Underfail

[REiuMi]

[[This is going to be 1/3, get ready for a lot of reading and a long ride for this one, folks!]]
[[[Edit: This topic was originally going to be named this (Underfail) instead of Undertale Surfaced, but I figured that it was too much. Now I just don't care lol]]]

Plot holes and loop holes. So many plot and loop holes.Let's get this straight, I'm not going to praise this game, or try to stay on anyone’s good side. Don't expect me to constantly say this is a good game with good story, because really, it's not as good as it was blown up to be. I don't keep up with any theories or anything like that, could care less. I’m just going to throw out there what I've and my partner have thought up over the past (now almost) year and if anyone has ever pointed out or said the same as I have, then cool.

Let's start with the barrier. We're going to be on this topic for a good while, just a heads up. As we all know the barrier is a defense mechanism against the monsters. In which 7 mages used their power to seal them up in the underground. The beginning shows the underground and even explains that the ground is a place in the mountains. Mountains, geological sense, have a lot of caves and caverns. The village the mages were in were most likely facing one cavern and/or cave entrance. Which means the monsters can dig in just about any direction and be okay with getting out of their current situation. Before you say they don't have that kind of technology or resources, then I'll call your bluff on saying, if a scientist can build a fame hungry robot, then why not just a normal drill? Hm.

A human and a monsters soul is required to open the barrier. However, monsters soul doesn't last very long, as we know they die and turn into dust and their soul "disappears." A human, given they have a soul strong enough to pass the barrier, can't get out without a monsters soul. If a monsters soul disappears before the human would acquire it (yes this happens with "boss monsters" as well, the lore states that the soul is still too weak.) How are the humans supposed to get out? It’s a harsh rule and makes no sense to implement it.

Taking a break from that topic to talk about our hero, Frisk. The main story continues on as our hero (or villain, depending on the run you want to do.) falls down into. Questions on why they was climbing the mountain is one thing, but another question should be being asked is; how did they survive? As we all know falling at a great height, like one such as a mountain or cliff, can lead into a serious injury or worse, death. Yet Frisk was perfectly fine a got up no problem, why? Because they landed on flowers? In real life, flowers do not break your fall what-so-ever, but I guess logic doesn't apply here it seems. Which makes me think the hole they fell down into wasn't very high, but the cut scene at the beginning proves me wrong on this thought and shows the human falling down a very LARGE and very ELONGATED hole. Another question is, since the barrier seems to be only in one place, doesn't that mean they can just climb out? I heard nothing of it covering the ENTIRE mountain.

[REiuMi]

[2/3]
Everyone loves a certain character, whether it's Sans, Alphys, Etcetera. Let’s point them out, shall we? Let's starts with the not so bad standing character;

Papyrus, he’s an innocent character, none the less. Just very egotistic. He's excited to actually have actually captured and see a human for the first time. Given he saw it as a way to get famous he soon realized having another friend, person or monster, he could trust was better than being in the royal guard.

Undyne. Undyne, best be her temper, is actually a not so bad character. She's loud and willing to do anything for the freedom of the underground. She's prove to be more of a hero then a warrior. She can work on her hot-headedness, however.

Flowey. Flowey' views on the world is basically plain and simple, and the most real view you could think of. Kill or be killed. Of course, that’s not our views as the player, but in the world of Undertale, that is basically what the nitty-gritty is.

Muffet, a con-artist.

Asgore. Cup of tea anyone? Asgore is the king of the underground, why the underground would need a king is beyond me, but I'll over look that. Asgores fight was basically a cry for, most likely, suicide by human. While he wanted to save and get everyone out of the underground, he took up the only plan he could think of and went with it. Which was kill and gather. He "collected" 6 human souls and needed one more to break the barrier. Frisk seemed to be a great candidate for that. Asgore could've came up with more solution if he were to use his brain. He had tunnel vision and depression, no doubt about it. I mean, you lose two kids and your wife? That could do a lot to you, don't you think? Doesn't matter, you have responsibilities you taken up for.

Toriel, goat mom! Ah yes, almost everyone’s favorite. She walked you through the tutorial, and cared for you and took you into her home. Only knowing you for less than 20 minutes. She also tried to force you to stay with her and claimed you couldn't survive on your own in the underground and purposely fought you in a battle claiming you need to prove yourself could to pass her. She lost her kids, I get it. Replacing them with a kid you barely know is not the answer. Not to mention once you do leave her home and get past her, she never calls you. Or picks up the phone to check up on you to see if you were okay. Some guardian you are.

Sans. Now Sans, given he's a pretty punny character, I will admit I like his humor. However humor doesn't getcha anywhere. Sans morals are basically if you kill anything for any reason he WILL confront you about it. Whether it was out of defense or not you're in the wrong to him. He's not as lazy of a character as he seems, since he’s basically on top of you the whole game "checking in" or being at a certain area a certain time out of "coincidence". No, he's plan stalking you and judging your every move. He lazy on the sense that he still hasn't paid his tab yet.

Mettaton. The fabulous human killer robot that has more amazing legs then you, folks. A programmed machine made by the scientist, Alpyhs. Mattaton was made mostly to gain fame, no matter how you look at it. I wonder how Mettaton got so popular on the television when there was no satellite. Cables? I also saw no televisions in any of the monsters homes or areas until Mettaton became a thing. Weird.

Alpyhs, the weeaboo with a sad story. Alphys is one of the worst characters, her morals were driven on being famous, and being seen as a hero to others. Her confession and her apology wasn't the best, but I'm sure most people over looked it and forgave her. I'll forgive her for being fame hungry. However, she tried to kill us, multiple times. Mettaton was programmed to lead the character into dangerous traps that Alpyhs set up and made sure she knew what to do and how to it, all while pretending to not know a damn thing. Let’s tackle something else about our scientist. She’s not very smart. Alphys could build a killer robot to have some kind of emotion to it and still be likeable, she has a lab and have done secret experiments in it, and dare we mention that. She could've done a lot more things to benefit everyone, like, helping Asgore find a way out of the underground rather than killing humans, research. Surely that would've gotten her more publicity, but no, she didn't think of doing anything of the sort, for the many years she probably has been down there for.

We're not going to talk about Temmie or Nabstablook, ones an acid taker and the other is a depressed Tumblr user.

[REiuMi]

[3/3]
Moving on to the next topic. Asriel, Flowey, and Chara. Now, I personally feel Asriel shouldn’t be in the story after it is explained he died. It makes no sense for him to be here mostly for the fact that monsters do not have souls. The game contradicts its own rules and lore. At the end of the pacifist run, you can go to the very beginning, where you started out from, and see Asriel standing there, perfectly fine in his own "form". How? Keep in mind a monsters souls are very weak, and once they take their final breath they turn into dust and their soul is gone forever. Asriel died years ago along with another human, Chara. - ”A monster's soul composes their entire body. Therefore, the soul is weak. Since the soul is what makes the monster's body, the moment the monster breathes his last breath, his soul disappears, and his body turns into dust. The only monsters who have a soul that persists after death are called "Boss Monsters", and, even then, the monster's soul does not linger for very long." - Just in case you thought I was making it up, there’s proof of lore right there for you. Ahem, Asriel shouldn't have been reincarnated at all since the monsters soul is "weak", dust from the monster do not stay for long either, and I'm fairly sure dust cannot hold any part of a monsters soul or being inside it. Another thing to take note on is that, if a monsters soul is powerful enough to animate a body, why is considered weak? Asriel was said to be Flowey reincarnated, but I still feel he shouldn't have been there at all. Much less Chara shouldn't have been "controlling" Flowey either. Since Asriel had already died and his soul disappeared, Flowey wouldn't have any soul to begin with and in order to take over a monsters body they would have to have the same determination as the humans’ soul, but to have determination you have to have some kind of soul right? Flowey can't and don't have a soul or have the same determination as Chara, because of the lack of the soul feature. So, really, that leaves Chara and Flowey out of the picture.

Flowey. Oh boy, I love picking at this one. I really do. Let's get right down into it more. Aside from Flowey not belonging here, I’d say he contradicts himself. - "He brought himself to the brink of death, when he realized he didn't have a soul. So what would happen to him if he died? A burning feeling grew inside of him, and he decided that he didn't want to die. This will to live sparked the power of determination within him, and it allowed him to come back to life at a "save point"." - Flowey has said that he doesn't feel any emotion for anything, correct? Well then he wouldn't be afraid of dying, he wouldn't be afraid of anything. -"His curiosity became his downfall. After being so good, he wondered "What would happen if I did badly? What would happen if I killed someone?" He didn't like these thoughts, but he acted on them anyways, because he HAD to know what would happen. He soon realized that this feeling of power, this feeling of ending another life, was...liberating. It felt much more satisfying for Flowey to murder someone than to help them out with their trivial needs." - This basically tells me, that Flowey, basically has the power of the player as he; "loaded save files and played over and over again getting different endings." If he could do that, then why bother getting the human souls to do whatever you want, when you already did that and got bored of it? I know that it could've been Chara who wanted the souls, but, Flowey seemed to have all control over himself both genocide and pacifist run. It seems to me Chara was just thrown in there for dramatic effect.

Ahem, how is there a regular, plain dog, in the undergrounds? I’m sure all of you know about the infamous annoying dog that seems to steal your things and run off, coincidentally being in a certain place as you. This dog isn't a monster, it’s a down right, plain dog. It barks, sleeps and doesn't attack you at all, all it does is show up at random time and places, nothing special or monster like there. It's stated that the barrier has effects on monsters and humans, and yet never said anything about animals. The gap, the one that the fallen human(s) fell from, could allow sun and animals through it. Which is probably why butterflies and the dog could be there. Let's theorize a bit, if an animal is in the underground this contradicts with the entire soul theory, it means that a thing can pass, not from its soul but from what its body is composed of. Let me break it down, a human, is mostly water correct? Dogs are mammals correct? Humans and dogs, being mammals, are mostly composed of water. Therefore having a solid compact material to break through the barrier. So in reality it's not the souls that matter, it's the substance and monsters can't pass through because the barrier is mostly made from magic, as they are also are made of magic.

Let's get into geological stuff. Yay, science! Now, as I've said before, the undergrounds are basically caves of a mountain, mountains are sometimes known to have more then one caves, or entrances to them. The barrier was never said to cover the entire mountain, which means that the monsters’ could've easily dug, or climbed out of any hole or spot they found. Another thing, it has a stable water supply and long rivers inside of it, which means the mountain must be near a sea and it's not as small as it seems. This could also be another way to escape, since rivers flow however the wind is blowing, follow them upstream and you're out. It seems to me that the underground isn't much of a prison and that monster aren't really as trapped as they thought to be. They just want to find a way out without any other goals then revenge. Besides the water, the food supply. Let's say there really is no way for anything that goes in to come out, how are the monster getting supplies for various foods other than caves dweller and fungus? They clearly have domestic animals to be having a burger joint. Unless, they eat themselves. It would make sense considering they're stuck underground, but it also wouldn't make sense because once a monster is dead, thy turn into dust. Mm dusty burgers. Nope, so how did they get the meat and/or crops? Even if they had seeds, they have no sunlight to sustain the plants or trees. Alpyhs being a scientist can't make biological gardens either, you could say she could, but she would have to start from basically scratch to make it happen. Not to mention her labs, both fake and real, showed no evidence of her working on plant life or materials of any kind and no files are found on biological plant growth either.

Peaceful. The underground at most times seems to have created and sustained life, somehow. They all seem like nice people, right? They got furniture and food and water, clothes on their backs, cafes, hotels, and inns. Seems to me they're doing pretty great, even got the internet and television! So why do they want out so badly? To see the sun, the moon, the stars? To be accepted into humans’ society? With all these nice things, why did anyone want to leave? Asgore didn't need a royal guard, and yet he had one, for protection from nothing, and to search for humans that came into the underground, to end them and take their souls. That’s it. Also, before ending this topic, if Asgore truly didn't want to hurt anyone, why didn't he just wait until the human grew old and died of natural causes?

The endings of ending. Now we all know the normal and pacifist run both have the same ending. The monsters and the human, Frisk. All go out of the underground and see the outside world for the first time. Great, heartwarming. However, the ending wouldn't have been as happy as it was if the aftermath was thought out more. The humans didn't like the monsters, plain and simple, their history was that they sealed them away forever, never to be seen or worried about again. So at the end you would expect the monster to stay out of humans’ way and not join into their society, right? Well that isn't possible, and that wasn't what happened. Papyrus at the end is seen to be driving a car, how he learned to drive one as fast as he did is beyond me. Mettaton and Alpyhs quickly became popular among the humans of the world. You would think with all the history behind both of these parties, the humans wouldn't hesitate to kill any monster that breathed, right? Or are they just not afraid of them anymore all of a sudden and accepted them? Nope, not likely. Pacifist route seems to be the only real ending. The other two "endings" just seem to be really bad lessons, where you don’t learn anything from them. Other than that Chara is a ♥♥♥♥.

I’m done talking about this for now, I started writing all this down hours ago, believe or not. Special thanks to my boo, Zodnocroy, for helping me research and such.

[Zapharon☦]

Believe it or not, boo is another word for poop. Thanks for calling me your mound of poop sweetie.

[Weeblebeeb]

nice b8 m8, do you expect that this is the first time i've seen something like this?

[Zapharon☦]

Originally posted by Ultimate Weeaboo Trash™:

nice b8 m8, do you expect that this is the first time i've seen something like this?

nice b8 m8 ;)

[Strider VM]

Holy macaroni you are thinking of this game too much...... I mean this is a game in which a trait can be used to travel back in time and revive yourself from death dude........

OK, I'll try to read some and have more discussion! =)

Originally posted by Imparell:

Asriel

To clarify it was not said that monsters do not have souls, their souls being from a magical creature would not last long in the human/material world. This means a normal monsters soul just almost disappers immediately, but "boss" monsters would last longer.
Secondly, Chara is not controlling Flowey, the bigger twist is that Chara is actually piggybacking off the human that fell into the underground, gaining strength whenever that human kills a monster. Third, after Asriel died, he really is gone, but there are some implications that their "dust" contains everything but their soul, which means Flowey isn't really Asriel, just an inanimate object given determination to live. Some people are even speculating that Flowey isn't really Asriel after all, he's just a "clone" of Asriel born from his dust and memories, but no soul. But there's no direct confirmation of that ingame.

Originally posted by Imparell:

Flowey.

Flowey specifically said that the creature with the most determination in the underground will have the power of reset. This means when the human fell into the underground Flowey lost it's ability to reset. That's also the reason Flowey is obsessed with the fallen human, because it's something new not found in all of his resets. Chara is another thing entirely, worse, the game doesn't really specify when did determination being a thing on the underground began.

Originally posted by Imparell:

Ahem, how is there a regular, plain dog, in the undergrounds?

Nope, it's The Annoying Dog, the personification of TobyFox, the game's programmer, and his hobby is trolling the ingame characters. The game has a really bizarre sense of fourthwall breaking while also half pretending the wall exists....

Originally posted by Imparell:

Let's get into geological stuff.

I'm taking the easy way out and say the word "magic". Seriously though, it easn't really explained why Snowdin has snow while inside of a cave, I'll let this slide. =P

Originally posted by Imparell:

So why do they want out so badly?

IMO People normally think that the grass is always greener on the other side. And some people just go crazy if they think they are restricted in any way, shape or form.

Originally posted by Imparell:

The endings of ending.

But the game stopped right there on that spot. And the game never specifically mentions they lived happily ever after on the ending or anything. So it's open ended, and with TobyFox saying he isn't planning on any direct sequel to Undertale, the ending becomes really good beginning for fanfiction writers.

IMO I still think you thought too much of the game's storyline, for me I just pieced together any information the game gave me, and whatever it gave me, it's enough. =P

[Weeblebeeb]

Originally posted by Zodnocroy™:

Originally posted by Ultimate Weeaboo Trash™:

nice b8 m8, do you expect that this is the first time i've seen something like this?

nice b8 m8 ;)

You think i'm joking? sure, everyone says what I just said, so I can see why you though it was bait. But i'm not joking. This is stupid. I know you put alot of time into this, and i'm sorry if I offend you, These points as to "why Undertale is flawed" is sort of stupid. I would expect you to talk about the fanbase. And the title is the most clickbaitiy thing i've ever seen. Good day.

[Zapharon☦]

The magic sense also applies here, but you gotta remember even the monsters have limited uses for their magic, which is why Alphys is needed as a scientist. She studies these magical events to see if she can find a breakthrough so they can "breakthrough" the barrier. So yes science has a say in this.

[T0M]

Originally posted by Imparell:

[2/3]
Everyone loves a certain character, whether it's Sans, Alphys, Etcetera. Let’s point them out, shall we? Let's starts with the not so bad standing character;

Papyrus, he’s an innocent character, none the less. Just very egotistic. He's excited to actually have actually captured and see a human for the first time. Given he saw it as a way to get famous he soon realized having another friend, person or monster, he could trust was better than being in the royal guard.

Undyne. Undyne, best be her temper, is actually a not so bad character. She's loud and willing to do anything for the freedom of the underground. She's prove to be more of a hero then a warrior. She can work on her hot-headedness, however.

Flowey. Flowey' views on the world is basically plain and simple, and the most real view you could think of. Kill or be killed. Of course, that’s not our views as the player, but in the world of Undertale, that is basically what the nitty-gritty is.

Muffet, a con-artist.

Asgore. Cup of tea anyone? Asgore is the king of the underground, why the underground would need a king is beyond me, but I'll over look that. Asgores fight was basically a cry for, most likely, suicide by human. While he wanted to save and get everyone out of the underground, he took up the only plan he could think of and went with it. Which was kill and gather. He "collected" 6 human souls and needed one more to break the barrier. Frisk seemed to be a great candidate for that. Asgore could've came up with more solution if he were to use his brain. He had tunnel vision and depression, no doubt about it. I mean, you lose two kids and your wife? That could do a lot to you, don't you think? Doesn't matter, you have responsibilities you taken up for.

Toriel, goat mom! Ah yes, almost everyone’s favorite. She walked you through the tutorial, and cared for you and took you into her home. Only knowing you for less than 20 minutes. She also tried to force you to stay with her and claimed you couldn't survive on your own in the underground and purposely fought you in a battle claiming you need to prove yourself could to pass her. She lost her kids, I get it. Replacing them with a kid you barely know is not the answer. Not to mention once you do leave her home and get past her, she never calls you. Or picks up the phone to check up on you to see if you were okay. Some guardian you are.

Sans. Now Sans, given he's a pretty punny character, I will admit I like his humor. However humor doesn't getcha anywhere. Sans morals are basically if you kill anything for any reason he WILL confront you about it. Whether it was out of defense or not you're in the wrong to him. He's not as lazy of a character as he seems, since he’s basically on top of you the whole game "checking in" or being at a certain area a certain time out of "coincidence". No, he's plan stalking you and judging your every move. He lazy on the sense that he still hasn't paid his tab yet.

Mettaton. The fabulous human killer robot that has more amazing legs then you, folks. A programmed machine made by the scientist, Alpyhs. Mattaton was made mostly to gain fame, no matter how you look at it. I wonder how Mettaton got so popular on the television when there was no satellite. Cables? I also saw no televisions in any of the monsters homes or areas until Mettaton became a thing. Weird.

Alpyhs, the weeaboo with a sad story. Alphys is one of the worst characters, her morals were driven on being famous, and being seen as a hero to others. Her confession and her apology wasn't the best, but I'm sure most people over looked it and forgave her. I'll forgive her for being fame hungry. However, she tried to kill us, multiple times. Mettaton was programmed to lead the character into dangerous traps that Alpyhs set up and made sure she knew what to do and how to it, all while pretending to not know a damn thing. Let’s tackle something else about our scientist. She’s not very smart. Alphys could build a killer robot to have some kind of emotion to it and still be likeable, she has a lab and have done secret experiments in it, and dare we mention that. She could've done a lot more things to benefit everyone, like, helping Asgore find a way out of the underground rather than killing humans, research. Surely that would've gotten her more publicity, but no, she didn't think of doing anything of the sort, for the many years she probably has been down there for.

We're not going to talk about Temmie or Nabstablook, ones an acid taker and the other is a depressed Tumblr user.

Toriel. Never speaks to you because a dog stole her phone if you go to the puzzle run and with the piano and call her it will ring from your inventor

[Corbent]

Just some corrections:

Flowey is not Asriel reincarnated. It is stated in the librarby I think, that a monster's dust retains it's essence (not soul) and there is a ritual in which they poured a monster's dust onto their favorite things for them to live in them. This was performed as a simbolic ritual, but it turned out that it was really true. Flowey came to being when a flower which contained Asriel's essence was injected with determination, which makes him not a reincarnation of Asriel, but some kind of clone (in the style of the Sixth Day movie).

As the legend says, with seven souls a monster can become godlike, almighty if you wish. And it is stated that it would take more or less every soul in the underground to equal a human soul. This is what flowey does, he absorbs six humans soul + a whole lot of monsters soul, and used his godlike powers to change into his "Asriel" form. After losing the souls, he will turn back, but not immediately. If you go back to the ruins after the credits roll by loading the game, he will no longer be there. Meaning the effect finally wore off.

The last thing about Flowey not feeling anything. You don't have to take him literally, just like you don't take everything literally when talking with someone. He clearly feels rage and fear at several points in the game. What he really means is that he has no empathy, he can't care about others or anything.

[in her mouth]

Best post ever.

[Zapharon☦]

[/quote]
Toriel. Never speaks to you because a dog stole her phone if you go to the puzzle run and with the piano and call her it will ring from your inventor [/quote]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YcZhaFHCq4
at the end of these calls toriel has called you back with the phone in her hands.