My Final Thoughts About Chara

[Soundless1997]

I'm sure most of you who are reading this already knows for a fact that Chara is the only character in the game that keeps their memories after a True Reset. This is proven by the fact that after completing the Genocide Route at least once (assuming you never manipulate the game's files in your computer), the ending of the True Pacifist Route is permanently ruined by Chara as they have completely taken over Frisk's body and soul. This led me to believe that Chara is the most evil character in the entire game, even far worse than Flowey.

That's not just it. Chara also takes over the narration during the Genocide Route with quotes such as: "My bed", "I unlocked the chain", "The date I came here", etc. These quotes gave me the impression that they are taking over Frisk's body and that they are the one who is committing the genocide.

Now I know at least half the Undertale community has a different take on this saying that Chara isn't evil for reasons like how they were close with the royal family during the time they were alive, and that's okay with me. You can say Chara is a good person. However, that doesn't mean I'll like them. Even though they may be a good person back in 201X, that doesn't account for what they could potentially do to Frisk during their journey in the underground.

Whether Chara is a good person or not, they are my least favorite character. Capiche?

[rorgfist]

BreakinBenny の投稿を引用：

I do not see Chara as fully evil, nuh-uh.

Well, they are a genocidal maniac who wants to kill not only their enemies, but also mankind, their friends and even their own brother.

If you dont see that as evil, thats on you, actually.

BreakinBenny の投稿を引用：

Do you honestly believe Chara was evil all along? The players are also involved and are pulling the strings in the first place.

So…the true antagonists are players themselves, should they decide to walk down the path where they exterminate the inhabitants of the underground.

Every murder in the genocide run but the last 2 are by your hand, totally correct, yeah.

That doesnt make chara any less evil.

Yes, i firmly believe chara was evil all along, since way before frisk even fell to the underground.

In fact, the only reason chara didnt level a village was asriel.

And yes, the true antagonists are the player in the genocide run. That doesnt mean chara any less evil.

To clarify things.

If someone is a genocidal maniac who murders their own brothers, friends and also innocent unrelated people, that person is evil.

Why should the fact that there are other genocidal maniacs in the world make them any less evil?

Can you even imagine a judge saying in a court.

"Well, yes, the accused killed 13 men and 11 woman just because they were bored, but there are far worse murderes in history, so he isnt evil"

Please, just think it a little.

Frisk actions doesnt change absolutely anything about chara.
In any run.

[Mask]

rorgfist の投稿を引用：

Please, use spaces and paragraphs, is learned at such a young age for a very good reason.

Bricks of text are slow and annoying to read, also, dont forget to separate different phrases clearly, instead of putting such a tight brick.

I will humour you this time, but i wont read something that ill structured again.

1 They didnt when they fell, they only came with one later, as the videos show, yes.
Nothing new here.


2 They could very well be mistreated, and that could very well be the reason for their hate, that doesnt really change anything at all.


3 Invalid point. They could have just left the body on the flower bed and fled, they were vastly faster and stronger than the humans. Monsters also attack you as soon as they see you in game, just like humans did to asriel. Yet you dont have to kill them, you can flee, heck, you can even complete the entire game without landing a single blow.


4 There is nothing that points to a suicide in the entire game. Its not impossible, but it certainly cant be confirmed, while im open to theorycrafting, it cant be taken as canon, neither it can be used to explain anything about chara in the canon either.


5 It isnt said that chara hates monster, yes, yet they carefully warn you about how many monsters are left alive so you can have an easier time exterminating them, behaves violently killing asgore and flowey on their own (and later, you, the player), and then go on a killing spree against their own friends, as shown in the post-pacifist picture.
Someone that actively kills monsters and help you kill monsters is someone who hates monsters.

It isnt said, it is shown, which is an even stronger way of expressing it.

6 chara cant knit, they are a child, do you have any canon confirmation/quote/video about it?

7 whats your native language? i speak 3 languages, maybe we actually share a common language that is easier for you than english.
Also, my apologies for the text brick rant before, i just thought you were written in an unorganized and careless way on purpose.

Still, try to space things a little, please.

Second comment:

8 Chara is good? what?
Unless your religion considers genocide as a pure and noble virtue.

9 ill quote you:

""How can we prove that? With frogs! Yes seriously with frogs. In fact, with Froggits. In the textboxes of Froggits the following is noticeable. First comes what Froggit uttered, followed by a translation in brackets. From whom could Frisk have this translation. Possibly from someone who lived longer under the monsters. It is probably clear what I want out""

That doesnt mean anything. It proves nothing or hints nothing, Its like saying that chara was good because tomorrow will be tuesday. Its completely unrelated.

10 well, i dont agree to that AT ALL.

Chara should be buried OUTSIDE of the barrier, next to the village.
Asriel took Chara´s corpse through the barrier( thats the whole reason he got attacked), and return without it.

In the very best case scenario, i could be where Asriel landed and dusted (and thus, when asriel is buried, it is also where kid asriel is after pacifist.)

Asriel gave his own life so Chara could be buried at the village, it would make 0 sense for him to return again with their body; the flower patch is part of the underground, chara isnt buried on the underground.

11 Provide link for the coffin having the name of CHARA on it, i have never seen it.
I dont know if this is real or not, it would be nice to know for sure.

12 why is toriel taking care fo those flowers? probably because its the palce where Asriel died.
Asriel came back to teh underground fatally wounded.
You find flowey there, you find kid asriel permanently there too.
And it perfectly justifies toriels behaviour.


13 Frisk determination could be the reson charas consciousness came back from death.
Not charas soul, as chara doesnt have a soul till you give yours.


14 Charas presence, comments and influence get stronger and stronger the more love you get, so if you have low love (1-7) it makes perfect sense for chara to not say or do anything.


15 I will quote you again

""And you have to look at it all from Chara's point of view. She suddenly awakens without any directly explainable reason and the first thing she sees is how a HUMAN kills monsters. I suppose that Chara is forced by Frisk's determination to accompany him and has to watch this genocide. Referring to the comments in the Pacifit and Genocide: genocide comments are useless! While Chara gives the best tips in the Pacifist Frisk to conserve with the monster and not kill. But why does Chara sometimes say something like "free EXP" in genocide? Or "in my way". Now Chara repeats the opinion that the player thinks she has from this world.""

That was entirely created out of thin air. Chara either comments nothing, or comments things like "free exp" or "in my way" "12 monsters left" and so on.

All of their commentaries are encouraging genocide, which is evil. And have no justification in canon. Chara beign forced to X by frisk determination is completely false (go ahead and prove it if you think otherwise)
Chara repeating the opinion of the player is also completely false and unfounded.

Canon facts and words only, please. Do not try to justify unjustifying things with completely made up stories.

16 Chara, as anyone with a bit of logic, cant understand why you gave your own soul, body and life (chara can take over your body afterwards as proven in post genocide pacifist) just for nothing, as you repeated exactly the same again.

And its totally logical of chara.

You gave everything you had, not to change anything, but to end up on the exact same spot.

You want to know charas true thoughts, actions and words.

Read the red text, and watch what they do when they can actually do something, at the end of genocide or at the end of post-genocide pacifist.

Every single time chara can actually act, he murders everyone, you, your friends, their brother.....

And this is canon, those are charas actions when they can act.

Tell me, my first and only question.

If chara is anything other than completely evil...... why does they kill everyone after doing a perfect happy ending?

Because thats what they do if they have your soul and you complete pacifist.

Not to mention destroying the entire world as soon as they are powerful enough to do it.

Ja gut ich muss zugeben, dass mein Text eher unleselich war. Erstmal hoffe ich das du Deutsch kannst. Zweitens: Ich kann zwar Englisch bin aber zu faul um das alles erst zu übersetzen und dann so klingen zu lassen wie das was ich sagen wollte.
Nun aber zu deiner Kritik an meiner Theorie. Du hast wichtige Punkte genannt, aber ich glaube ich kann die meisten gut entgegnen:

2. Ich wollte hier nur einen MÖGLICHEN Grund finden weshalb Chara Menschen hasst, mehr nicht!
3. Ja Monster attakieren dich, aufgrund des Befehls von Asgore. Nehmen wir an Chara hasst Menschen, weil sie misshandelt wurde. Sie will sich aus diesem Grund mit Gewalt wehren, da sie weiß das in diesem Fall reden nicht helfen wird. Ich meine da sind ein Haufen Leute, mit was auch immer auf Asriel einschlagen! In dem Fall wäre das keine böse Tat sondern Notwehr!
4. Hier habe lediglich eine Theorie aufgestellt warum Chara nach Mount Ebott flieht.
5. Das ist tatsächlich der größte Knackpunkt meiner Theorie. Aber Bilder lassen ja mehr Interpretationsraum zu. Ich sehe du stimmst mir zu, das Chara Frisk/Player begleitet. Ich komme noch mal auf das Verhalten von Chara zurück. Im Genozid sagt sie nicht viel und das einzig nützliche sind die Monsterzahlen. Ich möchte hier einen weiteren Punkt einbringen:

Die Farbe der Schrift in den Textboxen: Weiß ist normal. Gelb bedeutet meistens wichtige Informationen (z.B. Papyrus Wegbeschreibung). Und Rot weist offenbar auf emotionale Reaktionen hin. Dies kann man am Anfang vom Pacifist sehen, wenn Toriel über Asgore redet. Sein Name erscheint Rot (er ist schließlich ihr Ehemann).
Und bei Chara sieht man diese rote Schriftfarbe STÄNDIG. Wenn man zum Beispiel Asgores Haus im Genozid betritt, kommen im Kinderzimmer Kommentare zustande wie: "Mein Bild." oder "Er hat diesen Pulli immer noch." Emotionale Reaktionen sind hier durchaus angebracht, da Chara schließlich bei den Dreemuurs gelebt hat!
Bleiben wir bei der roten "Emotionsschrift". Die Angabe der Monsteranzahl ist auch rot! Das bedeutet, wenn man meine Theorie stimmt, dass Chara irgendtwas in dieser Situation für die Monster empfindet, die immer weniger werden. Würde sie die Monster tot sehen wollen und nur als ein Hindernis oder etwas, was sie nur stärker macht sehen, warum solllte sie emotional reagieren?
Vielleicht weil sie wahrscheinlich so was denkt wie "Oh nein, es werden weniger..." Man weiß ja nicht direkt, wie eigentlich der Player und Chara kommunizieren. Es heißt ja nicht, das Chara unbedingt sprechen muss! Bloße Gedanken könnten ja schon ausreichen. Außerdem bist du nicht darauf eingegangen, dass Chara dich nicht im Pacifist "anstachelt" sondern Tipps für die Interaktion mit Monstern gibt!
Kurzer Cut...

[Mask]

Aber da wir ja ein Fan von Monsterzahlen sind lass uns einmal klären wen bzw. wie viele Chara getötet hat. Die Antwort sind zwei. Flowey und Asgore. Und Asgore wurde von Chara selbst eigentlich nur schwer verletzt. Der Endschlag wurde von Flowey ausgeübt. Also bleibt Flowey übrig, der gerade seinen eigenen Vater umgebracht hat.

Doch zuerst muss ich noch einmal die Rollenverteilung in Undertale verdeutlichen: Da bist du, der Player, welcher wiederrum Frisk steuert. Der Player hat im Genocid so ziemlich jedes Monster im Untergrund getötet. Er hätte jederzeit aufhören können und wurde auch von niemanden aktiv angestachelt nach dem Motto "Los mach weiter!".
Chara tötet selbst eine einzige Person. Und diese ist der klägliche SEELENLOSE Überbleibsel ihres Freundes. Ich denke Chara setzt mit Floweys Mord einen Schlussstrich. Sie weiß ja schließlich das der Player, der fast jedes Monster im Untergrund ohne für sie erklärbaren Grund abgeschlachtet hat, nicht vor einer kleinen Blume halt macht.

Aber bevor ich jetzt zu meinen endgültigen Argument komme, muss ich deine letzten Kritikpunkte in Angriff nehmen:

6. Nur weil Chara ein Kind ist heißt das nicht, dass sie nicht stricken kann. Und das beste Argument welches dafür spricht ist das Ausschlussverfahren. Welcher der Familenmitglieder würde nach der Aufschrift des Pullis zu urteilen der beste Kanidat (es sei denn DU nennst deinen leiblichen Vater Mister...).

9. Die Froggits haben mit der eigentlichen Theorie kaum was zu tun. sie dienen nur als Beweis , dass Chara Frisk begleitet.
10. Asriel ist mit Chara zurückgegangen! Der Sarg und die Monster beweisen dies. Und überhaupt: Warum sollte Chara Frisk begleiten müssen, wenn ihr Grab woanders ist?

11. Das ist ein Fakt! Spiele das Spiel!

12. Diese Aussage ist ist falsch. Asriel starb im Thronraum (wo Flowey auch entstand). Im wahren Labor erfährt man wie die goldenen Blumen in den Untergrund kamen und von den Monstern vor Asgores Haus (Pacifist) wo Asriel starb und zu Staub zerfiel.

13. Mit Seele meine ich was von Chara übrig ist. Also so was wie ein Geist.

14. Natürlich wird die Präsens stärker! Doch aktiv deine Handlungen beeinflussen tut Chara nach wie vor nicht! Du drückst immer noch freiwillig auf "Fight".

15. "Free EXP": Das sagt Chara wenn du Monster Kid angreifst (kurz vor Undyne Fight).
Und natürlich wiederholt sie die Meinung die der Player von der Welt hat. Oder zumindest die, von der Chara denkt das du diese Meinung hast. Aus ihrer Sicht ist der Player, einfach jemand der Spaß daran zu haben scheint grundlos Leute abzuschlachten um "mächtiger" zu werden. Da sie bis zum Ende nichts gegen dich ausrichten kann ist sie ansonsten eher gleichgültig ("...").
Chara wird stärker in ihrem Willen die Monster zu rächen und dich zu töten. Oder besser gesagt sie wird entschlossener! LOVE bezeichnet die Bereitschaft jemanden zu töten bzw. wie leicht es ist jemanden zu töten. Und im Statusmenü wird Frisks Name nicht angezeigt sondern Charas!

Und jetzt zu Punkt 16...
Du denkst ich habe schon alles gegeben. HAHAHA! Ich fange doch gerade erst an. Und mein Hauptargument ist das Ende vom Pacifist Run nachdem du den Genozid gemacht hast!:

Ich habe mir den kompletten Dialog mit angesehen den Chara am Ende vom Genozid mit dir führt: Es wird deutlich das sie klar aussagt, dass sie erst durch DICH den Spieler wieder zurück ins Leben zurückgerufen wurde. Und zwar durch die Morde die du begangen hast. Es fällt mir dabei ein kleines Detail auf. Chara nennt den Spieler Partner. Allerdings in Anführungsstrichen gesetzt. Dies sieht eher aus als würde sie dies sarkastisch meinen, da sie dich zwar begleitet hat aber dich nie aktiv oder zumindest unbeabsichtigt unterstützt hat. Noch interssanter sind die Worte die Chara äußert, wenn du das Spiel noch mal öffnest. Nach 10 Minuten warten, fragt sie dich, was du hier noch machst. DU hast ja bereits alles vernichtet.

Ich hoffe du verstehst worauf ich hinaus will. Warum sagt Chara nicht WIR? Ich meine egal ob Chara böse ist oder nicht, sie müsste dich als Partner betrachten für die Mordserie betrachten, da DU ja schließlich alle umgebracht hast während CHARA dich (wenn man annimmt das sie böse ist) unterstützt hat. Es wäre ein Partnerschaft aber Chara sagt aus das DU alles gemacht hast.

Jetzt bleibt jedoch die Frage offen, weshalb Chara die Welt auf Anfang setzt im Austausch für deine Seele. Man könnte dies als eine zweite Chance betrachten in der du den richtigen Weg einschlagen kannst. Und man kann nicht sagen das sie dies nur tut um alle Monster immer und immer wieder umzubringen. Wenn du zwei Genozid-Wege hintereinander einschlägst, meint Chara das sie nicht verstehe warum das alles nochmal getan hast und sagt wortwörtlich das sie deine kranke Art nicht nachvollziehen kann. Aber warum denn nicht? Ist es denn nicht das was sie wollte? Nein!
Gehen wir nochmal einen Schritt zurück: Chara stellt dir am Ende vom Genozid die berühmte Frage: Ob die Welt die du geleert hast nun endgültig zerstört werden soll, da ja schließlich nichts Lebendiges mehr übrig ist. Weigerst du dich aber, ist Chara verwundert. Und das macht Sinn. All die Zeit dachte sie, dass du jemand bist der einfach nur die Welt, mit allem die dort Leben, vernichten willst. Und jetzt ziehst du es nicht durch?
Jetzt könnte man sagen: "Aber im Post-Genozid Ende sieht man doch doch das Chara den Platz von Frisk einnimmt und alle tötet!"
Die Aussage das Chara alle Monster trotzdem tötet kann man nicht bestätigen. Man sieht nur die Monster, deren Gesicher mit rotem Stift überkritzelt wurden. Ja, Chara hat nun Frisks Platz eingenommen, aber weshalb? Ganz einfach. Chara gibt dir die Möglichkeit zurückzukehren im Austausch deiner Seele, richtig? Dies tut sie um die Macht über das Spiel zu gelangen. Aber Grund heißt nicht einfach nur Macht. Chara will sicherstellen das du ihre Freunde nicht doch noch tötest und übernimmt deshalb die Kontrolle. Das Foto am Ende soll dir nur zeigen, was DU getan hast!
Chara gab dir eine weitere Chance. Das heißt aber nicht das sie dir vergibt.

Jetzt gäbe es noch eine Sache die gegen Charas "Unschuld" sprechen würde: Chara wird mit den ansteigenden LV aktiver. Das muss aber nicht heißen, dass sie dann im Pazifist-Run überhaupt aktiv ist, oder? Nein!
Chara ist sehr wohl aktiv. Und LV hat so gesehen nichts mit der direkten "Redemöglichkeit" zu tun. Im Pazifist-Run fällt einem vielleicht auf das die Kommentare zu allem eigentlich etwas zu menschlich für eine neutrale Textboxnachricht wirken. Jetzt könnte man entgegnen: "Das hat Toby Fox extra so gemacht!" Aber es gibt eine Textbox die diese Meinung in Frage stellt!

Kurz vor Ende des True Pacifist gibt es die Möglichkeit umherzulaufen, richtig? Wenn du zu einem Spiegel gehst und mit diesem interagierst erscheint die Textbox: "Das bist du Frisk!"
Im Gegensatz zu vielen anderen Textboxen ist diese nicht einfach nur sarkastisch oder lustig. Es ist eine persöhnliche Ansprache! Es wirkt beinahe so als würde jemand bei Frisk sein. In dem Fall ist es meiner meinung nach Chara die hier und was weiß ich wo sehr redegewand war!

Aber ich merke das wird dich nicht so ganz überzeugen, aber ich habe noch etwas für dich:

True Pacifist, Kampf gegen Asriel Dreemuur:
Man weiß ja das man in den letzten Momenten des Kampfes an die Erinnerungen seiner Freunde apellieren muss um ihre "Seelen" wieder klar zu machen. Das selbe tust du mit Asriel Dreemuur. Aber Frisk teilt keinen einzigen schönen Moment mit Asriel an die man ihn erinnern könnte.
Und dann passiert etwas Interessantes. Plötzlich gibt es eine Cutscene in der Chara gerade im Blumenbeet gelandet ist und Asriel sie findet + Happy Family Plot. Von wem könnte Asriel wohl diese Erinnerung haben? Jetzt könnte man sagen: "Hey, er denkt einfach selber dran!"
Aber man muss die Situation betrachten. Asriel denkt in seinem Wahnsinn an nichts anderes als die Welt zu zerstören um sie dann wieder zu reseten um dann alles von vorne zu machen. Er glaubt ja von Anfang an das Frisk Chara ist! Ich glaube nicht das Asriel in den Moment in schönen Familienerinnerungen schwelgt.
Aber du willst etwas handfesteres? Gut! Ich brauche dazu nicht viel mehr als das zweite Bild der Cutscene. Wir sehen alles in der Cutscene in der Dritten-Person-Perspektive. Und man sieht NUR Chara. Asriel taucht erst im dritten Bild an dem Tor zu dieser "Lichtung" (keine Ahnung wie man das nennen soll) auf. Was zeigt uns das? Das es eindeutig Charas Erinnerung ist. Das allererste Bild zeigt ja noch wie Chara fällt. Niemand war bei ihr und diese Cutscene ist eine ergänzung zu der am Anfang des Spiels.

Also es ist Charas Erinnerung. Was kann man damit anfangen? Eine Menge! Es zeigt die den größten aktiven Einsatz den Chara im ganzen Spiel je tätigte. Frisk kennt Asriel eigentlich gar nicht und kann ihn deshalb auch nicht mit "schönen Erinnerungen" überzeugen. Aber Chara kann es. Zumindest wenn sie über Frisk/Player mit Asriel kommuniziert.
Und erst nach dieser Cutscene kommt Asriel langsam wieder zur Besinnung!
Auch (ich kanns nicht konkret beweisen) scheint er zu merken, dass Frisk in der Nähe von Frisk ist, da er diesen immer noch mit Chara anredet während er seine traurige Rede hält.
Nicht Frisk sondern Chara hat Asriel gerettet.

So jetzt habe ich so gut wie jedes Argument zusammengekratzt, was Chara zwar nicht als unschuldig hinstellt aber definitiv aus ihrer "ULTIMATIVES BÖSE"-Rolle rausholt. Fast...

Ich möchte zunächst erklären warum ich zu dieser Theorie kam:
Es kommt mir viel zu einfach vor zu sagen, dass Chara das BÖSE ist. Auch wiederspricht es gegen die eigentliche Hauptaussage des Spiels: Du der Spieler entscheidest über das Schicksal des Untergrunds!
Das ist nähmlich das was Undertale doch so einzigartig macht! Du der Spieler entscheidest ob du der Böse oder der Gute bist. Jedes einzelne Monster (außer Papyrus...) versucht dich aus selbstsüchtigen Gründen umzubringen. Undyne tötet freiwillig Kinder, weil sie der festen Überzeugung ist das alle Menschen schlecht sind. Mettaton will mit deiner Seele die Barriere überqueren um berühmt zu werden. Alphys begibt dich absichtlich in Gefahr um am Ende gut da zu stehen.
Und du kannst sie entweder töten oder verschonen. Man zwingt dich in eine ähnliche Situation wie seinerzeit Asriel und Chara: Töten wir die, die uns angreifen? Oder veschonen wir sie und laufen weg?
Undertale braucht keinen Bösewicht. Nur jemanden der eine Entscheidung trifft.

Nebenbei du hast gesagt das viele meiner Argumente nicht Canon sind. Aber nach der Regel ist dein Argument, das Dinge im Wiki stehen, die gegen Chara sprechen stehen, nicht haltbar!
Egal welches Spiel: Als Canon gilt immer das was das Spiel einem als klare Information gibt oder was sein Entwickler darüber sagt. Und diese Wikis werden immer von Fans erstellt fast nie vom Entwickler. Es ist die typische Wikipedia Situation: Jeder kann dort seinen Scheiß reinschreiben.
Außerdem habe ich mir das Wiki angesehen und steckt in der Beschreibung von Charas Charakter mindestens genau so viel Interpretation drin, wie in meiner Theorie.
Und das ist das Problem mit Undertale: Du wirst im gesamten Spiel niemanden finden der dir klipp und klar sagt was abgeht.
MatPat sagte doch mal: "But hey, that´s just a Theory! A Game Theory!

[Mask]

Und ja ich weiß es ist arschlang!

[Casual Amateur]

I going to use a program translate this.

Happy Mask Salesman の投稿を引用：

Okay, I have to admit that my lyrics were rather unreadable. First, I hope you speak German. Second, I can speak English but I'm too lazy to translate it all first and then make it sound like what I wanted to say.
But now to your criticism of my theory. You mentioned important points, but I think I can answer most well:

2. I just wanted to find one reason why Chara hates people, that's all!
3. Yes monsters attack you, due to the command of Asgore. Chara hates people because she was abused. She wants to resist this because of violence because she knows that talking in this case will not help. I mean, there are a lot of people, with whatever on Asriel! In that case, that would not be a bad deed but self-defense!
4. Here's just a theory why Chara flees to Mount Ebott.
5. That's actually the biggest sticking point of my theory. But pictures allow more interpretation space. I see you agree that Chara Frisk / Player is accompanying. I return to the behavior of Chara. In genocide, it does not say much and the only useful thing is the monster numbers. I would like to introduce another point here:

The color of the font in the text boxes: white is normal. Yellow usually means important information (for example, papyrus directions). And red evidently indicates emotional reactions. This can be seen in the beginning of the Pacifist, when Toriel talks about Asgore. His name appears red (he is her husband after all).
And with Chara you can see this red font color PERMANENT. For example, when you enter Asgore's house in genocide, comments are made in the nursery, such as "My picture." or "He still has this sweater." Emotional reactions are quite appropriate here, as Chara has finally lived with the Dreemuurs!
Let's stay with the red "Emotionsschrift". The number of monsters is also red! That means, if you agree with my theory, that Chara feels something in this situation for the monsters that are getting less and less. Would she want to see the monsters dead and only as an obstacle or something that just makes her stronger, why should she react emotionally?
Maybe because she probably thinks something like "Oh no, it will be less ..." You do not know how the player and Chara actually communicate. It does not mean that Chara must speak! Mere thoughts could be enough. Besides, you did not agree that Chara does not "incite" you in the Pacifist, but gives tips for interacting with monsters!
Short cut ...

And this.

Happy Mask Salesman の投稿を引用：

But since we are a fan of monster numbers, let's see who or how many killed Chara. The answer is two. Flowey and Asgore. And Asgore was actually badly injured by Chara himself. The final blow was exercised by Flowey. So Flowey is left, who just killed his own father.

But first I have to clarify once again the roles in Undertale: There you are, the player, which controls Frisk again. The player killed just about every monster in Genocid. He could have stopped at any time and was also actively encouraged by nobody according to the motto "Go on!".
Chara kills one person. And this is the pitiful, soulless remnant of her friend. I think Chara puts an end to Flowey's murder. After all, she knows that the player who has slaughtered almost every monster in the underground without a reason that can only be explained to her does not stop at a small flower.

But before I come to my final argument, I have to tackle your last criticisms:

6. Just because Chara is a child does not mean she can not knit. And the best argument for this is the exclusion process. Which of the members of the family would be judged to be the best Kanidat (unless you call your biological father Mister ...), according to the label of the pullover.

9. The Froggits have little to do with the actual theory. they serve only as proof that Chara accompanies Frisk.
10. Asriel went back with Chara! The coffin and the monsters prove this. And anyway, why would Chara have to accompany Frisk when her grave is elsewhere?

11. That's a fact! Play the game!

12. This statement is wrong. Asriel died in the throne room (where Flowey also emerged). In the true lab you learn how the golden flowers came underground and the monsters in front of Asgore's house (Pacifist) where Asriel died and fell to dust.

13. By soul I mean what's left of Chara. So something like a ghost.

14. Of course, the present becomes stronger! But Chara is still not actively influencing your actions! You still press voluntarily on "Fight".

15. "Free EXP": That's what Chara says when you attack Monster Kid (just before Undyne Fight).
And of course she repeats the opinion that the player of the world has. Or at least the one that Chara thinks you have that opinion of. From their point of view, the player is just someone who enjoys having no reason to slaughter people to become "more powerful". Since she can not do anything against you until the end she is otherwise indifferent ("...").
Chara gets stronger in her will to avenge the monsters and kill you. Or rather she becomes more determined! LOVE is the willingness to kill someone or how easy it is to kill someone. And in the status menu Frisks name is not displayed but Charas!

And now to point 16 ...
You think I have already given everything. HAHAHA! I'm just starting. And my main argument is the end of the Pacifist Run after you made the genocide !:

I have seen the complete dialogue with Chara at the end of the genocide with you: It becomes clear that she clearly states that she was only called back to life by YOU the player back. And by the murders you have committed. I notice a small detail. Chara calls the player partner. However, put in quotes. This looks rather sarcastic, as she accompanied you but never actively or at least inadvertently supported you. Even more interesting are the words that Chara expresses when you open the game again. After waiting for 10 minutes, she asks you what you are doing here. YOU have already destroyed everything.

I hope you understand what I want out. Why does not Chara say WE? I mean, no matter if Chara is angry or not, she has to consider you as a partner to look at the murder series, because YOU have finally killed everyone while CHARA has supported you (assuming she's evil). It would be a partnership but Chara says that you did everything.

Now, however, the question remains, why Chara puts the world on top in exchange for your soul. You might think of this as a second chance in which you can take the right path. And you can not say that she only does this to kill all the monsters over and over again. If you take two genocide routes in a row, Chara says she does not understand why they did it all again and she literally says that she can not understand your sick nature. But why not? Is not that what she wanted? No!
Let's take a step back: Chara asks you at the end of the genocide the famous question: Whether the world you have emptied now final

Also this. By the way it didn't long to find out.

Happy Mask Salesman の投稿を引用：

And yes, I know it's a bastard!

[Mask]

blowheaded の投稿を引用：

I going to use a program translate this.

Happy Mask Salesman の投稿を引用：

Okay, I have to admit that my lyrics were rather unreadable. First, I hope you speak German. Second, I can speak English but I'm too lazy to translate it all first and then make it sound like what I wanted to say.
But now to your criticism of my theory. You mentioned important points, but I think I can answer most well:

2. I just wanted to find one reason why Chara hates people, that's all!
3. Yes monsters attack you, due to the command of Asgore. Chara hates people because she was abused. She wants to resist this because of violence because she knows that talking in this case will not help. I mean, there are a lot of people, with whatever on Asriel! In that case, that would not be a bad deed but self-defense!
4. Here's just a theory why Chara flees to Mount Ebott.
5. That's actually the biggest sticking point of my theory. But pictures allow more interpretation space. I see you agree that Chara Frisk / Player is accompanying. I return to the behavior of Chara. In genocide, it does not say much and the only useful thing is the monster numbers. I would like to introduce another point here:

The color of the font in the text boxes: white is normal. Yellow usually means important information (for example, papyrus directions). And red evidently indicates emotional reactions. This can be seen in the beginning of the Pacifist, when Toriel talks about Asgore. His name appears red (he is her husband after all).
And with Chara you can see this red font color PERMANENT. For example, when you enter Asgore's house in genocide, comments are made in the nursery, such as "My picture." or "He still has this sweater." Emotional reactions are quite appropriate here, as Chara has finally lived with the Dreemuurs!
Let's stay with the red "Emotionsschrift". The number of monsters is also red! That means, if you agree with my theory, that Chara feels something in this situation for the monsters that are getting less and less. Would she want to see the monsters dead and only as an obstacle or something that just makes her stronger, why should she react emotionally?
Maybe because she probably thinks something like "Oh no, it will be less ..." You do not know how the player and Chara actually communicate. It does not mean that Chara must speak! Mere thoughts could be enough. Besides, you did not agree that Chara does not "incite" you in the Pacifist, but gives tips for interacting with monsters!
Short cut ...

And this.

Happy Mask Salesman の投稿を引用：

But since we are a fan of monster numbers, let's see who or how many killed Chara. The answer is two. Flowey and Asgore. And Asgore was actually badly injured by Chara himself. The final blow was exercised by Flowey. So Flowey is left, who just killed his own father.

But first I have to clarify once again the roles in Undertale: There you are, the player, which controls Frisk again. The player killed just about every monster in Genocid. He could have stopped at any time and was also actively encouraged by nobody according to the motto "Go on!".
Chara kills one person. And this is the pitiful, soulless remnant of her friend. I think Chara puts an end to Flowey's murder. After all, she knows that the player who has slaughtered almost every monster in the underground without a reason that can only be explained to her does not stop at a small flower.

But before I come to my final argument, I have to tackle your last criticisms:

6. Just because Chara is a child does not mean she can not knit. And the best argument for this is the exclusion process. Which of the members of the family would be judged to be the best Kanidat (unless you call your biological father Mister ...), according to the label of the pullover.

9. The Froggits have little to do with the actual theory. they serve only as proof that Chara accompanies Frisk.
10. Asriel went back with Chara! The coffin and the monsters prove this. And anyway, why would Chara have to accompany Frisk when her grave is elsewhere?

11. That's a fact! Play the game!

12. This statement is wrong. Asriel died in the throne room (where Flowey also emerged). In the true lab you learn how the golden flowers came underground and the monsters in front of Asgore's house (Pacifist) where Asriel died and fell to dust.

13. By soul I mean what's left of Chara. So something like a ghost.

14. Of course, the present becomes stronger! But Chara is still not actively influencing your actions! You still press voluntarily on "Fight".

15. "Free EXP": That's what Chara says when you attack Monster Kid (just before Undyne Fight).
And of course she repeats the opinion that the player of the world has. Or at least the one that Chara thinks you have that opinion of. From their point of view, the player is just someone who enjoys having no reason to slaughter people to become "more powerful". Since she can not do anything against you until the end she is otherwise indifferent ("...").
Chara gets stronger in her will to avenge the monsters and kill you. Or rather she becomes more determined! LOVE is the willingness to kill someone or how easy it is to kill someone. And in the status menu Frisks name is not displayed but Charas!

And now to point 16 ...
You think I have already given everything. HAHAHA! I'm just starting. And my main argument is the end of the Pacifist Run after you made the genocide !:

I have seen the complete dialogue with Chara at the end of the genocide with you: It becomes clear that she clearly states that she was only called back to life by YOU the player back. And by the murders you have committed. I notice a small detail. Chara calls the player partner. However, put in quotes. This looks rather sarcastic, as she accompanied you but never actively or at least inadvertently supported you. Even more interesting are the words that Chara expresses when you open the game again. After waiting for 10 minutes, she asks you what you are doing here. YOU have already destroyed everything.

I hope you understand what I want out. Why does not Chara say WE? I mean, no matter if Chara is angry or not, she has to consider you as a partner to look at the murder series, because YOU have finally killed everyone while CHARA has supported you (assuming she's evil). It would be a partnership but Chara says that you did everything.

Now, however, the question remains, why Chara puts the world on top in exchange for your soul. You might think of this as a second chance in which you can take the right path. And you can not say that she only does this to kill all the monsters over and over again. If you take two genocide routes in a row, Chara says she does not understand why they did it all again and she literally says that she can not understand your sick nature. But why not? Is not that what she wanted? No!
Let's take a step back: Chara asks you at the end of the genocide the famous question: Whether the world you have emptied now final

Also this. By the way it didn't long to find out.

Happy Mask Salesman の投稿を引用：

And yes, I know it's a bastard!

Thank you for this translation, but you forgot the half of the second part! But when you translate this part in this moment I didn´t say anything.

[rorgfist]

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that was brutal, no, i dont speak german, but i would be delighted to, so i will be willing to learn if you will be willing to teach.

Now, to the point.

2 We will never know for sure, but it could be, yeah.
I hope Toby Fox makes undertale 2

3 Killing (remember we arent talking about incapacitating) or even maiming is evil when you can simply drop the body where you wanted and flee.If you dont need to kill anybody, because you are more than powerful enough to incapacitate them or flee, but still choose to kill, you are evil. Remember, the "abominations" that are formed when monsters get a human soul is inmensely more powerful than humans, hell, fleeing probably would have been safer too.
Sorry, but i cant consider needless killing when you have 0 need to as self defense.

4 Cant be considered canon or used to justify canon actions tho.

5 You are using a false premise, and thus getting to a false conclusion.

You say that charas colours and little meaningful text can be interpreted in very different ways, and thats true until chara can actually act by themselves. When you have nothing but words, you can put whatever meaning you want to believe behind them.

At least, until they start to act by themselves.

Then, they quicky show their true colors and just for starters murder their own adoptive father, brother, you, and later the world. (remember that charas hit caused more damage than Asgore´s HP, and thus, chara killed Asgore, flowey simply quickened the process, but didnt killed him)

And dont even get me started with completing pacifist afterwards.

All theories and interpretations about chara being anything else than completely evil are instantly debunked in a single second.

As soon as chara can act (and thus, can be accurately judged) they are evil beyond evil.

And you can´t judge anyone by their words, specially when they are powerless/need you for something. Only in their actions when they have power.

Not to mention you can give your absolutely everything to try and make up for your mistakes, and even if you get a perfect happy ending afterwards, chara still goes on a murder rampage for no other reason that they desire it, and have the power to do it.

How do you justify that?

You had a nice theory there, but chara themselves, without my help, shatter it to pieces.

A single action is worth more than a thousand unconfirmed thoughts, words, or theories.

6 is unlikely, but utterly irrelevant to determine if chara is good or evil, so i wont keep debating this.

9 ok

10 If that is true, Asriel is extremely stupid. But they were just a terrified child after all, so i guess in enters in the realm of possibility. Still, irrelevant to determine is chara is good or evil.

11 I have played the game, completed it 7 times, and never, ever EVER saw that.

12 Hmmmmm true. Why is flowey and asriel always there then? it makes no sense.
Oh well.

13 ok

14 As i said, the fact that you too can be a terrible person doesnt make Chara any less evil.

15 Thats not true. It isnt stated anywhere. Chara say that the little, innocent and defenceless kid is free EXP, and thats all, it is true that the player is the one that press the fight button, without being influenced/controlled by chara, but it is no less true that chara says that without being influenced/controlled by frisk. Frisk have absolutely 0 control over chara, just like chara have absolutely 0 control over frisk unless frisk sells their soul.

Also, answer me just this one question. IF chara cares about the monsters and wants to avenge the monsters and thats why they kill you, then why does they kill all your friends when you get the happy ending?

You set things right, resurrect all the monsters chara supposedly cares about and give them freedom and happiness........ Then why chara murders them all afterwards? after getting happyness and freedom for everyone?[/h1][/b]


Answering your final point.

Yes, while it was chara and not you the one who destroyed completely the entire world, it was you the one that made it possible, bringing them back from the dead and empowering them.

As i said several times before, the fact that you are a genocidal monsters doesnt make chara any less evil.

Also, i ALREADY answered this.

ill quote myself

"16 Chara, as anyone with a bit of logic, cant understand why you gave your own soul, body and life (chara can take over your body afterwards as proven in post genocide pacifist) just for nothing, as you repeated exactly the same again.

And its totally logical of chara.

You gave everything you had, not to change anything, but to end up on the exact same spot."

It doesnt make any sense, so chara sincerely wonders why you did such a thing.

[Casual Amateur]

Happy Mask Salesman の投稿を引用：

Thank you for this translation, but you forgot the half of the second part! But when you translate this part in this moment I didn´t say anything.

I don't feel like translate all of it. I sure that rorgfist will find the program read rest of it any way.

[Mask]

rorgfist の投稿を引用：

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that was brutal, no, i dont speak german, but i would be delighted to, so i will be willing to learn if you will be willing to teach.

Now, to the point.

2 We will never know for sure, but it could be, yeah.
I hope Toby Fox makes undertale 2

3 Killing (remember we arent talking about incapacitating) or even maiming is evil when you can simply drop the body where you wanted and flee.If you dont need to kill anybody, because you are more than powerful enough to incapacitate them or flee, but still choose to kill, you are evil. Remember, the "abominations" that are formed when monsters get a human soul is inmensely more powerful than humans, hell, fleeing probably would have been safer too.
Sorry, but i cant consider needless killing when you have 0 need to as self defense.

4 Cant be considered canon or used to justify canon actions tho.

5 You are using a false premise, and thus getting to a false conclusion.

You say that charas colours and little meaningful text can be interpreted in very different ways, and thats true until chara can actually act by themselves. When you have nothing but words, you can put whatever meaning you want to believe behind them.

At least, until they start to act by themselves.

Then, they quicky show their true colors and just for starters murder their own adoptive father, brother, you, and later the world. (remember that charas hit caused more damage than Asgore´s HP, and thus, chara killed Asgore, flowey simply quickened the process, but didnt killed him)

And dont even get me started with completing pacifist afterwards.

All theories and interpretations about chara being anything else than completely evil are instantly debunked in a single second.

As soon as chara can act (and thus, can be accurately judged) they are evil beyond evil.

And you can´t judge anyone by their words, specially when they are powerless/need you for something. Only in their actions when they have power.

Not to mention you can give your absolutely everything to try and make up for your mistakes, and even if you get a perfect happy ending afterwards, chara still goes on a murder rampage for no other reason that they desire it, and have the power to do it.

How do you justify that?

You had a nice theory there, but chara themselves, without my help, shatter it to pieces.

A single action is worth more than a thousand unconfirmed thoughts, words, or theories.

6 is unlikely, but utterly irrelevant to determine if chara is good or evil, so i wont keep debating this.

9 ok

10 If that is true, Asriel is extremely stupid. But they were just a terrified child after all, so i guess in enters in the realm of possibility. Still, irrelevant to determine is chara is good or evil.

11 I have played the game, completed it 7 times, and never, ever EVER saw that.

12 Hmmmmm true. Why is flowey and asriel always there then? it makes no sense.
Oh well.

13 ok

14 As i said, the fact that you too can be a terrible person doesnt make Chara any less evil.

15 Thats not true. It isnt stated anywhere. Chara say that the little, innocent and defenceless kid is free EXP, and thats all, it is true that the player is the one that press the fight button, without being influenced/controlled by chara, but it is no less true that chara says that without being influenced/controlled by frisk. Frisk have absolutely 0 control over chara, just like chara have absolutely 0 control over frisk unless frisk sells their soul.

Also, answer me just this one question. IF chara cares about the monsters and wants to avenge the monsters and thats why they kill you, then why does they kill all your friends when you get the happy ending?

You set things right, resurrect all the monsters chara supposedly cares about and give them freedom and happiness........ Then why chara murders them all afterwards? after getting happyness and freedom for everyone?[/h1][/b]


Answering your final point.

Yes, while it was chara and not you the one who destroyed completely the entire world, it was you the one that made it possible, bringing them back from the dead and empowering them.

As i said several times before, the fact that you are a genocidal monsters doesnt make chara any less evil.

Also, i ALREADY answered this.

ill quote myself

"16 Chara, as anyone with a bit of logic, cant understand why you gave your own soul, body and life (chara can take over your body afterwards as proven in post genocide pacifist) just for nothing, as you repeated exactly the same again.

And its totally logical of chara.

You gave everything you had, not to change anything, but to end up on the exact same spot."

It doesnt make any sense, so chara sincerely wonders why you did such a thing. [/quote]So das ist jetzt wahrscheinlich meine Finale Antwort zu dieser Diskussion:

3. Das ist tatsächlich teilweise ein Logikproblem seitens des Spiels. Wenn Asriel mächtig genug ist um alle Bewohner des Dorfes mit einem Schlag zu vernichten, wieso kann man ihn dann so leicht lebensbedrohlich verletzen mit gewöhnlichen Waffen (ich geh mal davon aus das die Dorfbewohner keine Magie beherrschten).
4. Es ist immer noch eine Theorie und kann deswegen auch nicht Canon sein. Den Punkt beziehe ich gleich noch mal ein.
5. Allgemein erkläre ich den Nutzen der verschiedenen Schriftfarben im Spiel (und man kann dies eigentlich immer nachweisen, egal welche Farbe die Schrift hat).
6. Warum sollte jemand der abgrundtief böse ist seine Zeit damit verschwenden einen Pulli für seinen Adopivvater zu stricken? Das würde Chara doch nur von ihrem Plan abhalten. Sowieso würde ich mich fragen warum Chara nicht gleich alle Monster getötet hat. Zum einen hatten die Monster nicht die Order Menschen zu bekämpfen und an sich sind sie ja schwächer als Menschen. Und in der Büchererei in Snowdin wird eindeutig erklärt, dass ein Mensch mit der Ambition zu töten fähig wäre qusi den ganzen Untergrund auszulöschen (wobei dies auch nur funktioniert wenn Chara irrational handelt, aber da sie ein Kind ist...).
10+ Zu den Punkten die als irrelevant bezeichnest. Diese sind wichtig um die Grundbedingungen meiner Theorie festzulegen.
11. Du bist offenbar blind. Warum sollte ich mir den Sargraum ausdenken? Halb YouTube und ich haben diesen Raum gesehen. Geh vom Tor zum Thronraum aus nach links bis du eine Treppe siehst! Verdammt noch mal!
14. Du greifst das falsch auf! Ich will nur eine andere Möglichkeit aufstellen warum Chara "aktiver" wird.
15. Frisk steht gar nicht im Vordergrund. Der Spieler beeinflusst Charas Verhalten (was eigentlich offensichtlich ist).

Oh, fett unterstrichen? Ich mag das!

1. Du überliest völlig meine Argumentation darüber. Lies nochmal, aber genau (and use Pons Translate, thats better!)
2. Immer noch: Chara hat zwei Personen getötet (mit Floweys eher unwichtiger Hilfe). Den Rest hast du gemacht. Es ist in dem Fall nicht wichtig wie viele getötet wurden. Da hast du recht. aber dazu komme ich noch. Also setz dich hin und hör zu!
3. Ich bin auch auf dieses Argument eingegangen. Ich meine daraus besteht die Hälfte meiner Theorie (Hinweis: Die Übersetzung ist nicht vollständig). Also finde Argumente die gegen diesen Teil sprechen. Das Problem ist das meine Theorie so aufgebaut ist, dass vorher genannte Teile erst später genauer gestützt werden. Man kann diese Theorie nicht Satz für Satz auseinander nehmen. Man muss erst alles vollständig lesen um meine Argumentation vollständig zu verstehen!
Mir fällt außerdem auf das du ohne Kompromiss davon ausgehst das Chara böse ist. Ich nehme teilweise eine neutrale Haltung ein und hinterfrage erst die Argumente, die für "Chara-ist-böse" sprechen.
Ich bin auf jeden deiner Kritikpunkte eingegangen und vom Spiel selbst gebrachte Indizien vorgelegt.
Auch habe ich bereits gesagt das ein Großteil deiner anfänglichen Argumente ebenfalls nicht, als Canon gewertet werden können, da du das Wiki dazu heranziehst. Wikis werden von Fans erstellt. Und das einzige was bei Spielen als Canon gewertet werden kann, ist das was entweder direkt vom Spiel deutlich gesagt wird oder vom Entwickler selbst kommt (in unserem Fall Toby Fox).

So jetzt zurück zum 2. Punkt:

Das Grundkonzept meiner Theorie ist es NICHT zu beweisen, dass Chara an sich gut oder böse im Fall ihrer TATEN. Ich will beweisen das Chara und auch kein anderer Charakter in Undertale schlichtweg "BÖSE" ist.
Wenn man nähmlich nach deinem Maßstab ausgeht "Töten ist böse. Jemand der tötet ist böse.", könnte man unweigerlich behaupten, dass jeder einzelne Charakter in Undertale böse ist (außer der nervige Hund...?). Jedes Monster versucht dich zu töten. Standardmonster, weil sie einfach frei sein wollen und ihnen jedes Mittel dazu recht ist.
Die Hauptmonster sind sogar noch schlimmer:
Asgore hat nachweislich schon viele der bisher gefallenen Kinder auf dem Gewissen.
Sans sagt selber im MTT-Resort, dass er dich, wenn er Toriel nicht das Versprechen gegeben hätte, du schon längst tot wärst.
Alphys hat niemanden direkt getötet. Hat allerdings sehr fragwürdige Experimente mit Monsterleichen durchgeführt und FLOWEY erschaffen.
Mettaton will an die Oberfäche um ein Star zu sein. Und er selbst sagt, dass es egal wäre wenn dafür ein bisschen Blut vergossen wird.
Undyne hasst jeden Menschen. Es ist egal ob du was mit der Versieglung zu tun hattest (und vermutlich bereits getötet).
Papyrus fragt nicht einmal was mit den Menschen passiert wenn er einen ins Schloss bringen würde (bestenfalls kann man das als Behilfe zum Mord zählen.
Muffet will dich aufressen lassen, nur weil du angeblich nicht gespendet hast!

Aber keiner von diesen Charakteren ist nicht der Antagonist. Und warum? Weil du sie (gut) beeinflussen kannst und dann diese Monster sogar deine Freunde werden! Und dasselbe könnte man auch über Chara sagen, auch wenn ihre Situation wesentlich komplizierter ist.
Wenn du den letzten Teil meiner Theorie gelesen hast, kannst vielleicht verstehen das ich in Chara eine sehr interessante Rolle zugedacht habe.

Chara ist meiner Theorie nach ein Test oder vielmehr ein Richter. Sie zerstört die Welt. Nun du hast alles Leben darin ausradiert, also welchen Wert hat diese Welt noch?

Die Rolle Antagonist und Protagonist ist in Undertale relativ. DU kannst der Protagonist sein und DU kannst der Antagonist sein. Dies ist die Grundprämisse dieses Spiels. Es würde keinen Sinn ergeben wenn dieses Spiel einen anderen Antagonist hätte.

Meine Theorie ist nicht KLAR nachweisbar. Vieles basiert auf der Interpretation von Details. Aber das selbe gilt auch für die Theorie "Chara-ist-böse". Sie ist nicht KLAR nachweisbar.

Und das ist das Grundkonzept von jeder Theorie. Man kann es nicht konkret beweisen. Deswegen ist es kein Fakt sondern bleibt eine Theorie. Das Atomgesetz ist z.B. auch nur eine Theorie. Man kann momentan nicht nachweisen das Atome wirklich rund oder Atome wirklich so funktionieren wie man es behauptet. Das liegt daran, weil man es nicht sehen kann.

Das selbe Problem gilt für diese Theorie: Solange nicht klar (vielleicht Undertale 2) ausgesagt wird, wie die Rollen in diesem Spiel verteilt sind, bleiben beide Behauptungen nur Theorien.

Noch komplezierter wird diese Theorie da sich bei "Gut" und "Böse" um eine moralische Frage handelt. Und Undertale will meiner Theorie und meiner Annahme aussagen, dass die Welt sich nicht in schwarz und weiß unterteilt. Die Welt ist grau.

Und solange Toby Fox oder Undertale 2, etwas anderes behauptet, steht es Patt zwischen uns. Ich glaube ich jetzt fertig...

[Mask]

Somehow the textformatation is broken.

[rorgfist]

i cant understand german, i was asking in case you knew spanish or euskera, but if you only know english and german, ill choose english

[Mask]

First part:
3. This is actually partly a logic problem on the part of the game. If Asriel is powerful enough to destroy all the villagers in one fell swoop, then why can you harm him so easily with life-threatening weapons (I assume the villagers did not master magic).
4. It is still a theory and therefore can not be Canon. I refer to the point again.
5. Generally, I explain the usefulness of the various font colors in the game (and you can always prove this, no matter what color the font has).
6. Why would someone profoundly evil spend their time knitting a sweater for his adopv father? That would only keep Chara from her plan. Anyway, I would ask why Chara did not kill all the monsters right away. On the one hand, the monsters did not have the order to fight humans and in themselves they are weaker than humans. And in the bookstore in Snowdin it is clearly stated that a person with the ambition to kill qusi would be able to wipe out the whole underground (and this only works if Chara acts irrationally, but since she is a child ...).
10+ The points that are considered irrelevant. These are important to determine the basic conditions of my theory.
11. You are obviously blind. Why should I think of the coffin room? Half YouTube and I have seen this room. Go to the left from the gate to the throne room until you see a staircase! Bloody hell!
14. You take this wrong! I just want to put another way why Chara becomes "more active".
15. Frisk is not in the foreground. The player influences Chara's behavior (which is obvious).

Oh, underlined in bold? I like this!

1. You completely read my argument about it. Read again, but exactly (and use Pons Translate, that's better!)
2. Still: Chara killed two people (with Flowey's rather unimportant help). The rest you did. It does not matter in the case how many were killed. You're right. but I'll come to that. So sit down and listen!
3. I also responded to this argument. I think that is half of my theory (Note: the translation is not complete). So find arguments that speak against this part. The problem is that my theory is so constructed that parts mentioned earlier will be supported later. One can not disassemble this theory, sentence by sentence. You have to read everything first to fully understand my reasoning!
I also notice that you go without compromise that Chara is evil. In part, I take a neutral stance and question the arguments that speak for "chara-is-evil".
I have responded to each of your criticisms and presented by the game itself brought evidence.
Also, I've already said that most of your initial arguments also do not qualify as Canon because you're attracted to the wiki. Wikis are created by fans. And the only thing that can be considered as a Canon game is that which is either stated directly from the game or comes from the developer himself (in our case, Toby Fox).

[Mask]

So now back to the second point:

The basic concept of my theory is NOT to prove that Chara in itself is good or evil in the case of their ACT. I want to prove that Chara and no other character in Undertale is simply "EVIL".
In fact, assuming that "killing is evil, someone who kills is evil.", One could inevitably claim that every single character in Undertale is evil (except the annoying dog ...?). Every monster is trying to kill you. Standard monsters because they just want to be free and they have every right to do so.
The main monsters are even worse:
Asgore has proven to have already killed many of the children that have fallen so far.
Sans himself says at MTT Resort that if he had not made the promise to Toriel, he would have you dead long ago.
Alphys did not kill anyone directly. Has, however, done very questionable experiments with monster corpses and created FLOWEY.
Mettaton wants to be on the surface to be a star. And he himself says that it would not matter if a little blood is shed for it.
Undyne hates every human being. It does not matter if you had something to do with the seal (and probably already killed).
Papyrus does not even ask what happens to people if he brings you into the castle (at best, you can count that as an aid to murder.
Muffet wants you to be stopped, just because you have not supposedly donated!

But none of these characters is not the antagonist. And why? Because you can influence them (well) and then these monsters even become your friends! And the same could be said about Chara, even if her situation is much more complicated.
If you have read the last part of my theory, you may be able to understand that I have a very interesting role in Chara.

Chara is in my theory a test or rather a judge. It destroys the world. Now you have erased all life in it, so what is the value of this world?

The role of antagonist and protagonist is relative in Undertale. YOU can be the protagonist and YOU can be the antagonist. This is the basic premise of this game. It would not make sense if this game had a different antagonist.

My theory is not clear. Much is based on the interpretation of details. But the same applies to the theory "Chara-is-evil". It is not clearly detectable.

And that is the basic concept of every theory. You can not prove it concretely. That's why it's not a fact but remains a theory. The Atomic Law is e.g. even just a theory. At the moment you can not prove that the atoms are really round or that atoms really work as you say. That's because you can not see it.

The same problem applies to this theory: Unless it is stated clearly (perhaps Undertale 2) how the roles are distributed in this game, both assertions remain only theories.

Even more complex is this theory because "good" and "evil" is a moral issue. And Undertale wants to testify to my theory and my assumption that the world is not divided into black and white. The world is gray.

And as long as Toby Fox or Undertale 2, says something else, stands between us. I think I finished now ...

[Mask]

And last single question: What the ♥♥♥♥ is euskera???

[rorgfist]

3 as we know for sure and without doubt (directly stated in game) a game is a creature of incredible power, far more powerful than humans.
Still they arent gods, not unless they get 7 souls.
Powerful, not just strong, so that means stronger, faster and more durable.
Like a bear. Bears are stronger and tougher than humans, and also considerably faster, they can outrun a bike unless its downhill or hardcore athlete.

So.... can a bear kill a human with a shovel or a pitchfork?
Yeah..... and 2, and 3......

Can a bear kill an entire village attacking him with shovels, torches and pichforks?
Hell no.

Even if he could outrun them before the invention of motor vehicles.

Nuff said.

4 if isnt canon and impossible to confirm, is an invalid point. Refer to it as much as you like, it has no validity at all and i wont adress it again.

5 As i said, the true feelings and thoughts behind Charas words could be debated deeply if chara didnt get to act, because we can put the emotions desires and thoughts that are more convenient to our theories behind chara´s words....... but not behind their actions.

An action is worth more than a thousand words, you can say that Chara didnt like when you killed monsters when the first thing they do is kill innocent monsters themselves for no reason at pacifist, nor you can say they arent completely evil when they laugh and smile when killing innocents (post-pacifist photo)

The colors, possible emotions and how you choose to interpret them cant gainsay Charas actions.

6 Probably because they couldnt. Have you seen the cinematic? they are REALLY small, asriel is a tiny little boy and chara is at the same height, they could very well be 4-6 years old.

When you cant even run and move around properly, you arent precisely in fighting shape, even if monsters are weaker than humans, they could very well be stronger than someone who is developing his body still. Frisk is almost certainly a child, but is a child that can run, climb, go upstairs and downstairs, push objects and exercise in general for hours without problem, a monster could very well be stronger than a 4 years old, but weaker than a 12 years old human, for example.

Not to mention they were supervised constantly by 2 boss monsters, the strongest breed of monsters of them all, at once, so even if they were showing signs of being a psycho (like the creepy smile asriel told us) maybe they deemed unwise to fight both boss monsters at once at such a young age, when they lack not only strength and skill, but also stamina.

10+ Your theory are based in non-canon thoughts, non-canon emotions, non-canon intentions and non-canon motivations, and it directly contradicts canon actions in several endings.

IT shouldnt be hard to draw a conclusion.

11 I have been in that room, i have checked that coffin, and cant remember the word Chara, still, they arent going to be a better person ro a worst person just for having a coffin, lets focus.

15 The player is as completely unable to influence chara as chara is completely unable to influence the player, neither of them can force the other to think, speak or act in any particular way, they are both completely free. If you think otherwise, dont just tell, prove it.

Yup! Underlined in bold

1 no i didnt, i read a lot of suppositions, educated guesses and theories that could very well be true if, when chara breakes free, decided to simply live their live or enjoy the happy ending you give your soul to get in post-genocide pacifist.

But they didnt. Then, hard facts comes into play, and all suppositions, theories and guesses and possible justifications break down like a cardboard box under heavy rain.

2 Think again. In post-genocide pacifist they kill at a bare minimun sans, papyrus, asgore, toriel, alphys and undyne. thats more than 2

3 Your reasoning is great, really, and it could totally justify chara being good up until they get free, despite the looks.

But nothing you said ever came close to justify what they do when free. Absolutely nothing, and i have read you several times.

I have no problem in sticking 100% to the canon, and the canon is: as soon as chara can act by themselves, they kill asgore, asriel, the world, scam you out of your soul, get free to the human world, and go on a genocidal rampage.

Yet here you are, trying to convince me that isnt evil.









Ok, now to the second point.


OH really? can you tell me a character that kills their close friends and family in the entire game besides chara?

No?

Can you tell me a character that actually destroys the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ world and use it as a hostage to steal a kids soul for personal gain?

No?

And i could keep on.
Monsters try to fight to regain the freedom that was unjustly take from them.
That is noble
Chara kills friends and family for fun.

Trying to compare both is terribly damaging for your credibility

Asgore does that to give the monsterkind hope to keep going, and is willing to sacrifice to make them free, he isnt happy about it, in fact, he suffers terribly and even apologize before the fight. That isnt cruel, is an act of sacrifice. His wife, his life, his ideals...... he gave everything for their people, and then some.

Sans is a sentry, sentries and guards have to kill or capture humans to get the 7 souls they need, again not because they are evil, but because they want to be free again.


Mettaton is, indeed, evil, anyone willing to kill just for personal gain, fame and glory, is evil.
Still not as evil as chara, but evil nonetheless.

Undyne hatred is toward their captors, she is a true heroine after all. Like in every movie, book or video game, a hero that rise from a folk that were crushed, opressed and caged like animals and risk his/her own life to make their people free again is quite the opposite of evil.

Papyrus...... wait, are you really trying to get papyrus to pass as evil?
Like, really?
Am i even getting this right?
Is he getting compared to chara?

Im going to do you a favor and i will pretend i never read that.

Fake, muffet dont attack you for that.

Muffet wants you stopped, as she confess, because someone told her you hated spiders and tortured and killed spiders for fun, plucking their legs out and crushing them later.

If you eat a spider donut before even the first attack, you prove you were actually nice to spiders and she apologizes and let you go without even turning you purple. and as soon as the spiders telegraph ehr to tell ehr you arent a spider killed she apologizes and lets you go.

Muffet never NEVER attacks you for somethign so silly. Im starting to think you are lying deliberately.


Ill quote you now:

But none of these characters is not the antagonist. And why? Because you can influence them (well) and then these monsters even become your friends! And the same could be said about Chara, even if her situation is much more complicated.

No, not at all. You cant befriend chara, you cant make chara happy, you cant spare or be spared by chara, etc......even if you become the nicest person that ever existed, if chara can act (you sold chara your soul previously) they go on a murder spree with a smile on their faces.

So no, thats not even fake, thats a deliberate lie.

Chara is in my theory a test or rather a judge. It destroys the world. Now you have erased all life in it, so what is the value of this world?

Then you restart, free the monsters, makes everyone happy, and then chara starts killing innocents out of the blue with no justification and obvious happiness about it.....

Can you explain what kind of judge would do that?

Answer this, its important.


My theory is not clear. Much is based on the interpretation of details. But the same applies to the theory "Chara-is-evil". It is not clearly detectable. And that is the basic concept of every theory. You can not prove it concretely. That's why it's not a fact but remains a theory.

Your theory is "not clear" to say the least, and is based on the interpretation of details that could very well not be true.

My theory can be irrefutably proven opening youtube, is based in hard facts and undeniable and undebatable facts, like chara killing innocents, which is completely canon, completely detectable and completely undeniable.

Your theory is a theory, my proven canon fact is a proven canon fact.

Do not try to put them on the same level, they arent.

We do not need undertale 2 to see and judge Charas actions, Chara does act in undertale 1.


And no, you didnt finished, you didnt even STARTED to answer why Chara kills all those innocents after you get the post-genocide pacifist ending.

Why she laughs in a distorted and evil way when everything so far was perfectly happy since the last reset, etc.

Not even once, you carefully avoided the question, so ill quote it again.....




Also, answer me just this one question. IF chara cares about the monsters and wants to avenge the monsters and thats why they kill you, then why does they kill all your friends when you get the happy ending?

You set things right, resurrect all the monsters chara supposedly cares about and give them freedom and happiness........ Then why chara murders them all afterwards? after getting happyness and freedom for everyone?

And this time, answer it, please.