Character ages

[rayland]

I'm sorry, I know there have been hundreds of threads like these before, but I've never gotten to put my opinion into this.

SPOILER WARNING

What do you think the ages of the Undertale characters are?

I've done lots of research and read lots of discussions, and I've come to these conclusions:

Frisk: 11-13. I know they look like a little kid, but they're able to speak with perfect grammar, they can kill mercilessly, they can flirt, they can save the world, and I doubt any kid less than 10 could do this.
Edit: Also, the toys in your room in Toriel's house say they "don't interest you", which means you're most likely too old to play with toys.

Asriel: 9-11. He's probably around the same age as Frisk, but maybe a little younger, as he's smaller and he's a "crybaby".

Chara: 12-14. This might sound crazy, but they got a freaking KNIFE as a present. Why would you give a child a knife? Even a toy one? Also, they tried to kill themself twice, and they hate humanity. They sound pretty mature, but the choices they give you are also pretty immature, so they're probably a preteen or early teenager.

Papyrus: I used to think of him to be around 19, but I thought about it some more, and he has to be 17 at the most, unless they have a different age system in the Underground. He's going through TRAINING, not RECRUITMENT, to get into the Royal Guard, which means he must not be old enough or ready enough to join. Usually, you have to be 18 to get a job. He's also pretty immature, and I have a 17 year old brother myself, so I know what I'm talking about.

Sans: 20-30. It's a little vague, but he's old enough to call Frisk a kid, so he can't be 18 if Frisk is 13. He is also hinted to have a scientific background, and there has to have time for him to be a scientist. We also know he's Papyrus' older brother.

Undyne: 25-30. She's pretty young, as she loves anime, but she's also a seasoned warrior. She's pretty mature, so she's most likely older. I imagine her as 28.

Alphys: 25-35. She must be around Undyne's age. I think she's younger than Undyne, but she also has a complicated background which must've had a few years to develop. She has a stable, professional job just like Undyne, so she has to be older than 20, but she's also kind of immature in her obsession with anime, so she might be on the younger side.

Toriel: Mentally 50-1,000. Physically 20-30. Since she's a boss monster, she doesn't age unless her child is alive, but she's old enough to call herself an "old lady", also she was alive in the war so she must be ancient.

Asgore: Same as Toriel.

Well, that's my own opinion. Feel free to put forth your own! I'm not trying to argue with anyone about their opinions. I respect everyone. Thanks for reading this long rant!

[DJ]

Opprinnelig skrevet av rorgfist:

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

I know many twelve year-olds whose bodies have barely started to gain shape and are still under five feet tall. It's possible for a ten-to-twelve year-old to be very underdeveloped.

A exception, not the norm.

More often than not, those who look like little kids are little kids, so unless specified, we have no reason to believe frisk is any different

This. Frisk is younger than the teens in Deltarune, for sure. I also think that the way Toriel treats you suggests that Frisk is quite young, after all she doesn't want you to see kissing and she suggests you take a nap, both things much more likely to happen to younger children. On a side note when Asriel returns in Deltarune I need him to look just like he does in (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr's profile pic.

[rayland]

Opprinnelig skrevet av rorgfist:

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

I know many twelve year-olds whose bodies have barely started to gain shape and are still under five feet tall. It's possible for a ten-to-twelve year-old to be very underdeveloped.

A exception, not the norm.

More often than not, those who look like little kids are little kids, so unless specified, we have no reason to believe frisk is any different

but we have no reason to believe they're not

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Opprinnelig skrevet av rorgfist:

A exception, not the norm.

More often than not, those who look like little kids are little kids, so unless specified, we have no reason to believe frisk is any different

but we have no reason to believe they're not

Other than Toriel, one of the few monsters that knows what a young child is, calls Frisk a young child.

[rayland]

Opprinnelig skrevet av (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

but we have no reason to believe they're not

Other than Toriel, one of the few monsters that knows what a young child is, calls Frisk a young child.

She calls them a child, not young child. a twelve year old is still a child

[rorgfist]

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Opprinnelig skrevet av rorgfist:

A exception, not the norm.

More often than not, those who look like little kids are little kids, so unless specified, we have no reason to believe frisk is any different

but we have no reason to believe they're not

Yes we have, their looks.

Its actually quite the opposite. If they look like a tiny child, we have no reason to believe they are not unless specifically stated.

If the game shows you something, the its that something unless specifically stated otherwise.

Not to mention in the official artbook they look like 7-8, and its official art.

And how characters adress him in game.

I repeat it again, its exactly the opposite of what you say, we have absolutely no reason to believe he is 10 years old or older. Everything in the game portrait it as very yound.


A 12 years old isnt what is commonly referred as a child, its pretty much a teen, and there is no reference to that in game, if he were a borderline teen...... where is the reference to that?

Google "child" and go to images. thats a child. Duh.

[rorgfist]

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Opprinnelig skrevet av (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

Other than Toriel, one of the few monsters that knows what a young child is, calls Frisk a young child.

She calls them a child, not young child. a twelve year old is still a child

Its a child who, punching a tomato at full strength, can barely knock it over.

An easy question for you. Do you think a 12 years old lack the strength to squash or at the very least breake the skin of the tomato?

Only a little child would be unable to breake a tomate despite genuinely trying to.

[rayland]

Opprinnelig skrevet av rorgfist:

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

but we have no reason to believe they're not

Yes we have, their looks.

Its actually quite the opposite. If they look like a tiny child, we have no reason to believe they are not unless specifically stated.

If the game shows you something, the its that something unless specifically stated otherwise.

Not to mention in the official artbook they look like 7-8, and its official art.

And how characters adress him in game.

I repeat it again, its exactly the opposite of what you say, we have absolutely no reason to believe he is 10 years old or older. Everything in the game portrait it as very yound.


A 12 years old isnt what is commonly referred as a child, its pretty much a teen, and there is no reference to that in game, if he were a borderline teen...... where is the reference to that?

Google "child" and go to images. thats a child. Duh.

Hey, can you please calm down? If you can't have a civilized or mature conversation, I don't want to talk to you.

It's entirely an opinion as to what age Frisk looks like. I personally think the sprite looks like 9-11. You can't tell me it's a fact that they look 7 years old, because it's not. That's your own personal opinion, just like whether Frisk is a boy or a girl.

"We have no reason to believe"

Because I'm sure a 7 year old can speak in perfect grammar, talk on the phone, kill everyone in their path, save the world, destroy the world, be too old to play with toys, be able to flirt and go on dates, and be a similar age to a kid who tried to kill themselves twice and received a knife for their birthday. (I mean Chara as the other kid, of course.)

I respect your opinion and if you disagree, that's entirely okay. You have every right to think that Frisk is 7 years old, or whatever you think. But please respect my opinion as well, instead of acting like it's wrong.

[rorgfist]

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Hey, can you please calm down? If you can't have a civilized or mature conversation, I don't want to talk to you.

Im calmed, i just stated points, one after another, that doesnt mean im angry.

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

It's entirely an opinion as to what age Frisk looks like. I personally think the sprite looks like 9-11. You can't tell me it's a fact that they look 7 years old, because it's not. That's your own personal opinion, just like whether Frisk is a boy or a girl.

Again, you are using something that doesnt really proves anything (the sprite, who, by the proportions head/body, hints a very young age, but doesnt solidly confirm anything) as proof, when we have plenty of proof already

First, kid-like capabilities.


Cant swim, can crush a simple tomato, cant perform any kidn of athletic feat that would prove a decent age. Not even jump, he can only walk.

Do you think a 11 year old boy or girl cant effortlessly crush a tomato?

Then why frisk is incapable of doing so even if they actually try?

Frisk being adressed always as a child. Period.
a child is age 4-12

Unless you have a direct game reference of him being a very young child (4-6) or a big child or nearly a teen (10-12) we should take "my child" ot the flowey "you control a lost child" from the demo, exactly as that, as you average child (6-10)

Other than that is trying to cherry pick the most improbable and implausible scenarios just because it suits you, depite everything pointing to the contrary.


Next, canon art.

https://scontent.fmad8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15241749_1663724830596657_525922416442398568_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fmad8-1.fna&oh=97615ea24b833d6d322b2d940a9627a7&oe=5D605766

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0014/1962/products/product_UT_artbook_photo3_1024x1024.png?v=1521608197

Nuff said, its always invariably represented as a little child, with a large head in proportion of their body, something present only in little childs (10-12 years old child are much more proportionate)

TL:DR if everything in the game, the canon art, the demo, the visuals, the actions of both him and everyone next to it and the kickstarted info points at him being a lost child, means he is a lost child without further punctuations.

Not a 4 year old, not a 12 year old, even if those are still technically child, they arent what is normally referred as child..

A child is a child. And you ahve absolutely 0 hints in game of what you are trying to say.

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Because I'm sure a 7 year old can speak in perfect grammar, talk on the phone, kill everyone in their path, save the world, destroy the world, be too old to play with toys, be able to flirt and go on dates, and be a similar age to a kid who tried to kill themselves twice and received a knife for their birthday. (I mean Chara as the other kid, of course.)

Frisk doesnt speak, ever in the game.
Neither in perfect grammar or in imperfect grammar. That point is invalid.

Frisk never talks on the phone, just pick up the phone and listen, and a 7 years old can do that just fine.

Yes, humans are unsurmountably stronger than monsters, if everyone in their path is a monster, the fact that they can kill them is not only unsurprising, but to be expected.

An entirely different issue would be for them to kill actual humans.

Save the world/destroy the world have to do only with their power of reset and determination.
Its completely unrelated to their age.

Im not talking about chara here, but suicide can be attempted by any age capable of independent move, and a knife as a gift from a different culture than the humans.....

Humans have vastly different cultures even from ethnic group to ethnic group, we know little to nothing about monster society.

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

I respect your opinion and if you disagree, that's entirely okay. You have every right to think that Frisk is 7 years old, or whatever you think. But please respect my opinion as well, instead of acting like it's wrong.

If what you say or think directly contradics the game or the canona rt book, its not "acting like your opinion is wrong"

Your opinion is actually wrong, and im merely stating that.

This isnt like having an opinion about gaster, that its either impossible to prove or to disprove.

thats actually something thats pretty easy to check and either confirm or deny

You cant say that frisk is either a teen or almost a teen just like you cant say frisk is 6´4 feet tall and 900 lbs of weight, because even if their exact age, heigh and weight arent specified to the digit, its very obvious and we have plenty of material to know.

Is frisk 55 lbs or 60 lbs?
We dont exactly know, but they arent 20 and they arent 80, thats for sure, the same happens with their age.

We see frisk in game. We see frisk actions in game (and again, we know that they cant crush a tomato even if he seriously try) and we definitely know he is nowhere near to being a teen.

[rayland]

Opprinnelig skrevet av rorgfist:

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Im calmed, i just stated points, one after another, that doesnt mean im angry.



Again, you are using something that doesnt really proves anything (the sprite, who, by the proportions head/body, hints a very young age, but doesnt solidly confirm anything) as proof, when we have plenty of proof already

First, kid-like capabilities.


Cant swim, can crush a simple tomato, cant perform any kidn of athletic feat that would prove a decent age. Not even jump, he can only walk.

Do you think a 11 year old boy or girl cant effortlessly crush a tomato?

Then why frisk is incapable of doing so even if they actually try?

Frisk being adressed always as a child. Period.
a child is age 4-12

Unless you have a direct game reference of him being a very young child (4-6) or a big child or nearly a teen (10-12) we should take "my child" ot the flowey "you control a lost child" from the demo, exactly as that, as you average child (6-10)

Other than that is trying to cherry pick the most improbable and implausible scenarios just because it suits you, depite everything pointing to the contrary.


Next, canon art.

https://scontent.fmad8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15241749_1663724830596657_525922416442398568_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fmad8-1.fna&oh=97615ea24b833d6d322b2d940a9627a7&oe=5D605766

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0014/1962/products/product_UT_artbook_photo3_1024x1024.png?v=1521608197

Nuff said, its always invariably represented as a little child, with a large head in proportion of their body, something present only in little childs (10-12 years old child are much more proportionate)

TL:DR if everything in the game, the canon art, the demo, the visuals, the actions of both him and everyone next to it and the kickstarted info points at him being a lost child, means he is a lost child without further punctuations.

Not a 4 year old, not a 12 year old, even if those are still technically child, they arent what is normally referred as child..

A child is a child. And you ahve absolutely 0 hints in game of what you are trying to say.





Frisk doesnt speak, ever in the game.
Neither in perfect grammar or in imperfect grammar. That point is invalid.

Frisk never talks on the phone, just pick up the phone and listen, and a 7 years old can do that just fine.

Yes, humans are unsurmountably stronger than monsters, if everyone in their path is a monster, the fact that they can kill them is not only unsurprising, but to be expected.

An entirely different issue would be for them to kill actual humans.

Save the world/destroy the world have to do only with their power of reset and determination.
Its completely unrelated to their age.

Im not talking about chara here, but suicide can be attempted by any age capable of independent move, and a knife as a gift from a different culture than the humans.....

Humans have vastly different cultures even from ethnic group to ethnic group, we know little to nothing about monster society.





If what you say or think directly contradics the game or the canona rt book, its not "acting like your opinion is wrong"

Your opinion is actually wrong, and im merely stating that.

This isnt like having an opinion about gaster, that its either impossible to prove or to disprove.

thats actually something thats pretty easy to check and either confirm or deny

You cant say that frisk is either a teen or almost a teen just like you cant say frisk is 6´4 feet tall and 900 lbs of weight, because even if their exact age, heigh and weight arent specified to the digit, its very obvious and we have plenty of material to know.

Is frisk 55 lbs or 60 lbs?
We dont exactly know, but they arent 20 and they arent 80, thats for sure, the same happens with their age.

We see frisk in game. We see frisk actions in game (and again, we know that they cant crush a tomato even if he seriously try) and we definitely know he is nowhere near to being a teen.

This is why I'm calling you rude.

First: using the term "duh" as if something is entirely obvious and I'm not realizing it.

Telling me my evidence isn't supported, when if you've actually played the game, you can see every point I made is canon.

Again, telling me my opinion is wrong.
IT IS DEFINITELY AN OPINION. If it is not openly stated that Frisk is __ years old, then there is no fact as to what age they are, therefore can be left to decide by the player. All we know is they're a child, so they could be from 5-12 years old. A teen is 13 and up, so I personally think that 12 is still a child.

Please stop telling me that my ideas and evidence is wrong. It's rude and slightly immature and it's getting on my nerves, because although the evidence you are giving makes a lot of sense, and I like hearing your own ideas, it's rude to call your own opinion a fact. I'm sorry if that sounded rude myself, I didn't mean to offend you.

Now: Frisk DOES talk in the game. We just don't see the text.
Examples:
Frisk tells Toriel which flavour of pie they want.
Frisk flirts with Papryus.
Frisk tells Papyrus what they think of his outfit.
Frisk tells Papyrus many things on the date/hangout, actually.
Frisk tells Alphys either "all thanks to you!" or nothing, depending on what you choose.

Your point that Frisk can't knock over a tomato is a very good point, and I can't think of any reason why a 12 year old wouldn't be able to knock over a tomato other than they're very small and wouldn't be able to reach the counter very well. It's not a very good response, and it was a great point, but you're kind of using it as your main foundation as to why Frisk is a young child...? At least, that's how you're coming off. Sorry if that's not what you meant.

Thanks for discussing this with me, I look forward to see more of your thoughts.

[DJ]

Frisk flirts when you tell them too, there’s no way to know whether or not they would/could apart from the soul, just like how it’s doubtful they would/could destroy the world apart from the player (who gains LV when they kill because you feel less attached to the characters)

[rorgfist]

First things first. Nothing i say have the intention of offending or hurting you, so please dont feel attacked, im atacking ideas, not anybody, just like every debate should be.

By the same rule, dont worry about offending me, you wont unless you deliberately try to.

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

This is why I'm calling you rude.

First: using the term "duh" as if something is entirely obvious and I'm not realizing it.

Ok, i wont repeat it again

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Telling me my evidence isn't supported, when if you've actually played the game, you can see every point I made is canon.

No, you can see that it isnt, lets take a llok at your "evidence"

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Frisk: 11-13. I know they look like a little kid, but they're able to speak with perfect grammar, they can kill mercilessly, they can flirt, they can save the world, and I doubt any kid less than 10 could do this.
Edit: Also, the toys in your room in Toriel's house say they "don't interest you", which means you're most likely too old to play with toys.

1 they look like a little kid, true, and points at my point, not yours, they also are adressed as a YOUNG kid and look VERY young in the OFFICIAL CANON ART

https://scontent.fmad8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15241749_1663724830596657_525922416442398568_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fmad8-1.fna&oh=97615ea24b833d6d322b2d940a9627a7&oe=5D605766

A very valuable piece that you ignored in the previous post.

2 They arent able to speak with perfect grammar, we never see them talking. They talk, true, even if you cant hear it, but that doesnt prove they are older than their looks. I will copy and paste a quote directly from talkingpoint.org:

"Often by 5 or 6 years, children have good communication skills. They are better at using language in different ways e.g. discussing ideas or giving opinions.

Children develop skills at different rates, but beyond 5 years, usually children will:

Focus on one thing for longer without being reminded.
Rely less on pictures and objects to learn new words.
Use their language skills in learning to read, write and spell.
Learn that the same word can mean two things, such as 'orange' the fruit and 'orange' the colour.
Learn that different words can mean the same thing such as ’minus’ and ‘take away’.
Understand feelings and descriptive words like 'carefully', 'slowly' or 'clever'.
Use language for different purposes such as asking questions or persuading.
Share and discuss more complex ideas.
Use language in a range of social situations."

Sharing and discussing "complex" ideas, usa language in a range of social situations or synonims proves they are at least 5-6, which doesnt go against their looks of 8 years or so in the slightest.

3 They can kill MONSTERS, which doesnt have any merit as a human. again, this proves they have basic movility, which can and should be accomplished at 5-6 years too.

4 Flirting will be in the "use language in a range of social situations" and discussing complex ideas, 5-6 years old of older, in fact, i had my first "girlfriend" at 6 and we were "together" for 2 years.

5 Using the SAVE and RESET option, as i already mentioned, isnt linked to their age, but to their determination., you cant use their SAVE ability to argue about their age just like you cant use their shirt color to argue about their age, they simply arent related AT ALL.

Every point you made is canon, and proves they are at least 5-6 years old.

Which nobody argued to begin with, we simply argued they arent 10

EDIT: not being interested in those toys doesnt mean anything, specially for a frightened kid that just fell down a mountain, it isnt really a valid point for either of us

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Again, telling me my opinion is wrong.
IT IS DEFINITELY AN OPINION. If it is not openly stated that Frisk is __ years old, then there is no fact as to what age they are, therefore can be left to decide by the player.

All we know is they're a child, so they could be from 5-12 years old. A teen is 13 and up, so I personally think that 12 is still a child.

Exactly, their age, heigh and weight arent determined to the decimals, you have SOME wiggling room.

You can say they are 55 lbs, you can say they are 60.
You can say they are 47.7" (121.1 cm), you can say they are 52.5" (133.3 cm)
You can say they are 7 years old, you can say they are 9.

That doesnt mean you get to choose extremes that go against what the canon art and canon game suggest.

You cant say they weight 150 lbs (morbidly obese kids can reach 200 lbs, so its possible for a kid to weight 150, its simply not frisk case, and you can actually see that.)

You cant say they are 6 feet tall (they are kids that were 6 feet tall, even if its abnormally large for a kid, so its possible, its simply not frisk case, and you can actually see that)

You cant say they are just 4, or almost 12 (they are kids with 4 years and a month or 12 years and 11 months that are still technically kids, its simply not frisk case, and you can actually see that)

They hide behind a lamp because they have the same size! Benches and chairs are the same heigh as him. Adults are over twice their size

Theres simply too much simple comparison that inmediately disprove frisk being nearly a teen.
(again, frisk being a YOUNG boy is adressed in teh game, frisk bein nearly a teen isnt)

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Please stop telling me that my ideas and evidence is wrong. It's rude and slightly immature and it's getting on my nerves,

Then stop using evidence that they are at least 5 years old to "prove" they have 11!

Thats also inmmature

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

because although the evidence you are giving makes a lot of sense, and I like hearing your own ideas, it's rude to call your own opinion a fact. I'm sorry if that sounded rude myself, I didn't mean to offend you.

Dont worry about my feelings, im never offended by different opinions, blunt sincerity or debate, only when someone actively picks on me.

Im not calling my opinion a fact, im callings facts a fact. They are a young kid in game and are depicted as a young kid in the art, not as a pre-teen. This is not my opinion, this is how they are depicted.

Also look at all the comparisons!
Compare normal adults in game with frisk concerning height
Concerning weight
Physical capabilities, like being unable to jump, climb and crush the tomato
Being always adressed as a child or a young child, without hintings of being pre-teen.
Body proportions
Having lamp-like height and similar size to a chair.

etc, etc etc. Pre teens arent as small, weak and disproportionate in the head/body ratio.

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Now: Frisk DOES talk in the game. We just don't see the text.
Examples:
Frisk tells Toriel which flavour of pie they want.
Frisk flirts with Papryus.
Frisk tells Papyrus what they think of his outfit.
Frisk tells Papyrus many things on the date/hangout, actually.
Frisk tells Alphys either "all thanks to you!" or nothing, depending on what you choose.

Indeed, but as i said, at 5-6 years old, you already have developed a vocabulary able to carry you through a lot of conversations and social interactions as long as the adult isnt hellbent on confusing/deceieving you or misinterpreting you. Frisk talking, flirting, using a phone, or having a "date" doesnt prove them older than 5-6.

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Your point that Frisk can't knock over a tomato is a very good point, and I can't think of any reason why a 12 year old wouldn't be able to knock over a tomato other than they're very small and wouldn't be able to reach the counter very well. It's not a very good response, and it was a great point, but you're kind of using it as your main foundation as to why Frisk is a young child...? At least, that's how you're coming off. Sorry if that's not what you meant.

Thanks for discussing this with me, I look forward to see more of your thoughts.

Again, dont apologize if you do nothing wrong.
I dont want to hurt you, just want to prove my point, same as you, we arent doing anything bad. theres no reason for either of us to feel bad.

The tomato point (childlike strength) was just one of many, like childish height, weight, size, proportion and skills. It isnt the most or least important of my points.

Their head to body ratio and canon looks:

https://scontent.fmad8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15241749_1663724830596657_525922416442398568_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fmad8-1.fna&oh=97615ea24b833d6d322b2d940a9627a7&oe=5D605766

Are actually my main point.

Just like your main points is that kids are between age 4-13 if we include extremes.

They also weight between 30 and 200 lbs if we include extremes.

We must focus on frisk, and how they look and interact with the world

The fact that something is a valid range for a child

(like 12 years and a half, or 150 lbs) doesnt mean those are open possibilities for frisk.

Frisk looks are actually pretty clear in a lot of senses.

Still, if everything i have carefully shown you still havent convinced you that they being a kid doesnt justify being 11 years old (despite existing kids who are 11 years old kids, just like there are 150 pounds kids), nothing outside of a direct statement from toby fox will. I dont discard further answers, but they wont be anywhere near this long from now on.

Have a nice day!

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

I feel this got a lot deeper than it ever really needed to go.

[rorgfist]

Opprinnelig skrevet av (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

I feel this got a lot deeper than it ever really needed to go.

Always, boredom is a hell of a drug.

[rayland]

Opprinnelig skrevet av rorgfist:

First things first. Nothing i say have the intention of offending or hurting you, so please dont feel attacked, im atacking ideas, not anybody, just like every debate should be.

By the same rule, dont worry about offending me, you wont unless you deliberately try to.

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

This is why I'm calling you rude.

First: using the term "duh" as if something is entirely obvious and I'm not realizing it.

Ok, i wont repeat it again

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Telling me my evidence isn't supported, when if you've actually played the game, you can see every point I made is canon.

No, you can see that it isnt, lets take a llok at your "evidence"

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Frisk: 11-13. I know they look like a little kid, but they're able to speak with perfect grammar, they can kill mercilessly, they can flirt, they can save the world, and I doubt any kid less than 10 could do this.
Edit: Also, the toys in your room in Toriel's house say they "don't interest you", which means you're most likely too old to play with toys.

1 they look like a little kid, true, and points at my point, not yours, they also are adressed as a YOUNG kid and look VERY young in the OFFICIAL CANON ART

https://scontent.fmad8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15241749_1663724830596657_525922416442398568_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fmad8-1.fna&oh=97615ea24b833d6d322b2d940a9627a7&oe=5D605766

A very valuable piece that you ignored in the previous post.

2 They arent able to speak with perfect grammar, we never see them talking. They talk, true, even if you cant hear it, but that doesnt prove they are older than their looks. I will copy and paste a quote directly from talkingpoint.org:

"Often by 5 or 6 years, children have good communication skills. They are better at using language in different ways e.g. discussing ideas or giving opinions.

Children develop skills at different rates, but beyond 5 years, usually children will:

Focus on one thing for longer without being reminded.
Rely less on pictures and objects to learn new words.
Use their language skills in learning to read, write and spell.
Learn that the same word can mean two things, such as 'orange' the fruit and 'orange' the colour.
Learn that different words can mean the same thing such as ’minus’ and ‘take away’.
Understand feelings and descriptive words like 'carefully', 'slowly' or 'clever'.
Use language for different purposes such as asking questions or persuading.
Share and discuss more complex ideas.
Use language in a range of social situations."

Sharing and discussing "complex" ideas, usa language in a range of social situations or synonims proves they are at least 5-6, which doesnt go against their looks of 8 years or so in the slightest.

3 They can kill MONSTERS, which doesnt have any merit as a human. again, this proves they have basic movility, which can and should be accomplished at 5-6 years too.

4 Flirting will be in the "use language in a range of social situations" and discussing complex ideas, 5-6 years old of older, in fact, i had my first "girlfriend" at 6 and we were "together" for 2 years.

5 Using the SAVE and RESET option, as i already mentioned, isnt linked to their age, but to their determination., you cant use their SAVE ability to argue about their age just like you cant use their shirt color to argue about their age, they simply arent related AT ALL.

Every point you made is canon, and proves they are at least 5-6 years old.

Which nobody argued to begin with, we simply argued they arent 10

EDIT: not being interested in those toys doesnt mean anything, specially for a frightened kid that just fell down a mountain, it isnt really a valid point for either of us

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Again, telling me my opinion is wrong.
IT IS DEFINITELY AN OPINION. If it is not openly stated that Frisk is __ years old, then there is no fact as to what age they are, therefore can be left to decide by the player.

All we know is they're a child, so they could be from 5-12 years old. A teen is 13 and up, so I personally think that 12 is still a child.

Exactly, their age, heigh and weight arent determined to the decimals, you have SOME wiggling room.

You can say they are 55 lbs, you can say they are 60.
You can say they are 47.7" (121.1 cm), you can say they are 52.5" (133.3 cm)
You can say they are 7 years old, you can say they are 9.

That doesnt mean you get to choose extremes that go against what the canon art and canon game suggest.

You cant say they weight 150 lbs (morbidly obese kids can reach 200 lbs, so its possible for a kid to weight 150, its simply not frisk case, and you can actually see that.)

You cant say they are 6 feet tall (they are kids that were 6 feet tall, even if its abnormally large for a kid, so its possible, its simply not frisk case, and you can actually see that)

You cant say they are just 4, or almost 12 (they are kids with 4 years and a month or 12 years and 11 months that are still technically kids, its simply not frisk case, and you can actually see that)

They hide behind a lamp because they have the same size! Benches and chairs are the same heigh as him. Adults are over twice their size

Theres simply too much simple comparison that inmediately disprove frisk being nearly a teen.
(again, frisk being a YOUNG boy is adressed in teh game, frisk bein nearly a teen isnt)

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Please stop telling me that my ideas and evidence is wrong. It's rude and slightly immature and it's getting on my nerves,

Then stop using evidence that they are at least 5 years old to "prove" they have 11!

Thats also inmmature

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

because although the evidence you are giving makes a lot of sense, and I like hearing your own ideas, it's rude to call your own opinion a fact. I'm sorry if that sounded rude myself, I didn't mean to offend you.

Dont worry about my feelings, im never offended by different opinions, blunt sincerity or debate, only when someone actively picks on me.

Im not calling my opinion a fact, im callings facts a fact. They are a young kid in game and are depicted as a young kid in the art, not as a pre-teen. This is not my opinion, this is how they are depicted.

Also look at all the comparisons!
Compare normal adults in game with frisk concerning height
Concerning weight
Physical capabilities, like being unable to jump, climb and crush the tomato
Being always adressed as a child or a young child, without hintings of being pre-teen.
Body proportions
Having lamp-like height and similar size to a chair.

etc, etc etc. Pre teens arent as small, weak and disproportionate in the head/body ratio.

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Now: Frisk DOES talk in the game. We just don't see the text.
Examples:
Frisk tells Toriel which flavour of pie they want.
Frisk flirts with Papryus.
Frisk tells Papyrus what they think of his outfit.
Frisk tells Papyrus many things on the date/hangout, actually.
Frisk tells Alphys either "all thanks to you!" or nothing, depending on what you choose.

Indeed, but as i said, at 5-6 years old, you already have developed a vocabulary able to carry you through a lot of conversations and social interactions as long as the adult isnt hellbent on confusing/deceieving you or misinterpreting you. Frisk talking, flirting, using a phone, or having a "date" doesnt prove them older than 5-6.

Opprinnelig skrevet av HunterNotFrisk:

Your point that Frisk can't knock over a tomato is a very good point, and I can't think of any reason why a 12 year old wouldn't be able to knock over a tomato other than they're very small and wouldn't be able to reach the counter very well. It's not a very good response, and it was a great point, but you're kind of using it as your main foundation as to why Frisk is a young child...? At least, that's how you're coming off. Sorry if that's not what you meant.

Thanks for discussing this with me, I look forward to see more of your thoughts.

Again, dont apologize if you do nothing wrong.
I dont want to hurt you, just want to prove my point, same as you, we arent doing anything bad. theres no reason for either of us to feel bad.

The tomato point (childlike strength) was just one of many, like childish height, weight, size, proportion and skills. It isnt the most or least important of my points.

Their head to body ratio and canon looks:

https://scontent.fmad8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15241749_1663724830596657_525922416442398568_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fmad8-1.fna&oh=97615ea24b833d6d322b2d940a9627a7&oe=5D605766

Are actually my main point.

Just like your main points is that kids are between age 4-13 if we include extremes.

They also weight between 30 and 200 lbs if we include extremes.

We must focus on frisk, and how they look and interact with the world

The fact that something is a valid range for a child

(like 12 years and a half, or 150 lbs) doesnt mean those are open possibilities for frisk.

Frisk looks are actually pretty clear in a lot of senses.

Still, if everything i have carefully shown you still havent convinced you that they being a kid doesnt justify being 11 years old (despite existing kids who are 11 years old kids, just like there are 150 pounds kids), nothing outside of a direct statement from toby fox will. I dont discard further answers, but they wont be anywhere near this long from now on.

Have a nice day!

I have a lot more points but i feel like if i said anything more it would be like an arguement but anyway thanks for discussing

also how old do you think Frisk is anyway?

[rorgfist]

im not really sure, probably 7-9.

It could be a very capable 6 or a very underdeveloped 10, but i think thats stretching it.

The only thing i can know for sure looking at the game and the canon art is that he is some distance away from both being a toddler and being a teen, they are "just your average child" as far as videogames are concerned (huge head in proportion to the body)

I think the art in which frisk is in toriels lap is very revealing.