Undertale

Undertale

rayland 2019 年 10 月 17 日 下午 5:06
Chara isn't evil
SPOILERS AHEAD

This is my opinion and something I've been wanting to discuss for a very long time.
There is this idea in the fandom that Chara is some kind of evil child who's obsessed with knives and killing. I don't agree with this view; I think Chara is just a depressed little kid who died trying to save the world.

First, let me address people who think Chara did the genocide run. Why do you think this? It's Frisk that is killing people (or technically the player, but I'll use the player and Frisk interchangeably in this post.) Chara doesn't force Frisk/the player to do anything, it's entirely your choice. I see so many animated Sans battles that portray Frisk as this scared kid that's trying to stop Chara, and it makes me sick. No offense to anyone that thinks this way, but I personally think you've got it all wrong.

Second, Chara appearing at the end of the genocide run: UnderLab on YouTube created a logical theory on this, and I'm using that theory as part of my reasoning. What appears at the end of a genocide run is more like the representation of the stats. This is shown by it calling itself the feeling you get every time a stat increases. And if it is Chara, then it's them being influenced by what Frisk chose. After all, Chara is the narrator (that isn't completely canon, but heavily hinted at in-game); that means they were stuck with Frisk, a murderous child, for who knows how long Frisk was underground. Chara's also just a kid; 13 years old at the most. They are easily swayed. If they see a kid just like them killing people, they think that's just what humans do. See #4 for more on their hatred for humanity.

Third, Chara possess Frisk. Where did this thought even come from? Chara does not possess Frisk, but sees themselves in Frisk. Did this thought come from Flowey calling the player Chara on a genocide run? Because Flowey calls the player Chara on a pacifist run as well, and no one thinks Chara did the pacifist run.

Fourth, Chara's hatred for humanity. Chara obviously came from an abusive family and was trying to kill themselves by climbing Mt. Ebott. With that kind of stuff happening to a child, it's no wonder they hate humans! And then Frisk comes along and murders their entire family. Who wouldn't hate humans after that?

Fifth, Chara poisoning themselves. They literally sacrificed themselves trying to save the Underground; Asriel dying was not part of the plan. Yes, lashing out at the humans was not the best thing to do, but the humans were 1. attacking their adopted brother who had been their best friend when no one else was, and 2. they were humans. See #4 again.

Altogether, I believe that Chara is a very misunderstood character. They didn't always make the best decisions, but they were also just a scared and depressed child. What do you think? I'm excited to start debating!
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正在显示第 91 - 100 条,共 100 条留言
rorgfist 2019 年 11 月 16 日 上午 7:04 
引用自 blowheaded
A Huge pile of truths

:cozybethesda:

Exactly
undertalefan437 2019 年 11 月 17 日 上午 10:27 
引用自 blowheaded
引用自 Lostillusion
I would like to take a moment to point out that the 3 conversations with Flowey on screen without any UI are directly with the player, not any entity in the world. The first one isn't as clear, but the second one chides you for save-scumming vs Toriel, while the final one asks you not to reset the game.
From the main menu.
Before the game starts.
Flowey pretty much talking to Firsk any way. When Flowey ask not to reset and it was talking to Chara when he say see you later Chara.

Actually, He says whatever name The Player has chosen. Nice try, though.

引用自 Lostillusion
Those are pretty unambiguously aimed at the player behind the screen, rather than some variant of human child in the narrative world.

The same is true of Chara's conversations with the player, and the way selling your soul writes itself into a registry entry to transcend reinstalling the game.

Just because You aren't named, doesn't mean You aren't a character.
引用自 blowheaded
Do you remember the part that Chara said since when you are in control. That can easily apply that Chara was the one doing the loading and reseting instead and even their name is on the save files. If Chara did take user soul. User can't even act on their own in their world. You pretty much go into saying it was talking to player.

Yeah sure... Keep trying to tell me that player being part of it. I keep rejecting it and give you same reply.

Do you mean the bit where chara asks for your soul. If you do, then explain why they ask for the same exact thing in a soulless genocide run. They can't be talking to Frisk. Chara already has their soul. They only other person in this situation who has a soul is The Player.

引用自 DreamHope
yeah I can agree with that you can also find some good informations in judgementboy video "The truth behing Chara"
Even judgement boy video are fill with head canon all the way. There is people in steam thinking judgement boy video is garbage.
引用自 blowheaded
1) Claiming that Chara made pink outfit for Asgore. When clearly there nothing in game said that Chara made it or given to Asgore.

2) Claiming that Chara love them as if it were fact and clearly Chara don't even protect them. Chara do nothing about it and Chara don't complain that their family is kill.

3) Claiming that Chara was abuse and want to kill them self. When clearly there no information about their pass. When Chara got hurt from falling. Also monster told that Chara was crying for help. Also show that Chara trip from a tree root.

4) Claiming that Chara don't know what fun is. By agree that Chara is a narrator. When in undertale demo clearly show sign that Chara having fun. In the undertale genocide demo ending point that out. They say that was fun.

5) Claiming that Chara kill them self by eating butter cup. This not even a fact and not even all that important.

6) Made up claim that Chara tell user to back out of the genocide. When clearly that they never said any thing about asking user to leave the genocide before Flowey get kill.

7) Claiming that Chara give you flash back during Asriel fight. When in game text say that Frisk realize it instead. Even monster tell a story to Frisk about Asriel spend time with a Chara.

8) Claiming that Chara is angry about user kill all their family and kill all monster. When in game it is impossible to kill all monster before the world destroyed. When clearly the shop keeper is still around and undyne told that other monster are hidden. Even in genocide that Chara don't even complain about any one get kill.

9) Also make Chara look like an innocent angel. When clearly that they are not meant to be one.

10) Claiming that Chara about Flowey is last person that they care in genocide run. When in game show that Chara could careless when flowey die in neutral run and genocide run Chara don't even talk about Flowey.

11) Claiming that Chara grave is a the beginning of the game. When no one in game said that Golden flower garden was a grave. This don't even proven any thing about them being good or bad.

12) Claiming that user destroyed the world. When clearly the user tell Chara not to destroy the world. Chara destroy the world any way. When user tell chara not to destroy the world for the second time. Chara destroy the world again. Then lie about user destroy the world after word.

13) Claiming that Chara feel disgusting them self. Chara never did say that at all.

14) Claiming that picture(the one with red x drawn on every one face) remind every one you kill. When clearly alphys was never kill by Frisk.

First off, what is with your grammar? It is terrible. Second, half of your quote unquote "Facts" are wrong. It has been proven by the game that chara ate buttercups/drank tea made from buttercups to kill themselves so that Asriel could take their soul and go to the surface. And one more thing. You say "People make Chara look like an innocent angel, when clearly they are not meant to be one." Nothing is clear about that. That is the way T.F. made it. Things are supposed to be ambiguous. Toby Fox wants people to build their own version of the story. That's why we'll never truly be able to convince you. You see the story in a different way than we do. This argument is completely pointless.

Okay. Now that that's over with. Have a nice day.
最后由 undertalefan437 编辑于; 2019 年 11 月 17 日 上午 10:28
(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr 2019 年 11 月 17 日 下午 5:00 
引用自 blowheaded
1) Claiming that Chara made pink outfit for Asgore. When clearly there nothing in game said that Chara made it or given to Asgore.
Well given where the sweater is, it had to be made by either Chara or Asriel, and Asriel probably wouldn't call his biological father, "Mr. Dad Guy".
引用自 blowheaded
5) Claiming that Chara kill them self by eating butter cup. This not even a fact and not even all that important.
Chara tells Asriel to bring them the buttercups. The entire story of Asgore getting sick from the flowers was just to setup Chara using them to kill themself.
引用自 blowheaded
7) Claiming that Chara give you flash back during Asriel fight. When in game text say that Frisk realize it instead. Even monster tell a story to Frisk about Asriel spend time with a Chara.
It's Chara's memory. . . :steamfacepalm:
Frisk never knew Asriel.
引用自 blowheaded
11) Claiming that Chara grave is a the beginning of the game. When no one in game said that Golden flower garden was a grave. This don't even proven any thing about them being good or bad.
So yeah this is a thing. They never explicitly say it, but the game gives you a lot of clues to realize it's where Chara is buried.

In True Lab, one of Alphys's entries states that the seeds of the golden flowers stick to skin and are hard to remove. So when Toriel buried Chara in the Ruins, Chara's body would have been covered in the seeds. Which means the bed of flowers at the start are growing off of Chara's corpse. This is also why both Toriel and Asriel go there after their battles. Presumably Asriel found out about this when Toriel's thoughts merged with his own during his God of Hyperdeath transformation.
最后由 (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr 编辑于; 2019 年 11 月 17 日 下午 5:01
Lostillusion 2019 年 11 月 17 日 下午 5:18 
引用自 Blowheaded
the part that Chara said since when you are in control.
The fact the game talks to the player in 2nd person was literally my entire point.

After Chara destroys the entire game world (with or without your help), who is he talking to then?

3.
引用自 Asriel

* Frisk...
* Why did you come here?
* Everyone knows the legend, right...?
* "Travellers who climb Mt. Ebott are said to disappear."
* Frisk.
* Why would you ever climb a mountain
like that?
* Was it foolishness?
* Was it fate?
* Or was it...
* Because you...?
* Well.
* Only you know the answer, don't you...?
* I know why Chara climbed the mountain.
* It wasn't for a very happy reason.
* Frisk.
* I'll be honest with you.
* Chara hated humanity.
* Why they did, they never talked about it.
Falling in might have been an accident, but climbing a cursed mountain isn't. Abuse isn't that far of a stretch, nither is suicide.

5.
引用自 Asriel in video

* What?
* Oh, yeah, I remember.
* When we tried to make butterscotch pie for Dad, right?
* The recipe asked for cups of butter...
* But we accidentally put in buttercups instead.
* Yeah!
* Those flowers got him really sick.
* I felt so bad.
* We made Mom really upset.
* I should have laughed it off, like you did...
* Um, anyway, where are you going with this?
* Huh?
* Turn off the camera...?
* OK.
* I... I don't like this idea,

* Wh.. what?
* N-no, I'm not...
* ... big kids don't cry.
* Yeah, you're right.
* No!
* I'd never doubt you, ...
* Never!
* Y... yeah!
* We'll be strong!
* We'll free everyone.
* I'll go get the flowers.
* Psst...
...
* Please... wake up...

Also fairly clear.
最后由 Lostillusion 编辑于; 2019 年 11 月 17 日 下午 5:20
Caused Storm 2019 年 11 月 20 日 上午 7:05 
in the story was told that chara hated the humans. and asgore said he knows that chara was abusing asriel to get out to the humans to kill them.

I understand what you mean, but im pretty sure she is evil, because by the genocide run she says that frisk awaken her and asked if frisk want to kill everything so that they are just together then she killed frisk
(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr 2019 年 11 月 20 日 上午 7:47 
引用自 iPixelHunter
in the story was told that chara hated the humans. and asgore said he knows that chara was abusing asriel to get out to the humans to kill them.
Asgore? I think you mean Asriel referring back to what happened on the surface? Asgore never says anything about Chara’s plan, since he never would have known about it.
TessaTwiTching 2019 年 11 月 22 日 上午 11:09 
I think that frisk started the genocide and while watching frisk kill her family and friends was driven crazy and when frisk tried to reset at sans chara forced frisk to keep going, telling her she had to finish. so really its frisk's fault. no one forces them to fight. also know that I have never done genocide my self, I have watched others do it, but I cant bring myself to join them.
undertalefan437 2019 年 11 月 26 日 上午 7:12 
引用自 gasterwing0
I think that frisk started the genocide and while watching frisk kill her family and friends was driven crazy and when frisk tried to reset at sans chara forced frisk to keep going, telling her she had to finish. so really its frisk's fault. no one forces them to fight. also know that I have never done genocide my self, I have watched others do it, but I cant bring myself to join them.

Or, like what I was saying, like, 50-something comments back: My theory is that DETERMINATION is a powerful force, but it can also corrupt you if you aren't prepared for it. The more you level up throughout the Genocide run, the more the Player's DETERMINATION is corrupting Chara, up until you meet them, where they are now a completely different Person/Being than what they were before.

Though, I don't know if this is true, so for now it is only speculation.

It's just a theory. A Game Theory!
(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr 2019 年 11 月 26 日 上午 7:45 
引用自 gasterwing0
I think that frisk started the genocide and while watching frisk kill her family and friends was driven crazy and when frisk tried to reset at sans chara forced frisk to keep going, telling her she had to finish. so really its frisk's fault. no one forces them to fight. also know that I have never done genocide my self, I have watched others do it, but I cant bring myself to join them.
Well Flowey’s speech upon getting the option to True Reset implies that Frisk is really little more than a puppet being controlled by you. Flowey believes that you are the first human, but we learn this isn’t the case either by the end of the genocide route.

Together these two endings indicate that the player is a separate entity, and that the Red Soul is our soul, and not Frisk’s or the first human’s. This is also told to us almost immediately in Deltarune.

Frisk was a human that fell into the Underground that we take control of for some unknown reason. The level of violence and execution points we acquire, for some reason are also given to the first human, or whatever remains of them.

As we play through the genocide route, the first human becomes more corrupted by our actions. Eventually, they realize like us that Undertale is nothing but a game, and that ending the world, or any good or bad ending doesn’t ultimately matter. The first human becomes the fallen human, they begin see you attempting to reset and play through the game again as being pointless, and suggest you move on to something else instead. And so they take away your happy ending to mock your “perverted sentimentality”, because they can and it no longer matters to them, because it’s just a game.
Soundless1997 2019 年 11 月 26 日 上午 10:05 
引用自 gasterwing0
I think that frisk started the genocide and while watching frisk kill her family and friends was driven crazy and when frisk tried to reset at sans chara forced frisk to keep going, telling her she had to finish. so really its frisk's fault. no one forces them to fight. also know that I have never done genocide my self, I have watched others do it, but I cant bring myself to join them.
Well Flowey’s speech upon getting the option to True Reset implies that Frisk is really little more than a puppet being controlled by you. Flowey believes that you are the first human, but we learn this isn’t the case either by the end of the genocide route.

Together these two endings indicate that the player is a separate entity, and that the Red Soul is our soul, and not Frisk’s or the first human’s. This is also told to us almost immediately in Deltarune.

Frisk was a human that fell into the Underground that we take control of for some unknown reason. The level of violence and execution points we acquire, for some reason are also given to the first human, or whatever remains of them.

As we play through the genocide route, the first human becomes more corrupted by our actions. Eventually, they realize like us that Undertale is nothing but a game, and that ending the world, or any good or bad ending doesn’t ultimately matter. The first human becomes the fallen human, they begin see you attempting to reset and play through the game again as being pointless, and suggest you move on to something else instead. And so they take away your happy ending to mock your “perverted sentimentality”, because they can and it no longer matters to them, because it’s just a game.
I remember about a year ago how much I used to hate that so much. The fact that the first human permanently alters the True Pacifist ending after completing the Genocide Route literally gave me the wrong idea of thinking they're the worst for doing that.
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发帖日期: 2019 年 10 月 17 日 下午 5:06
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