Asgore is Underrated as Hell (and most of the main cast are kind of jerks)

[Dr_Seuss]

As a fan who's grown to develop lot of criticisms towards the game since its debut, out of all the characters, Asgore is one I still manage to love despite his flaws.

One of the criticisms I have with Undertale is that most of the horrible things the monsters do is just glossed over and not called out on.

- Toriel tries to force Frisk to stay with her by destroying the Ruin's exit, and then forces Frisk to fight her as a way of "protecting" them. She also completely avoids contact with Frisk until the very end of the game.
- Sans admits that he would have killed you had he not made that promise to Toriel, and yet he preaches to you about the importance of morality when he's no better. He also willingly lets you kill everyone because he's too depressed to try and stop you. It's only until you're threatening to destroy the entire world that he gets off his lazy ♥♥♥ and fights. He doesn't keep Frisk safe, he doesn't stop them when they're murdering monsters, he just gives up. And in the genocide route, he whines about how they could've been friends, when he's the one who consciously chose to give up instead of trying to do anything. Sans, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Make up your mind, dude.
- Papyrus really isn't all that bad. He genuinely cares about Frisk, and whenever you're subjected to potentially life-threatening puzzles, it doesn't come off as though it's his intention to hurt you. Though, he still fights Frisk and knocks them out if they fail to defeat him. And he never apologizes for it, either.
- Undyne actively tries to murder Frisk, no matter what route you're on. She's also completely on-board with taking Frisk's soul so that Asgore can break the barrier and destroy humanity. The only reason why you're able to befriend her is because she's challenged to make friends with you as a form of revenge. Hell, she doesn't even feel grateful that you saved Monster Kid and mocks you for being nice to other monsters. And even if you kill one single monster after befriending her, she hates your guts entirely, even though it could've very well been an accident or self-defense.
- Alphys actively puts you in danger with Mettaton's help just so that she can pretend to save you and make herself feel helpful. She's also responsible for the creation of the amalgamations. She doesn't even feel guilty about her experiments and what happened to the monsters. She's only concerned about herself and her low self-esteem because her experiment failed. And instead of the amalgamates' families being rightfully horrified and furious with her, they just wave it off. Alphys doesn't receive any consequences at all for what she did other than being fired by Toriel, which is the equivalent of a slap on the wrist. Seriously, she's the only character I completely despise out of the entire cast.
- Mettaton's a selfish prick that wants to murder Frisk just so then he can take their soul and become a star on the surface. Not much else I can say other than that.
- Flowey's a complete psychopath, but at least he's willing to admit it.

Don't misunderstand me. I actually like that the characters are very flawed, and I think Toby missed out on a big opportunity to explore these flaws. The problem is that they're never called out on these things and they never apologize for what they did. You're expected to keep yourself from fighting against the creatures that are actively trying to kill you and you're demonized if you do kill anyone, but the majority of the monsters basically get off scott-free for murdering six kids and trying to murder you. And yeah, you can understand their motives behind why they want to kill Frisk, but that doesn't justify what they're doing. The game, nor the characters, ever acknowledge their wrongdoings.

Well, all except for one character.

That's right, it's Asgore.

Asgore's the only character out of the main cast that acknowledges what he did was wrong, which made me sympathize with him more than I ever could with any of the other characters. Asgore explains why he did what he did (killing the six fallen humans and waging war against humanity), but he never uses it as an excuse. And after you've fought him, he willingly gives up his soul so that Frisk can cross the barrier. Yes, Asgore's done a lot of bad ♥♥♥♥, but he also knows he's done bad ♥♥♥♥ and feels genuine guilt and shame over it.

Seriously, out of all the characters that got the most hate, it was Asgore? And Sans was the one that took over the fandom? The system's rigged, my lads.

Anyways, hope you enjoyed my ranting and rambling. Been wanting to get this off my chest for a while.

Also, feel free to disagree with me, too, you know.

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

I also don't really like the fact that Toriel receives no consequences for running away from her duty as Queen. As long as you don't kill too many people, the monsters just make her Queen again. What makes it worse is that she has been gone for possibly hundreds of years, and no one knows who she is.

[Dr_Seuss]

Originally posted by (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

I also don't really like the fact that Toriel receives no consequences for running away from her duty as Queen. As long as you don't kill too many people, the monsters just make her Queen again. What makes it worse is that she has been gone for possibly hundreds of years, and no one knows who she is.

Yeah, that's something I forgot to mention in this post. I get that she felt grief over Asriel and Chara, but she doesn't even put in the effort to try and reason with Asgore and instead runs away from her duties.

[Soundless1997]

Sans is never the first thing I think about when it comes to Undertale.

Whenever I think about Undertale, I think about how on the true pacifist route, Frisk is really capable of literally forgiving everybody no matter how much pain and suffering was inflicted on them. It makes me wish we had more people that way in real life.

[Dr_Seuss]

Originally posted by Soundless1997:

Sans is never the first thing I think about when it comes to Undertale.

Whenever I think about Undertale, I think about how on the true pacifist route, Frisk is really capable of literally forgiving everybody no matter how much pain and suffering was inflicted on them. It makes me wish we had more people that way in real life.

Pacifist Frisk is honestly a freaking trooper for going through so much suffering and forgiving the people they have the right to completely hate. The monsters shove so much responsibility on Frisk because of their own self pity. Pacifist Frisk deserves... so much better.

[Nitrosonic]

Originally posted by ElateKitty:

Asgore is underrated to hell (and most the for main cast am kind for jerks)

To that fan that person grow to development lot for criticisms the towards game since its debut, outward for the everyone characters, asgore is individual myself still managed to loved despite he is a flaws.

individual the for criticisms myself take taking undertale is this most the for horribrue the things monsters will is only glossed over and don't call outward in.

- toriel tries to force frisk to stay taking woman of by the destroying ruin exit, and then forces frisk to fought woman of to that way for "protecting" them. Herself also completely avoids contact taking frisk the until very ended the for game.
- sans admits this himself will take killed you are a having himself don't make this promise to toriel, and yet himself preaches to you are the around importance for morality what time himself don't better. Himself also willingly lets you are a kill everyone due to himself to depressing to tried and stopped you are. It only until you are're threatened to the destruction entire world this himself gets off he is a lazy ass and fights. Himself doese kept frisk safe, himself doese stopped them what time those're murdering monsters, himself only gives upon. And the on genocide route, himself whines around with a method those can've achieved friends, what time the himself individual that person consciously choose to given upon instead for trying to will anything. Sans, you are a with able to't take yours cake and eaten it to. Create upon yours mind, dude.
- papyrus exceedingly ise everyone this badly. Himself genuinely cares around frisk, and when you are're subjected to potentially life-threatening puzzles, it doese enter off to though it he is a intent to hurt you are. Though, himself still fights frisk and knock them outward conditionally to those fail to defeat himself. And himself always only apologizes of it, either.
- undyne act tries to murder frisk, don't matter to what route you are're in. Herself also completely on-board taking taking frisk soul then this asgore with able to the broke barrier and destruction humanity. The only reason why are you are're abrue to befriend woman of is due to herself challenging to create friends taking you are a to that form for revenge. Hell, herself doese even felt grateful this you are a save monster kid and mock you are a of being nice to other monsters. And even conditionally to you are a kill individual single monster after befriending woman of, herself hates yours guts entirely, even though it can've very good achieved an accident or self-defense.
- alphys act puts you are a on dangerous taking mettaton helped only then this herself with able to pretend to saved you are and create herself felt helpful. Herself also responsibrue the of creative the for amalgamations. Herself doese even felt guilty around woman of experiments and to what happen the to monsters. Herself only concerned around herself and woman of low self-esteem due to woman of experiment failed. And instead the for amalgamates' families being rightfully horrified and furious taking woman of, those only wave it off. Alphys doese received anytime consequences upon everyone of to what herself have other than being fired by toriel, which the is equivalent for that slap the in wrist. Seriously, the herself only character myself completely despise outward the for entire cast.
- mettaton that selfish prick this wants to murder frisk only then then himself with able to to take their soul and became that star the in surface. Don't highly else myself with able to said other than this.
- flowey that completed psychopath, prevent upon least himself willing to admit it.

no misunderstand my. Myself actually appreciation the this characters am very flawed, and myself intelligent toby miss outward in that more than opportunity to exploring these flaws. The problem is this those're always only call outward in these things and those always only apologize of to what those have. You are're expectedly to kept yourself originate fighting the against creatures this am act trying to kill you are and you are're demonized conditionally to you are a will kill anyone, the prevent majority the for monsters basically have off scott-free of murdering six kids and trying to murder you are. And yes, you are a with able to understood their motives behind why are those in need of to kill frisk, prevent this doese justify to what those're doing. The game, the nor characters, ever acknowledge their wrongdoings.

good, everyone except of individual character.

this right, it asgore.

the asgore only character outward the for main cast this acknowledges to what himself have were wrong, which make my sympathize taking himself more than myself ever can taking anytime the for other characters. Asgore explains why are himself have to what himself have the (killing six fall humans and waging war against humanity), prevent himself always only uses it to an excused. And after you are've fight himself, himself willingly gives upon he is a soul then this frisk with able to the crossed barrier. Yes, asgore do that lot for badly ♥♥♥♥, prevent himself also knows himself do badly ♥♥♥♥ and feels genuine guilt and shame over it.

seriously, outward for the everyone characters this keep mostly hated, it were asgore? and sans the were individual this take the over fandom? the system rigged, I lads.

anyways, hope you are a enjoy I ranting and rambling. Achieved wanting to have that off I chest of that while.

also, felt free to disagreed taking my, to, you are a understand

I don't have any idea of what you're saying.

[sumwun]

Originally posted by ElateKitty:

Asgore's the only character out of the main cast that acknowledges what he did was wrong, which made me sympathize with him more than I ever could with any of the other characters. Asgore explains why he did what he did (killing the six fallen humans and waging war against humanity), but he never uses it as an excuse. And after you've fought him, he willingly gives up his soul so that Frisk can cross the barrier. Yes, Asgore's done a lot of bad ♥♥♥♥, but he also knows he's done bad ♥♥♥♥ and feels genuine guilt and shame over it.

I liked Asgore for the same reason you do, but I don't like how he appears for only a few short scenes at the end of the story. You never get to know him better over time the same way you do with Sans, Undyne, and Alphys (who also apologizes, like Asgore). Out of the 6 monsters that support you when Flowey attacks, Asgore has the single most boring house.

Seriously, out of all the characters that got the most hate, it was Asgore? And Sans was the one that took over the fandom? The system's rigged, my lads.

Originally posted by Soundless1997:

Sans is never the first thing I think about when it comes to Undertale.

Even though I usually go against bandwagons and trends, I still like Sans better than the other characters. Sans is the reminder that Undertale is most importantly a game, and the stuff you do in the game doesn't really matter. You're not sparing monsters because you're morally obligated to do it. You play because it's fun. Out of all the characters, are any of them better than Sans at having fun?

Frisk is really capable of literally forgiving everybody no matter how much pain and suffering was inflicted on them. It makes me wish we had more people that way in real life.

Easier said than done. Unlike Frisk, real people need to drink water and eat food to stay alive. If you woke up one day and found that all your food and water was stolen, would you forgive the thief?

[Dr_Seuss]

Originally posted by Kaseypromario21:

Originally posted by ElateKitty:

Asgore is underrated to hell (and most the for main cast am kind for jerks)

To that fan that person grow to development lot for criticisms the towards game since its debut, outward for the everyone characters, asgore is individual myself still managed to loved despite he is a flaws.

individual the for criticisms myself take taking undertale is this most the for horribrue the things monsters will is only glossed over and don't call outward in.

- toriel tries to force frisk to stay taking woman of by the destroying ruin exit, and then forces frisk to fought woman of to that way for "protecting" them. Herself also completely avoids contact taking frisk the until very ended the for game.
- sans admits this himself will take killed you are a having himself don't make this promise to toriel, and yet himself preaches to you are the around importance for morality what time himself don't better. Himself also willingly lets you are a kill everyone due to himself to depressing to tried and stopped you are. It only until you are're threatened to the destruction entire world this himself gets off he is a lazy ass and fights. Himself doese kept frisk safe, himself doese stopped them what time those're murdering monsters, himself only gives upon. And the on genocide route, himself whines around with a method those can've achieved friends, what time the himself individual that person consciously choose to given upon instead for trying to will anything. Sans, you are a with able to't take yours cake and eaten it to. Create upon yours mind, dude.
- papyrus exceedingly ise everyone this badly. Himself genuinely cares around frisk, and when you are're subjected to potentially life-threatening puzzles, it doese enter off to though it he is a intent to hurt you are. Though, himself still fights frisk and knock them outward conditionally to those fail to defeat himself. And himself always only apologizes of it, either.
- undyne act tries to murder frisk, don't matter to what route you are're in. Herself also completely on-board taking taking frisk soul then this asgore with able to the broke barrier and destruction humanity. The only reason why are you are're abrue to befriend woman of is due to herself challenging to create friends taking you are a to that form for revenge. Hell, herself doese even felt grateful this you are a save monster kid and mock you are a of being nice to other monsters. And even conditionally to you are a kill individual single monster after befriending woman of, herself hates yours guts entirely, even though it can've very good achieved an accident or self-defense.
- alphys act puts you are a on dangerous taking mettaton helped only then this herself with able to pretend to saved you are and create herself felt helpful. Herself also responsibrue the of creative the for amalgamations. Herself doese even felt guilty around woman of experiments and to what happen the to monsters. Herself only concerned around herself and woman of low self-esteem due to woman of experiment failed. And instead the for amalgamates' families being rightfully horrified and furious taking woman of, those only wave it off. Alphys doese received anytime consequences upon everyone of to what herself have other than being fired by toriel, which the is equivalent for that slap the in wrist. Seriously, the herself only character myself completely despise outward the for entire cast.
- mettaton that selfish prick this wants to murder frisk only then then himself with able to to take their soul and became that star the in surface. Don't highly else myself with able to said other than this.
- flowey that completed psychopath, prevent upon least himself willing to admit it.

no misunderstand my. Myself actually appreciation the this characters am very flawed, and myself intelligent toby miss outward in that more than opportunity to exploring these flaws. The problem is this those're always only call outward in these things and those always only apologize of to what those have. You are're expectedly to kept yourself originate fighting the against creatures this am act trying to kill you are and you are're demonized conditionally to you are a will kill anyone, the prevent majority the for monsters basically have off scott-free of murdering six kids and trying to murder you are. And yes, you are a with able to understood their motives behind why are those in need of to kill frisk, prevent this doese justify to what those're doing. The game, the nor characters, ever acknowledge their wrongdoings.

good, everyone except of individual character.

this right, it asgore.

the asgore only character outward the for main cast this acknowledges to what himself have were wrong, which make my sympathize taking himself more than myself ever can taking anytime the for other characters. Asgore explains why are himself have to what himself have the (killing six fall humans and waging war against humanity), prevent himself always only uses it to an excused. And after you are've fight himself, himself willingly gives upon he is a soul then this frisk with able to the crossed barrier. Yes, asgore do that lot for badly ♥♥♥♥, prevent himself also knows himself do badly ♥♥♥♥ and feels genuine guilt and shame over it.

seriously, outward for the everyone characters this keep mostly hated, it were asgore? and sans the were individual this take the over fandom? the system rigged, I lads.

anyways, hope you are a enjoy I ranting and rambling. Achieved wanting to have that off I chest of that while.

also, felt free to disagreed taking my, to, you are a understand

I don't have any idea of what you're saying.

Did you happen to use Google Translate when you read my post? That might be why the grammar is pretty weird on your end.

[Honover]

I agree with everything here besides Sans. Now, if it's the way you said and it was just because he was lazy, that would make him a real ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, considering he doesn't save his brother and lets you go through the judgement without a fight in some neutral runs.

But, I don't think that's the case. I believe Sans actually IS the easiest enemy and he only gets strong against people who deserve it. His "KR damage" is basically the only reason he's not dealing 1 damage every hit anyway, and that could be a thing that increases depending on the LV of the target. It could even be something that won't be enabled until someone reaches LV 19. I believe that's why he doesn't stop Frisk as soon as they kill Papyrus, considering their fairly low LV at that stage in the game.

Originally posted by ElateKitty:

Originally posted by Soundless1997:

Sans is never the first thing I think about when it comes to Undertale.

Whenever I think about Undertale, I think about how on the true pacifist route, Frisk is really capable of literally forgiving everybody no matter how much pain and suffering was inflicted on them. It makes me wish we had more people that way in real life.

Pacifist Frisk is honestly a freaking trooper for going through so much suffering and forgiving the people they have the right to completely hate. The monsters shove so much responsibility on Frisk because of their own self pity. Pacifist Frisk deserves... so much better.

I agree, all they want is to kill no one and literally every monster beats them on sight...

EDIT: Well, most monsters...

[Dr_Seuss]

Originally posted by an.awesome.person.99:

I liked Asgore for the same reason you do, but I don't like how he appears for only a few short scenes at the end of the story. You never get to know him better over time the same way you do with Sans, Undyne, and Alphys (who also apologizes, like Asgore). Out of the 6 monsters that support you when Flowey attacks, Asgore has the single most boring house.

That's something that bothers me as well. For as much as the game builds him up, we spend the least amount of time with him compared to every other character, which is disappointing because other than Sans, I believe Asgore's character would've been the most interesting to explore.

Also, Alphys doesn't apologize about manipulating you or creating the amalgamations. She apologizes for not telling you that'd you'd have to kill Asgore to cross the barrier. It's not the fact that she did those things that I have a problem with, it's the fact that she doesn't learn or recognize what she did was wrong and doesn't develop because of it. That's really my issue with most of the main cast. They don't ever recognize their own flaws or mistakes, so they never end up developing from it. They're never set the same moral standards that Frisk is, which is why there's such a huge disconnect between Undertale's themes and its actual narrative.

[Dr_Seuss]

Originally posted by Cardiavolo:

I agree with everything here besides Sans. Now, if it's the way you said and it was just because he was lazy, that would make him a real ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, considering he doesn't save his brother and lets you go through the judgement without a fight in some neutral runs.

But, I don't think that's the case. I believe Sans actually IS the easiest enemy and he only gets strong against people who deserve it. His "KR damage" is basically the only reason he's not dealing 1 damage every hit anyway, and that could be a thing that increases depending on the LV of the target. It could even be something that won't be enabled until someone reaches LV 19. I believe that's why he doesn't stop Frisk as soon as they kill Papyrus, considering their fairly low LV at that stage in the game.

I can understand Sans maybe not having as much power to be able to fight you, but it's the fact that he doesn't do ANYTHING to deter you from killing monsters or prevent you from being able to. He doesn't try to do anything because he doesn't see the point in doing so, which is why it's hypocritical for him to complain about how he could've been friends with Frisk when he doesn't even put the effort into trying.

[sumwun]

Originally posted by ElateKitty:

Also, Alphys doesn't apologize about manipulating you or creating the amalgamations. She apologizes for not telling you that'd you'd have to kill Asgore to cross the barrier. It's not the fact that she did those things that I have a problem with, it's the fact that she doesn't learn or recognize what she did was wrong and doesn't develop because of it.

Originally posted by Alphys:

Now, I've changed my mind about all this.
I'm going to tell everyone what I've done.
...
It's going to be hard.
Being honest...Believing in myself...
I'm sure there will be times where I'll struggle.
I'm sure there will be times where I screw up again.
But knowing, deep down, that I have friends to fall back on...
I know it'll be a lot easier to stand on my own.
Thank you.
Come on guys.
It's time for everyone to go home.

Does this not count as development? She literally says she changes her mind.

That's really my issue with most of the main cast. They don't ever recognize their own flaws or mistakes, so they never end up developing from it. They're never set the same moral standards that Frisk is, which is why there's such a huge disconnect between Undertale's themes and its actual narrative.

I'm going through the main cast one by one.

Toriel: She briefly apologizes when Frisk spares her, but she's still overprotective next time they meet.
Sans:

it's hypocritical for him to complain about how he could've been friends with Frisk

I don't remember seeing him complain. When does he do it?
Papyrus: He's a pretty lame and unrelatable character. He's there just for comedic relief.
Undyne: She definitely develops when she decides that Frisk deserves to live, but she doesn't say much to suggest she really regrets trying to kill Frisk earlier. Also she takes off her helmet when she fights, which is stupid.
Alphys: see above
Mettaton: He realizes something about how the monsters underground are depending on him, and they'd be sad if he went to the surface by himself. I don't think this is a major realization or interesting development, but it's better than nothing.
Asgore: see above
Flowey: I think his problem is similar to Asgore's. He's an interesting character, but he simply doesn't have enough appearances. I was honestly disappointed by how little I felt sorry for Asriel at the end of the story. I've seen other stories develop their bad guy much better than Undertale developed Flowey.

I guess Undertale at least attempts to develop most of the main characters, but it's not the best game at focusing on the character development.

[Dr_Seuss]

Originally posted by an.awesome.person.99:

Does this not count as development? She literally says she changes her mind.

What does she learn? That lying is wrong? That it's okay to ruin someone's life beyond repair as long as she's honest with herself?

Originally posted by an.awesome.person.99:

Toriel: She briefly apologizes when Frisk spares her, but she's still overprotective next time they meet.

No, she doesn't. She says she'll put aside her fears to let Frisk pass, but she never apologizes and asks Frisk to not contact her again after they leave.

Originally posted by an.awesome.person.99:

I don't remember seeing him complain. When does he do it?

On the genocide route during his boss battle.

"sounds strange, but before all this i was secretly hoping we could be friends. i always thought the anomaly was doing this cause they were unhappy. and when they got what they wanted, they would stop all this. and maybe all they needed was... i dunno. some good food, some bad laughs, some nice friends. but that's ridiculous, right? yeah, you're the type of person who won't EVER be happy."

How would you know, Sans? You didn't even try.

Originally posted by an.awesome.person.99:

Papyrus: He's a pretty lame and unrelatable character. He's there just for comedic relief.

That's true, but compared to Sans, he never gives up on his morals. Even though he fails to reach out to Frisk on the genocide route, he made the effort to try and do so.

Originally posted by an.awesome.person.99:

Undyne: She definitely develops when she decides that Frisk deserves to live, but she doesn't say much to suggest she really regrets trying to kill Frisk earlier. Also she takes off her helmet when she fights, which is stupid.

EDIT: Misread what you said. Sorry about that, didn't mean to sound kind of ♥♥♥♥♥♥.

The issue I have with Undyne is exactly that. She never regrets or realizes that it was wrong to try and hunt down Frisk. The closest she gets to apologizing is deciding that she doesn't want to fight Frisk anymore after their hangout, but still threatens to beat up Frisk if they hurt Asgore.

Originally posted by an.awesome.person.99:

Alphys: see above

I'm just going to paste what I said on a different thread:

Originally posted by an.awesome.person.99:

How do you know that she didn't feel both?

How do you know that she did?

She never explicitly states that the creation of the amalgamations was what she felt shame and guilt over, only that the experiment failed.

"As you probably know, ASGORE asked me to study the nature of SOULS. During my research, I isolated a power I called 'determination.' I injected it into dying monsters so their SOULS would last after death. But the experiment failed... Pretty soon, all of the test subjects had melted together into... Those. Seeing them like this, I knew... I couldn't tell their families about it. I couldn't tell anyone about it... And I was too afraid to do any more work, knowing... everything I'd done so far had been such a horrific failure... But now. Now, I've changed my mind about all this. I'm going to tell everyone what I've done. It's going to be hard. Being honest... Believing in myself... I'm sure there will be times where I'll struggle. I'm sure there will be times where I screw up again. But knowing, deep down, that I have friends to fall back on... I know it'll be a lot easier to stand on my own."

But the experiment failed.

And I was too afraid to do any more work, knowing... everything I'd done so far had been such a horrific failure...

Being honest... Believing in myself... I'm sure there will be times where I'll struggle. I'm sure there will be times where I screw up again.

You see what I mean?

She never expresses any guilt or concern over the amalgamations, only over her self-esteem.

Originally posted by an.awesome.person.99:

Mettaton: He realizes something about how the monsters underground are depending on him, and they'd be sad if he went to the surface by himself. I don't think this is a major realization or interesting development, but it's better than nothing.

That's true. I'll concede about that. And even though he doesn't apologize to Frisk, he does give them encouragement about getting past Asgore.

Originally posted by an.awesome.person.99:

Flowey: I think his problem is similar to Asgore's. He's an interesting character, but he simply doesn't have enough appearances. I was honestly disappointed by how little I felt sorry for Asriel at the end of the story. I've seen other stories develop their bad guy much better than Undertale developed Flowey.

Same. And yeah, it would've been nice if we had more time spent with Flowey and Asriel. For being the main big bad, they only show up at the beginning and at the end of the game.

Originally posted by an.awesome.person.99:

I guess Undertale at least attempts to develop most of the main characters, but it's not the best game at focusing on the character development.

Exactly. I feel like if more time was focused on exploring the character and their flaws, the narrative would've been a lot more solid.

[Soundless1997]

Originally posted by an.awsome.person.99:

Originally posted by ElateKitty:

Asgore's the only character out of the main cast that acknowledges what he did was wrong, which made me sympathize with him more than I ever could with any of the other characters. Asgore explains why he did what he did (killing the six fallen humans and waging war against humanity), but he never uses it as an excuse. And after you've fought him, he willingly gives up his soul so that Frisk can cross the barrier. Yes, Asgore's done a lot of bad ♥♥♥♥, but he also knows he's done bad ♥♥♥♥ and feels genuine guilt and shame over it.

I liked Asgore for the same reason you do, but I don't like how he appears for only a few short scenes at the end of the story. You never get to know him better over time the same way you do with Sans, Undyne, and Alphys (who also apologizes, like Asgore). Out of the 6 monsters that support you when Flowey attacks, Asgore has the single most boring house.

Seriously, out of all the characters that got the most hate, it was Asgore? And Sans was the one that took over the fandom? The system's rigged, my lads.

Originally posted by Soundless1997:

Sans is never the first thing I think about when it comes to Undertale.

Even though I usually go against bandwagons and trends, I still like Sans better than the other characters. Sans is the reminder that Undertale is most importantly a game, and the stuff you do in the game doesn't really matter. You're not sparing monsters because you're morally obligated to do it. You play because it's fun. Out of all the characters, are any of them better than Sans at having fun?

Frisk is really capable of literally forgiving everybody no matter how much pain and suffering was inflicted on them. It makes me wish we had more people that way in real life.

Easier said than done. Unlike Frisk, real people need to drink water and eat food to stay alive. If you woke up one day and found that all your food and water was stolen, would you forgive the thief?

Theoretically as a true pacifist, I wouldn't forgive the thief but neither would I ever seek revenge.

[sumwun]

Originally posted by ElateKitty:

What does she learn? That lying is wrong? That it's okay to ruin someone's life beyond repair as long as she's honest with herself?

According to the amalgamates and their families, Alphys didn't ruin their lives beyond repair.

No, she doesn't. She says she'll put aside her fears to let Frisk pass, but she never apologizes and asks Frisk to not contact her again after they leave.

When she says she's putting her fears aside, doesn't that count as recognizing those fears are unhealthy? Also it's totally okay for people to take breaks from each other. When people become friends, they're not obligated to keep talking and remain friends forever.

On the genocide route during his boss battle.

"sounds strange, but before all this i was secretly hoping we could be friends. i always thought the anomaly was doing this cause they were unhappy. and when they got what they wanted, they would stop all this. and maybe all they needed was... i dunno. some good food, some bad laughs, some nice friends. but that's ridiculous, right? yeah, you're the type of person who won't EVER be happy."

How would you know, Sans? You didn't even try.

Sans already saw Papyrus try and get killed, and he probably also noticed when Toriel disappeared. Even if Sans wasn't lazy, I don't think he would be stupid enough to repeat their mistakes.

[Dr_Seuss]

Originally posted by an.awsome.person.99:

According to the amalgamates and their families, Alphys didn't ruin their lives beyond repair.

So then that completely absolves her from what she did? She doesn't have to feel any guilt or shame over the amalgamates because they just happen to be totally fine with it?

Originally posted by an.awsome.person.99:

When she says she's putting her fears aside, doesn't that count as recognizing those fears are unhealthy? Also it's totally okay for people to take breaks from each other. When people become friends, they're not obligated to keep talking and remain friends forever.

That is true, so I'll concede my point about Toriel recognizing her mistake. Though, may I remind you that Toriel doesn't contact Frisk throughout their entire journey in the Underground, where they're repeatedly attacked by monsters, nor does she respond to any of their calls. I think the situation is a little bit different then what you're describing.

Originally posted by an.awsome.person.99:

Sans already saw Papyrus try and get killed, and he probably also noticed when Toriel disappeared. Even if Sans wasn't lazy, I don't think he would be stupid enough to repeat their mistakes.

It's the fact that Sans didn't try to do ANYTHING is what I'm trying to point out. He didn't try to stop Frisk or deter them from killing monsters. He doesn't even help out with the evacuation. He gives up.