*SPOILERS* The Hypocrisy of Undertale (And Toby Fox)

[BlazingRaven495]

SPOILERS! DO NOT READ THIS UNLESS YOU HAVE BEATEN UNDERTALE IN ALL POSSIBLE WAYS.

I have played and beaten Undertale every which way and there is a serious hypocrisy about it.
The Pacifist Run rewards you, obviously.
And the Genocide Run (AKA No Mercy Run) punishes you.

But here is the hypocrisy...and for the record...i enjoyed this game...sans Sans (ROTFLMAO)

When you beat the True Pacifist Run, you get a beautiful ending and a True Reset is possible so that you can start all over and make another run. For me, I went Pacifist first, True Reset, and the Genocide Run. Finally, after the annoying bonehead called Sans, I finally made it.
It was a great job by Toby Fox for making a freakish ending and how the game is a perpetual 4th wall-breaker.

But after going through all the rigmarole (not rigger-marole) of selling my SOUL and playing the pacifist run again, I was greeted with the awesome but freakish ending because I sold my soul...the so-called Soulless Pacifist Run...then came a true reset. Lovely. Except. IT DIDN'T WORK! After some research, I found that doing the genocide route and selling your soul makes a permanent flag in your save files so that any future pacifist or genocide runs are affected and true reset cannot save you. Only by deleting your files and reloading can you get back to normal. A good lesson in morality...but with one hypocrisy.

Completing the True Pacifist run makes no such flag and does not affect future pacifist or genocide run. Wouldn't that have been cool if the game gave you a special ending for going pacifist first and then genocide? Toby, You made this game punish me permanently for killing everyone. And you gave us no reward for doing everything right? Don't get me wrong...it was cool and interesting...but not at the expense of basically eliminating the "game" in this video game. And yes, I know that's the POINT! But can we get back to playing games...for the game.

I know...it's just my opinion...but seriously. For a game that had so many 4th wall breaking moments, I'm surprised that's not a option.

[motel6fan]

I agree in every way. I have done the same.

[Hawke]

Personally, I see it as a reflection on human nature on Toby's part, and a really well done one at that. Though I may be projecting my own impressions.
It seems to me that in life, as in the game, people will quickly forget the good things you've done if you ever wrong them. The wrongs are remembered forever, even if someone says they forgive you they won't forget.
I've been guilty of this pattern of behavior enough to recognize it and attempt to address it but most people seem not to realize.
Have you never had a fight with a close friend or family memeber and brought up something they did a long time ago that hurt/upset you/someone and that they'd thought everyone had forgiven them for?
I feel like it's the same idea.

I don't think this needs spoiler tags, personally, but if you disagree please let me know.

[BlazingRaven495]

Originally posted by Xyconis:

Personally, I see it as a reflection on human nature on Toby's part, and a really well done one at that. Though I may be projecting my own impressions.
It seems to me that in life, as in the game, people will quickly forget the good things you've done if you ever wrong them. The wrongs are remembered forever, even if someone says they forgive you they won't forget.
I've been guilty of this pattern of behavior enough to recognize it and attempt to address it but most people seem not to realize.
Have you never had a fight with a close friend or family memeber and brought up something they did a long time ago that hurt/upset you/someone and that they'd thought everyone had forgiven them for?
I feel like it's the same idea.

I don't think this needs spoiler tags, personally, but if you disagree please let me know.

Well, my spoilers are pretty complex and would be bad for those not yet completed the Geno run

I see your point and you make it good. But while it is an important lesson that Bad moments in a person's life affect how they are viewed, I think it is just as important that good moments count for something too...maybe even moreso. And even I admitted, Toby Fox was very deliberate about his design of the plot and the game's morality system and 4th wall breaking.

But i was more talking about it in terms of the game as a video game. Unless Toby himself came out and said that this is less a game and more a visual novel, then i will rest my case. I just thought the Pacifist run deserved more aftermath content game wise...so to speak. Maybe like the "Redemption Run" lol

And given how people love playing games like this to get every possible ending and outcome, i just think the addition or update of an Ultimate Reset to fully clear everything would be nice...or at least conveneient instead of uninstalling or file altering...which for a not-so-tech savvy person might be a headache. It's good the first time around as the player sees how their actions have consequences, but after that they just want to start all over from scratch...for fun. Becuase this is still a video game.

[Hawke]

Originally posted by Raven IronClaw:

Well, my spoilers are pretty complex and would be bad for those not yet completed the Geno run

I see your point and you make it good. But while it is an important lesson that Bad moments in a person's life affect how they are viewed, I think it is just as important that good moments count for something too...maybe even moreso. And even I admitted, Toby Fox was very deliberate about his design of the plot and the game's morality system and 4th wall breaking.

But i was more talking about it in terms of the game as a video game. Unless Toby himself came out and said that this is less a game and more a visual novel, then i will rest my case. I just thought the Pacifist run deserved more aftermath content game wise...so to speak. Maybe like the "Redemption Run" lol

And given how people love playing games like this to get every possible ending and outcome, i just think the addition or update of an Ultimate Reset to fully clear everything would be nice...or at least conveneient instead of uninstalling or file altering...which for a not-so-tech savvy person might be a headache. It's good the first time around as the player sees how their actions have consequences, but after that they just want to start all over from scratch...for fun. Becuase this is still a video game.

I see what you mean and I can see why others would feel that way.
As a game, yes a "redemption" or other style of ending would be neat, but considering that the game is so deeply impedded in this idea of everything being connected that it almost wouldn't feel right to me to have that sort of ending.

Then again I'm one of those players who started a geno run, got to a certain someone, exhausted the dialogue, but didn't have the heart to actually kill them when I finally got to that point and ended up deleting everything on the spot and restarting again.

So maybe I'm emotionally biased lol.

[Orderan]

Ever heard this bit of popular wisdom (slightly altered but same idea)
"Be great 500 times and nobody will notice, f*ck up once and everybody will remember it ?"

It's the same here.

[HavocTheMushroom]

you know, it's been repeated throughout history that if a person does something good, it will be remembered for a while. but after a while it kind of fades off. now if you do something horrible after the good thing, like killing an entire species, people will not forget that. i think the punishment is perfectly reasonable. don't kill, and don't be killed :D

[Exarch_Alpha]

In the rules of the universe evil determination is simply more powerful than determination for good. That´s why you can kill Undyne, but not Chara and why the bad ending can´t be reverted.

The question is if there should be a choice to spank Chara or not. Toby decided no, I can understand his message.

[HavocTheMushroom]

Originally posted by Exarch_Alpha:

In the rules of the universe evil determination is simply more powerful than determination for good. That´s why you can kill Undyne, but not Chara and why the bad ending can´t be reverted.

The question is if there should be a choice to spank Chara or not. Toby decided no, I can understand his message.

uh...it's not more powerful, it's just undyne was a monster that couldn't handle enough determination. she only had a little bit. you, with good DT, stopped asriel from blowing up the world, (probably) refused your soul, and SAVED all your friends. i think that is qualified as powerful.

[Exarch_Alpha]

It wasn´t your determination that stoped Asriel, but making he remember who he was. Not very relevant.

[HavocTheMushroom]

Originally posted by Exarch_Alpha:

It wasn´t your determination that stoped Asriel, but making he remember who he was. Not very relevant.

...rly. so when he hyper-blasts your face, and your DT saves you at 0.000000001 health, or when you come back to life like 23,864 times when killed at any point in time, or any other time when your DETERMINATION saves you from utter doom, it's not very relevant. genius.

[BlazingRaven495]

Originally posted by Orderan:

Ever heard this bit of popular wisdom (slightly altered but same idea)
"Be great 500 times and nobody will notice, f*ck up once and everybody will remember it ?"

It's the same here.

A fanstastic point...even obvious in a way. But what I find funny is that as much as many will say this, they never seem to go outside the cliche.

Toby Fox's message was great...but it's been done before. It would be a refreshing shock to find someone who made some crazy plot twists that went the other way. I mean even Sans gives you a chance at redemption. But I would have loved to a Pacifist-then-Genocide run which had Frisk VS Chara to end it all (maybe which would start by refusing to join him)

Although, admittedly, The Pacifist run is so pacifist to the point of even ruling out legitimate self-defense, that Toby did shock me there. Although at the same time, it showed that the people of the underground were not uterly heartless or hateful to humans.