Alternate means to break or bypass the barrier. Discuss your ideas!.

[Zegian]

If you think about it.. the plan to make monster souls persist after death may not have worked out as intended,
but they found a way to fuse monsters together yeah?.
Why couldn't they just have Kept repeating the process of melting those who fell down into amalgamations by injecting enough determination,
and just combining the newly melted monsters with existing amalgamations and/or injecting amalgamations with determination to get them melted enough to merge with each other untill they had an amalgamation that had enough monster souls in it to break the barrier and then had it do so?.
i mean taking determination out of the souls did not reduce their effectiveness for being used to break the barrier, otherwise seven would not have been enough. and they -seamed- to think continuing to inject determination into stuff to make it work was a viable option for the plan if you read the logs..
Plus when you think about it, using a ton of monster souls together in one body as well as the existing 6 human souls is how asriel is able to reform himself, so thats a pretty good reason why given enough time and determination injections they probably could have broken out with a super amalgamation. plus they probly could have sped up the process of powering it up by giving it the 6 souls once it had the power of a single soul allready in it from combined souls.

Mainly im thinking this didn't happen because 1: its kinda horrific. (though when you think about it, So is using human souls, but the monsters probably wouldn't see it as as big a horror since its only a few souls as opposed to many, and its not the same race as them so they can ignore it easier or say all humans are evil and that they deserve it in order to ease how bad they feel about doing it. plus they probably do not know souls are still concious after being absorbed. where as its much easier to see thats the case with the amalgamations..)
(also glowing lights incapable of speaking to anybody and not appearing physically messed up doesnt look as horrific as melted melded bodys in shapes they were obviously never ment to be in, Even though at the end of it no matter wether you use amalgamates or absorbed human souls, you still get alot of minds in the same body, and arguments over which one of them if any gets to control it.)

and 2: Alphys didn't Tell people what happend or if she did the people who knew about it didn't wana do it because of the first reason not to do it.
Despite the fact that depending on your definition of death, this could be a way to escape the barrier where nobody has to die.

(some might think being apart of a super amalgamation is WORSE then death though. but then if you think that being foribly fused with another being is that bad then you really oughta consider things from the veiwpoint of the human souls that have had their bodys killed and been trapped in jars for who the heck knows how long simply for the crime of being a human and being in the underground. only to end up eventually being trapped in some other entity that wants to steal their power and deny them any freedom what so ever for the rest of said entitys existence... with conditions like that.. is it any suprize they eventually rebel or try to change their fate?. )

a much simpler solution would be to simply use one soul, exit the barrier. collect the souls of 6 more humans and then come back and break the barrier. (toriel even suggests this as a way things could have been resolved alot sooner.)
technically they could probably just take the souls of people who died of natural causes. accsidents. or what ever other reason.
then use their souls to break the barrier with out having to have killed anybody, though given in the past a monster left with 1 human soul and came back only to turn to dust from their injurys, (and as far as we can tell, LOSING the 1 human soul they had used to leave with in the process.) its understandable other monsters might be hesitent to give this method a try.

or another way to get out might have been to find a way to release souls that have been absorbed. then use 2 of them allready obtained, (the Green and the Light blue ones would probably be safest to use for this, not that the monters would nessicairly be aware of that.)
then just have 2 monsters each one takes a soul. they leave the barrier. then one releases the soul and the other takes it back in to pass it to the next monster that wants out. thus letting everybody leave with out needing to collect ANY additional souls...
though if they cant figure out how to release the souls they might have some problems with this method. (i figure one reason flowey knows how to release them may be because the souls Fought their way OUT previously. and he might have learned how to release them because of that?.. im not entirely sure why they cant just release souls.)

Or they could have maybe just tried having asgore absorb the 6 souls and then get every monster in the underground to attack the barrier with magic at the exact same point at the same time along with asgore. because all of them together +asgore with the 6 souls is equivelant to the power of 7 souls.

if seven humans created the barrier then maybe seven humans could destroy it as well.? why didn't toriel or asgore just take a soul and cross the barrier to try negotiating with the humans to take the barrier down themselfs and to teach them magic if they dont have any mages to help break it?. though to be fair this would be after chara and asriels death, so i doubt either of them would think that the humans would be ready to negotiate or simply release them.

if you could find a way to trick the barrier into thinking a human and one or more monsters are the same entity, they might be able to leave through it. if you can get away with carrying atleast 1 human and 2 monsters across with this trick and release one monster with out ruining it, you could have the human+monster remaining linked return through the barrier to help others through it.

on the lesser side of the spectrum you have just having em hold hands or something.. (i doubt this would work though.)
on more problematic ends of the spectrum you might have something like
maybe some kind of cross blood transfusion so that they seam more similar to each other,

or keeping them linked together with surgical tubing so they are literally pumping blood into each other, though you'ed need to some how avoid any really bad negative side effects of trying to do this. (also not sure if monsters even HAVE blood or not. though when you cut sans open, Something comes out of him..)
or perhaps some other method. im sure theres plenty of tricks you could do to attempt to "convince" the barrier that you and one or more monsters are the same entity.

While probably one of the least reliable or safe methods to try, and having a high estimated chance of failure and risk to everybody involved depending on how you attempt it, the upshot of it is that technically if you manage to pull this off, NO souls have to be absorbed to have a solution to the barrier problem. just need a single cooperative and living human, and what ever stuff you need for your trick.

Ultimately theres probably plenty of ways the barrier could be broken or bypassed.
but i dont think asgore or toriel really WANT it broken or bypassed since i dont think they belive human and monster civilizations would be able to get along with each other peacefully in the grand scheam of things. (aside from true pacifist ending where your actions convince enough monsters that not all humans are bad that they drop the war with humanity thing and go for peace instead.)
though asgore would probably go along with his promise regaurdless even though he really really doesnt want to because its his duty to take care of his people, and if his people want to go to the surface and try to wipe out humanity, and he has the ability to do so and they know it.. and they realize it and call him out on it.. then he kinda "has to" do that if he doesnt want his peoples hopes to fall. (also asgore might not have been as good at outside the box thinking or clever tricks as many other people are and could have ended up not ever thinking of any of these tricks and thinking the way he's doing it is the ONLY way TO do it... )

Also he DID cause 6 humans to die allready due to his policy and he could have canceled the "kill all the humans that come here" policy any time before then.. (not sure how many if any he killed himself and how many were done because of his order. but from the perspective of any humans that mighta dusted monsters before being killed, they were perfectly justified in defending themselfs from soul stealing creatures out to kill them. though deaths of people both human and monster doesnt really help positive relations between either of them does it?.)

(though to be fair to asgore, he Does seam to Drag his feet as much as possible when it comes to actually breaking the barrier and going to war. and he does have people looking for alternate solutions. my guess is he knows from past experience that war = tons of good people die and thats probably why he wants to avoid it. so im guessing he kinda -does- want the barrier gone but does -not- want war to happen, even though his people do untill their minds change on some endings?.)

anyways, what do you folks think?. can you come up with any other solutions or tricks to solve the "how to get the monsters out of the barrier" problem?. if you can come up with any i have not listed yet, please post em.

[Supreme™ [Kef]]

I actually think it would have been a happier, though not necessarily better, ending if the barrier simply wasn't broken.

[fushigi friend]

My head cannon is that Asgore doesn't want to break the barrier at all, but doesn't want to get exiled either. Remember in one of the nuteral endings where Toriel gets exiled because she decides to treat humans as friends, directly after one mysteriously disapeared with the human souls AND killed Asgore (or at least that's what they think)? Well, imagine if after the same civilization that trapped the monsters underground in the first place then killed the kings son who was simply carrying out his brother's Yes. I said brother. Once again, head cannon. last wishes, and then the king went "Nah, it's fine. We shouldn't break the barrier and do anything about this!" If the monsters would exile Toriel, they would sure love to exile Asgore. He's also had to kill/make his soldiers kill 6 more humans, and doesn't want to kill more, especialy a child. Being a king is stressful enough in normal times, but during things like this, it's absalutly terrible. I assume monsters can't die of stress, because if they could, Asgore would have died 10 times over.

[Supreme™ [Kef]]

引用自 A person：

My head cannon is that Asgore doesn't want to break the barrier at all, but doesn't want to get exiled either. Remember in one of the nuteral endings where Toriel gets exiled because she decides to treat humans as friends, directly after one mysteriously disapeared with the human souls AND killed Asgore (or at least that's what they think)? Well, imagine if after the same civilization that trapped the monsters underground in the first place then killed the kings son who was simply carrying out his brother's Yes. I said brother. Once again, head cannon. last wishes, and then the king went "Nah, it's fine. We shouldn't break the barrier and do anything about this!" If the monsters would exile Toriel, they would sure love to exile Asgore. He's also had to kill/make his soldiers kill 6 more humans, and doesn't want to kill more, especialy a child. Being a king is stressful enough in normal times, but during things like this, it's absalutly terrible. I assume monsters can't die of stress, because if they could, Asgore would have died 10 times over.

That sounds very reasonable, but wouldn't Toriel then be more sympathetic towards him?

[fushigi friend]

引用自 عزرائيل الحالم：

引用自 A person：

My head cannon is that Asgore doesn't want to break the barrier at all, but doesn't want to get exiled either. Remember in one of the nuteral endings where Toriel gets exiled because she decides to treat humans as friends, directly after one mysteriously disapeared with the human souls AND killed Asgore (or at least that's what they think)? Well, imagine if after the same civilization that trapped the monsters underground in the first place then killed the kings son who was simply carrying out his brother's Yes. I said brother. Once again, head cannon. last wishes, and then the king went "Nah, it's fine. We shouldn't break the barrier and do anything about this!" If the monsters would exile Toriel, they would sure love to exile Asgore. He's also had to kill/make his soldiers kill 6 more humans, and doesn't want to kill more, especialy a child. Being a king is stressful enough in normal times, but during things like this, it's absalutly terrible. I assume monsters can't die of stress, because if they could, Asgore would have died 10 times over.

That sounds very reasonable, but wouldn't Toriel then be more sympathetic towards him?

But what does that have to do with the other monsters wanting to exile any ruler that doesn't hate humans?

[Supreme™ [Kef]]

引用自 A person：

引用自 عزرائيل الحالم：

That sounds very reasonable, but wouldn't Toriel then be more sympathetic towards him?

But what does that have to do with the other monsters wanting to exile any ruler that doesn't hate humans?

Nothing, but wouldn't Toriel be more forgiving if she understood the dilemma Asgore was in? Perhaps not, since he still always had the choice not to kill the humans.

[Dummpkopf (ako)]

This is all really interesting and puts us in the royal scientist's position: Trying thinking of a way to break the barrier, to finally give up because it's just impossible. Like, there isn't any possible good ending. It's sad :(

[{루루}RuRu]

Why dont they just...
climb up the hole frisk fell into?

[Supreme™ [Kef]]

引用自 Lucie#exams：

Why dont they just...
climb up the hole frisk fell into?

The barrier is still in place there. It's just that anyone can pass through the barrier into the underground, but not the other way round.

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

Well if Undertale exists in a world where different choices lead to different outcomes, and different timelines, then perhaps there's a sort of multiverse idea here.

So what if somewhere there was a timeline where it was the humans that were sent to the underground instead of the monsters? In this case someone could create a machine that can travel to these different timelines and learn what choices caused this outcome, and then go back and replicate them in their own timeline.

[Supreme™ [Kef]]

引用自 (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr：

Well if Undertale exists in a world where different choices lead to different outcomes, and different timelines, then perhaps there's a sort of multiverse idea here.

So what if somewhere there was a timeline where it was the humans that were sent to the underground instead of the monsters? In this case someone could create a machine that can travel to these different timelines and learn what choices caused this outcome, and then go back and replicate them in their own timeline.

But how would they make this machine in the first place? And please don't bring up Sans' lab, you're given nothing but a few vague descriptions.

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

引用自 عزرائيل الحالم：

引用自 (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr：

Well if Undertale exists in a world where different choices lead to different outcomes, and different timelines, then perhaps there's a sort of multiverse idea here.

So what if somewhere there was a timeline where it was the humans that were sent to the underground instead of the monsters? In this case someone could create a machine that can travel to these different timelines and learn what choices caused this outcome, and then go back and replicate them in their own timeline.

But how would they make this machine in the first place? And please don't bring up Sans' lab, you're given nothing but a few vague descriptions.

Well you effectively do this in Undertale by hacking the game and changing your "fun" value. So I'd imagine the machine would use a supply of determination to do the same thing.

[Supreme™ [Kef]]

引用自 (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr：

引用自 عزرائيل الحالم：

But how would they make this machine in the first place? And please don't bring up Sans' lab, you're given nothing but a few vague descriptions.

Well you effectively do this in Undertale by hacking the game and changing your "fun" value. So I'd imagine the machine would use a supply of determination to do the same thing.

I just got the impression that fun values were gags used to make the game more interesting...

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

That being said, I do think this was the purpose of the broken machine in Sans' lab, and what W.D. Gaster was trying to achieve.

I mean, you have to use fun values to find out about W.D. Gaster in the first place, so it's not hard to imagine that the two are somehow connected.

[Supreme™ [Kef]]

引用自 (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr：

That being said, I do think this was the purpose of the broken machine in Sans' lab, and what W.D. Gaster was trying to achieve.

I mean, you have to use fun values to find out about W.D. Gaster in the first place, so it's not hard to imagine that the two are somehow connected.

Perhaps. I just can't be bothered with all that, since it doesn't involve any areas of Undertale I'm interested in discussing.

[The Gaben]

maybe they would've drilled the ceiling and they would be out
but I dont know if it will work