to Frisk at the end of genocide, or Chara talking to the player. It's up to interpretation as far as I can tell.

[Thundercracker]

Originally posted by Clone:

Well
Asriel never assisted in Chara's death, he only went with their plan for them to cross the barrier without realizing he would lose them. Even to him, their death seemed like an accident which is why he took their body to the flower bed.

you're speculating. this "seemed like an accident" was nowhere in the game, and chara specifically convinced asreil to help them kill themself. asriel never thought it was an accident, if he did, he was the most gullable person ever. asreil was fine with chara's plan until the point where chara was going to obliterate some villagers. THEN he caught a case of morals, and resisted chara.

Originally posted by Clone:

Chara, yes, had plans to kill, but you realize good people can do bad things, and bad people can do good things. Chara had good intentions but Asriel did not want to support their plan and stopped them.

killing is never good. ever. when you decide to kill, you sacrifice all of your goodness. otherwise, the TP route would make an allowance for gaining some EXP, dont you think?

just to hammer it home, GIVING your life to save others is honerable, TAKING a life, even to save millions, makes you a monster.

Originally posted by Clone:

Your point on his fight is untrue, he's never going to erase the world, as Flowey he wishes to become a god, and as Asriel he wishes to reset everything, likely to before he died. And him "killing" everyone isn't exactly true, he takes their SOULs but they are never broken, so they never die, they simply lose their SOULs, which doesn't mean insta death, clearly.

i think you need to reread some dialogs. specifically flowey's monologe at the end of genocide, and asreil's fight dialog. for the latter, specifically "i dont care about erasing this world anymore."

you also need to read some true lab logs, they explain what happens to monster bodies without a soul.

Originally posted by Clone:

And yes, the message of the game is that actions have their consequences. But from the player point of view, even though Asriel accepts his fate, he doesn't deserve it. It's strange because both the player and Asriel can have a feeling of wanting to take responsibility and help others. I think that's more the intended message than to just let all people take responsibility no matter how cruel, as it is with Asriel and Chara. But it can be taken that way due to the fact that it is impossible to save Asriel, and impossible to save Chara after a genocide run, and in addition Frisk depending on how you look at it, as in if you see Chara talking to Frisk at the end of genocide, or Chara talking to the player. It's up to interpretation as far as I can tell.

nobody who murdered got a happy ending. chara is either dead or a demon, asriel is forever stuck as a sociopath, asgore can never be with his wife and son again.

by killing they have earned, and thus deserve their fate.

just because the murderer on death row has turned over a new leaf, it does not clear them of having to pay for the crimes they did commit.

oh, it's also flat out impossible to save chara. you only interact with them in genocide. as for calling out "someone else's" name.... the game didnt say WHO, now did it? it may be open to interpretation, but that does not mean any interpretation is fact. we can only hold up as facts things that are not really open to interpretation.

[Madi]

Originally posted by Your Best Friend:

Originally posted by Clone:

Well
Asriel never assisted in Chara's death, he only went with their plan for them to cross the barrier without realizing he would lose them. Even to him, their death seemed like an accident which is why he took their body to the flower bed.

you're speculating. this "seemed like an accident" was nowhere in the game, and chara specifically convinced asreil to help them kill themself. asriel never thought it was an accident, if he did, he was the most gullable person ever. asreil was fine with chara's plan until the point where chara was going to obliterate some villagers. THEN he caught a case of morals, and resisted chara.

Originally posted by Clone:

Chara, yes, had plans to kill, but you realize good people can do bad things, and bad people can do good things. Chara had good intentions but Asriel did not want to support their plan and stopped them.

killing is never good. ever. when you decide to kill, you sacrifice all of your goodness. otherwise, the TP route would make an allowance for gaining some EXP, dont you think?

just to hammer it home, GIVING your life to save others is honerable, TAKING a life, even to save millions, makes you a monster.

Originally posted by Clone:

Your point on his fight is untrue, he's never going to erase the world, as Flowey he wishes to become a god, and as Asriel he wishes to reset everything, likely to before he died. And him "killing" everyone isn't exactly true, he takes their SOULs but they are never broken, so they never die, they simply lose their SOULs, which doesn't mean insta death, clearly.

i think you need to reread some dialogs. specifically flowey's monologe at the end of genocide, and asreil's fight dialog. for the latter, specifically "i dont care about erasing this world anymore."

you also need to read some true lab logs, they explain what happens to monster bodies without a soul.

Originally posted by Clone:

And yes, the message of the game is that actions have their consequences. But from the player point of view, even though Asriel accepts his fate, he doesn't deserve it. It's strange because both the player and Asriel can have a feeling of wanting to take responsibility and help others. I think that's more the intended message than to just let all people take responsibility no matter how cruel, as it is with Asriel and Chara. But it can be taken that way due to the fact that it is impossible to save Asriel, and impossible to save Chara after a genocide run, and in addition Frisk depending on how you look at it, as in if you see Chara talking to Frisk at the end of genocide, or Chara talking to the player. It's up to interpretation as far as I can tell.

nobody who murdered got a happy ending. chara is either dead or a demon, asriel is forever stuck as a sociopath, asgore can never be with his wife and son again.

by killing they have earned, and thus deserve their fate.

just because the murderer on death row has turned over a new leaf, it does not clear them of having to pay for the crimes they did commit.

oh, it's also flat out impossible to save chara. you only interact with them in genocide. as for calling out "someone else's" name.... the game didnt say WHO, now did it? it may be open to interpretation, but that does not mean any interpretation is fact. we can only hold up as facts things that are not really open to interpretation.

1. Thank you for calling me out on specualting there, I actually realized now that, yeah, Asriel did assist, and know when Chara as sick that it as the plan he had helped with, as far as I can tell.
2. No, killing isn't good. Which is why Asriel stopped Chara. Chara isn't a murderer you realize? The only person they killed was themselves.
3. Yea, Flowey wanted to erase everything because he couldn't feel love, and didn't want to live without it. Asriel didn't because he could feel love, and just wanted to reset.
Also, I'm in the True Lab right now, any specific logs I should read?
4. Chara never killed anyone but themselves. They are not a murderer, and are likely not a demon though they refer to themselves as one (But that's only because you killed their family, and all monsters, twice.)
Asriel, yeah, he's kinda stuck as a flower. But I still count accepting your fate as "being saved" in some way. At least you're okay with it and you know you can't change it.
5. Asgore . . . IS with his wife again. He clearly sees her again. Now, to say they're friends is just speculation, but she made just as many mistakes as Asgore, and from what I know about her I could assume she realizes them at some point, despite telling Asgore they can't be friends. But again, that's speculation, so don't count it for much. My point is they do see eachother again.
6. Again, you've charged one of these people with crimes they never committed (Chara), and yes if you do something you are responsible, as are these characters, but you can still be kind, be treated kindly, and maybe not be reminded of the bad things you did forever. It's what we strive for, to be kind, that's what the game teaches, doesn't it? No matter, what, weather it be a skeleton you're having a date with or a fish who wants you dead more than anything, to have some kind of kindness.
7. Sorry if I've missed any points, I swear there was something in there about how Chara behaves at the end of the genocide route that I wanted to debunk but I can't find it and it might have been in a different thread. I may have to add on to this.
7a. Overall, your point seems to be that people can't be reformed or helped or changed, and even when they ARE they must be constantly judged for and reminded of past actions that were, ironically, the base for their change and reformation to become a better person, so shouldn't you remind them of those things in a positive light?

7b. This one's just a joke for fun. Hey look, 7 points, 7 human SOULs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssnw2GA657s
(again this isn't one of the points, which is why it's a sub point of 7, as is the conclusion [7a.])

[Thundercracker]

2. suicide is still murder, unless under very specific circumstances. things like falling on a grenade to directly save someone's life. medal of honor type stuff. that's GIVING your life. if you want to jump on the speculation train, you might assume chara did not GIVE their soul up to save the monsters, they TOOK control of asriel. by the by, if your plan to help someone "incidentally" involves gaining the power of a god, i personally strongly doubt your selflessness.

3. which logically means that up until the point where asriel could feel again, he wanted to erase the world. genocide ending. blackness. the wind howls.

as for true lab:

ENTRY NUMBER 3: But extracting a SOUL from a living monster would require incredible power... Besides being impractical, doing so would instantly destroy the SOUL's host. And, unlike the persistent SOULs of humans... The SOULs of most monsters disappear immediately upon death. If only I could make a monster's SOUL last...

the reason everyone was restored in TP is because asriel used those godlike powers, most likely.

4. again, i put forward that killing themself counted as a murder. my own speculation is that as asriel, their best friend, mentions that chara hated humanity and "wasent the best person", and also seeing how chara had a history of manipulating asriel, that chara comitted suicide not to help the monsters, but to gain the powers of a god in order to obliterate humanity.

5. asgore is hanging around toriel, yes..... but she's not his wife anymore. the only time she is ever referred to as a dreamurr is by herself, in TP epiloge, as a joke. and then she tells you never to call her that. she has not been asgore's wife for possibly several lifetimes, as only gerson even knows who she is. could be wrong. certainly none of the main cast know her, aside from asgore. my point still stands that asgore, a murderer, did not get his happy ending.

6. see 4 and 2. also: asriel, in the ruins: "dont kill, and dont get killed". be kind, yes, but dont kill and dont get killed. furthermore, we're talking in the context of the game's universe's moral system. you cant get a TP ending if you have even 1 EXP. you pay for your sins.

7. it was probably the whole "chara is talking to your character" vs " chara is talking to you, the player" im going to weigh in on the side of the character. asking the player to "sell their soul" is asking to be mobbed by religious fundamentalists, and i sincerely doubt that is what toby had in mind.

[Madi]

Originally posted by Your Best Friend:

2. suicide is still murder, unless under very specific circumstances. things like falling on a grenade to directly save someone's life. medal of honor type stuff. that's GIVING your life. if you want to jump on the speculation train, you might assume chara did not GIVE their soul up to save the monsters, they TOOK control of asriel. by the by, if your plan to help someone "incidentally" involves gaining the power of a god, i personally strongly doubt your selflessness.

3. which logically means that up until the point where asriel could feel again, he wanted to erase the world. genocide ending. blackness. the wind howls.

as for true lab:

ENTRY NUMBER 3: But extracting a SOUL from a living monster would require incredible power... Besides being impractical, doing so would instantly destroy the SOUL's host. And, unlike the persistent SOULs of humans... The SOULs of most monsters disappear immediately upon death. If only I could make a monster's SOUL last...

the reason everyone was restored in TP is because asriel used those godlike powers, most likely.

4. again, i put forward that killing themself counted as a murder. my own speculation is that as asriel, their best friend, mentions that chara hated humanity and "wasent the best person", and also seeing how chara had a history of manipulating asriel, that chara comitted suicide not to help the monsters, but to gain the powers of a god in order to obliterate humanity.

5. asgore is hanging around toriel, yes..... but she's not his wife anymore. the only time she is ever referred to as a dreamurr is by herself, in TP epiloge, as a joke. and then she tells you never to call her that. she has not been asgore's wife for possibly several lifetimes, as only gerson even knows who she is. could be wrong. certainly none of the main cast know her, aside from asgore. my point still stands that asgore, a murderer, did not get his happy ending.

6. see 4 and 2. also: asriel, in the ruins: "dont kill, and dont get killed". be kind, yes, but dont kill and dont get killed. furthermore, we're talking in the context of the game's universe's moral system. you cant get a TP ending if you have even 1 EXP. you pay for your sins.

7. it was probably the whole "chara is talking to your character" vs " chara is talking to you, the player" im going to weigh in on the side of the character. asking the player to "sell their soul" is asking to be mobbed by religious fundamentalists, and i sincerely doubt that is what toby had in mind.

I'm not even sure how to respond to this anymore. When you start saying suicide is homicide besides certain situations, you're just making things up now. I think you're a troll, since a lot of your arguments are self defeating, you seem to be ignoring my point, you make things up as you go, like calling me out for speculation then use it in your argument, and I just can't any more. I think the tipping point as in the discussion on chara being a villain where you don't belive player actions have importance or consequences in Undertale, which is literally just ignoring and escaping from one of my points, I'd assume because you can't contest it.

I'm done here.

[Chara the Explorer]

Originally posted by Clone:

Originally posted by ditt_25:

Depending on your interpretation of
the word "save" and what your personal headcanon is concerning Chara you could argue that you save them simply by
Quitting the game after TP, so long as you never do/did a Geno run .

That's my same interpretation. Surprised anyone else thinks that way, to be honest.
I see so many "why can't I save Asriel/Chara" people that it's started to get annoying and whiney, because saying that kind of misses the point of the story, in my opinion.
Just to clarify, yes I consider it whiney and annoying but I try not to be rude to people who post these kind of things, I just have no better words for it. (So) Sorry if I come off as rude.

I can understand wanting to save Asriel. It's debatable whether it's an appropriate bitter-sweet ending, or if it's too cruel for the poor kid.

But Chara? Pfft. S/he don't need saving. They're either inside Frisk, or frolicking in the endless void.

[Something Hank]

Please god no. Just let the game have its bittersweet bits. Even in a game where the universe is all about do good, respect and understand people and make friends through hardships... just let the lore have genuinely EVIL forces. Not 'Oh Chara, you mass-murdering homicidal psychopathic demon with no remorse for what you are doing? You're actually a victim, come here with my buddies!' Just let the lore have its dark pieces that we just can't fix. Please.

[Zeox]

You can, doing Genocide... and look how awful everything ends