Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
Discussions Rules and Guidelines
Report this post
well the creator did it wrong , I ain't attacking the monsters because I'm racist I'm attacking them because they literally want to kill me and take my soul
The game doesn't punish you for defending yourself in any way. In fact it's typically much easier to just kill things.
The characters judge you for your actions. That's it, and you're free to agree or disagree, and justify your actions however you want. That's hardly considered "punishment" unless you can't stand people you like having a negative opinion of you. I mean you aren't entitled to have everyone automatically like you, neither in games nor in life.
"They judge me when I did nothing wrong!" That's your opinion, and that's also just life in general dude. Most of the time judgements aren't fair, when we judge others it's almost always prone to heavy bias and not seeing the whole picture. Personally though, I think they are largely fair judgements. Killing people who pose little to no threat to you, even when they could easily be subdued, is not self defense. It's murder.
Um, yes, obviously.
They don't. This game just happens to. LISA pretty much doesn't.
Implying mutual exclusivity.
1. If it is, then explain exactly what it is trying to teach us and why it's not just a game meant for entertainment.
2. Then why does everyone act like every game needs a moral lesson?
3. Elaborate.
A game can both be entertaining AND make us think / teach us things. They aren't mutually exclusive concepts. The messages are pretty obvious: killing is bad, mercy and forgiveness are good, friendship is good, game characters in this world aren't just expendable sources of income and experience.
2. They don't?
"little to no threat"
"fish lady with a suit of armor and magic spears"
"A goat who uses fire magic , and a huge trident"
"A spider who sends a giant spider muffin after you"
"little to no threat"
This is exactly what I was trying to say, but everyone felt the need to disagree because apparently murder becomes completely fine and okay as long as the other person hates you.
And yet a very young child can dodge their attacks and do massive damage to them with a stick. Their imposing appearance doesn't exactly match their actual power.
Also forgetting to mention all the small non-boss monsters that you could probably stomp to death effortlessly.
You're never judged for fighting Asgore by anyone. Even Undyne concedes that he had to die.
You can sit here and nitpick about the game all night. Yes, the message could've been executed better. Doesn't mean the message behind the game or what it tries to accomplish are bad.
Edit:
Just remembered some things. About subduing monsters...you actually can in this game.
Little known fact, if you lower their health enough they won't want to fight anymore and can be spared that way. So what justification is there in killing them at that point?
Also worth considering how easy it is to talk most of them out of fighting anyways, requiring only two turns. Clearly they don't actually want to fight.
So, you are killing them because THEY are racist (or whatever -ist would be the right term)? Really dude?
As for your main post, paragraph by paragraph
1]Full on genocide run warrants punishment. While calling a neutral blind first run as "punishing you" is bit of a Flowey statement to make. TECHNICALLY true, but intentionally trying to get people to misinterpret/overreact. The first run is intended to be blind neutral and the later run, when you show you "learned" your "lesson," is the reward of pacifist route. Whose lesson is then partially debunked in the part I refer to in the 8-9 spoiler tag
Also, even if you don't consider pacifist the replay bonus, but rather the base state, there's like five hints of don't kill by the time you finish Snowdin ingame. That's not counting steam description or MULTIPLE demo manual hints. Training dummy scene, first froggit NPC, Basement scene including too bad you can't change fate hinting you should reset, upbeat music and cutre dogs for Snowdin, and Papyrus boss fight where he is FORCED to say he spares you BEFORE you can kill can. And impleid via the whole storybook of moving to home in Toriel's due to being SCARED OF HUMANS.
2]Actually, combining a few hints, many of the nonboss characters may not even be aware they are killing you. Snowdin Library suggests monster bullet patterns aren't normally deadly to monsters and MANY monsters (outside of Gerson, pretty much any nonboss that ISN'T in the Royal Guard) don't even recognise you as a human until epilogue. And some don't even by then.
3-4]Some people enjoy motherly characters. Or furries. Or both. And she did save you from Flowey. She was also basically the face of the game for the 2+ years prior to game release due to the demo. And probably the best choice for a face of the game if you want to emphasize something OTHER than "just" the humor without spoiling too much (but let's face it, at this point the public face has been changed to all Sans all the time due to fanbase).
4]Yeah, all the goats are pretty messed up psychologicially by the time the game starts. Of course, victims of crazy serial killers generally still have a reasonable chance to get back to their real family were the serial killer not to intervene.
5]Or skip the fight via Spider cider/donuts. And that character was by one of the kickstarter backers IIRC. But like I said in the latter half of 1, pacifist is the replay bonus, not the default first run state. Despite how much fanbase has warped player's first run expectations and chastise blind neutral runs.
In fact, in some ways you can argue she is the first real moral test of if you should stick to pacifism on a first run. As every major fight prior had a reasobaly defensable, albiet perhaps misguided, rational for opposing you. Undyne was the first one who actively WANTS to MURDER you, but that's from wanting to free her friends and blind loyalty to Asgore. Kindness, loneliness, ignorance? Defensable, maybe not right but defsneable. But Muffet? She's greed. She wants the money.
6]
a]Toriel (wants to not kill you and gets a special anaimation of shock if you DO die)
b]Papyrus (he is MECHANICALLY incapable of killing you AND you are FORCED to have him offer you mercy the turn you "could" kill him)
c]Jerry (mechanically cannot kill you),
d] Asgore (he WANTS you to KILL HIM so YOU CAN ESCAPE ,
e]and possibly Monster Kid, although by that point you DESERVE to be hunted down
I will say you should get guilt tripped over. Even if most of them do have legit rationalizations as to why you may kill them on a first run.
7]See 2, except for Royal Guard and MTT. Also most murderers don't actually attempt to 1v1 or even 3v1 someone who, beyond being able to reset if they die so they aren't ever REALLY in danger (the human having the ability to save/load is a canon plot point in this game, not just a gameplay mechanic like most games) . who also happens to be single handidly as strong as their entire civilzation combined.
8-9]The game actually does agree with you on that point. if you do the revisit of first room during epilogue BEFORE beginning the end credits for the first time that run .
TLDR version
It's very possible most monsters (outside of Gerson, Alphys, Muffet, all "main" bosses, and the Snowdin Dogs) don't even recognize that you are a human/that they are killing you.
You are FAR stronger than the monsters. And save/reload is actually a canon plot point, so you are essentially immortal.
Game itself actually says the let everyone try to kill you philosphy isn't perfect either.
Yes and no. There's not really any real punishments for killing anyone. Flowey chastises you (but then again he's a prick who's there to wind you up no matter what), and you're not obligated to care about the effects your actions have on the other characters. That and (as has been said) killing in self defense is not exactly justified in situations where other avenues are viable (such as running. You know, the tactic that's almost always overlooked in RPGs), ESPECIALLY when flavour text such as "froggit doesn't know why he's here" and "Whimsum whimpers apologetically" and, well, the SPARE function's EXISTANCE more than heavily suggests that things are SLIGHTLY more complicated than "everyone wants to kill you".
Then there's the whole Meta-level bit where the game questions whether you, the player, are REALLY in any danger, plus a certain someone warns you that ultra-pacifism isn't neccesarily a good thing ... but let's not get ahead of ourselves.
What? Why not? If you can't find the parents, and you're not exactly in a situation where you can contact the authorities, what's wrong with taking a defenseless child under your wing?
I will agree she's overly doting, plus many Youtubers have joked about her suddenly turning into a serial killer (the game DOES hint at this though it turns out to be nothing), but still.
It's your choice, dude. Despite what many people screaming "OMFG you ruined the Pacifist run!" many make you think, you're not obligated to spare anyone. You do you.
Look, you're not the first person to do the whole "but it's self defense" dance and you won't be the last, and while I respect that... pretty ALL of you guys seem to miss the fact that this game isn't one of those that take concepts such as "saving" and "reloading" for granted. And (as I said before) that's ignoring all the subtle hints everywhere that there's more going underneath the surface than "everyone wants you dead".
Well, i mean, in genocide run you basiclly ARE the bad guy ...so...well...at least no one will try to pick a fight with you...so...you've got that going for you.