Sans Isn’t a Hero in Any Sense of the Word (Discussion/Long text)

[Crystalitar]

DISCLAIMER! The following text is taken from a post on tumblr, i just thought it to be an interesting enough view to discuss it and share it here. These are not my words.

TL;DR : Sans is not having an heroistic battle with you as much as people want to believe.

now without further ado. (and some effort in formatting)

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Sans Isn’t a Hero in Any Sense of the Word

I was willing to be quiet about the amount of Sans♥♥♥♥♥kissing in the fandom, but a certain Youtuber dropped a vocal Megalovania cover and the comments are horrible. It’s not people who ship Fell!Sans and Swap!Sans, or love Bitty!Sans, or replace everyone in Undertale with Sans. It’s not that type of Sans♥♥♥♥♥kissing. It’s people calling Sans “the epitome of good”, “the hero of the No Mercy run”, “striking you down with righteous fury”, etc. etc. etc.

Among the larger group of Undertale fans, even people who liked the game in 2015 and haven’t given it a single thought since then, there exists this insidious idea that Sans is this hero of justice, this calculating genius, this suave man with hidden (sexy?) emotional depths under his lazy front. We see art of Sans crying over a dusty red scarf in the No Mercy run. We get AUs (like Glitchtale) where Sans is the main scientist that everyone respects rather than Alphys (we even see Gaster replacing her in Glitchtale, but that’s another grievance to nail to another church door). We see art of Sans killing that evil, nasty Chara with his eye burning blue flame while the light of God shines down on this chosen, sexy Christ figure who brings nothing but justice and good!

What we have in canon is a fat, lazy skeleton who makes puns and willingly lets you kill everyone he’s ever known and loved because he’s too sad to try and stop you.

How the hell did we all get it so wrong?

I want to deconstruct these ideas one by one. Feel free to add on to this post or correct any mistakes i make. If you don’t want to read any further, just leave this post with this idea: Sans is not a hero or even a great person; he does not protect you, Papyrus, or anyone; he is not the smartest, strongest, or best character in Undertale by any means.

1. “Sans is emotional in his fight with the human!”/”Sans is just in his fight with the human!”

   This is what kills me the most is hearing vocal covers of Megalovania from Sans’s POV where he’s like, screaming and shouting and even on the verge of tears. Did we play the same fight? The one I saw was this: he stood there with the same♥♥♥♥♥♥eating grin he always has, dodging using the least effort possible (moving to the side). You can tell he hates you based on how he mocks you and especially at the end when he finally loses his cool and throws your SOUL all around, but he doesn’t threaten you or curse at you or mourn how he “couldn’t protect them” (like in that cover). He stands there and tells you he hasn’t given a♥♥♥♥♥♥for most of his life and the only reason he’s giving a♥♥♥♥♥♥now is to save his own♥♥♥♥♥– not Asgore, not Flowey, certainly not Papyrus. Because he knows that an ‘anomaly’, who he believes to be you, will ‘end everything’. If that happens, he dies too.
   
   I will reiterate: Sans could have stopped you at any time, but he instead sat back and let you kill everyone. People might say it’s because of his ‘promise’ to Toriel, but let’s be honest: how much of that was sheer apathy?
   
   Let’s look to the Pacifist route for evidence. He promised to protect you and help you, but all he really does is make jokes, stack hot dogs on your head, and tell you- a child- outright that he wanted to murder you in cold blood. He doesn’t defend you from monsters, who spend 99% of the game just whaling on Frisk like it’s their damn job- and he doesn’t guide your path (like Alphys), and he doesn’t give emotional support like Papyrus (on the phone and in person), and he doesn’t even bother to spend any real quality time with you at all besides taking you to Grillby’s and asking if you know about a talking flower. Sans does the minimal amount of work to scrape by in any situation; Undyne says so herself in a call. Considering how ♥♥♥♥♥♥ he is at keeping his promise in Pacifist, why should we assume he has an iron will in No Mercy?
   
   Sans knows about the anomaly and is banking on the fact that you’ll just reset and start over when you kill Papyrus or someone else that Sans cares about. If you killed Papyrus by accident or whatever, it would be a huge waste of energy for Sans to come kick your♥♥♥♥♥instead of just having a smoothie and then seeing you in the next timeline. He doesn’t necessarily stand there and watch you kill Papyrus because of his ‘promise’, it’s because of his apathy. This doesn’t mean he doesn’t love Papyrus, but it means he views life- his own life and others’ lives- as worthless.
   
   Expanding on that point, Sans’s main personality trait is that he’s given up because of his knowledge about the anomaly. Since he views his and other’s lives as pointless, there’s no reason for him to get emotional. All the headcanons where Sans cries over Papyrus’s scarf and wears it during the fight and blah blah blah: just plain wrong. What’s the point in having a crying fit if the anomaly could send him back to having a pun duel with Papyrus any minute?
   
   If you want a hero who smiles in death, Undyne is right there. If you want a hero who does everything to save life despite their depression, Alphys is right there. If you want someone who has so much love in their heart that they spare you despite knowing the consequences of doing it, Papyrus is right there. These are all characters who make a genuine, memorable contribution to the No Mercy route in their own unique way. What these characters do in this time of strife defines them: Undyne shows her selflessness and bravery; Alphys shows her willingness to overcome her fear of her past and others to save life; Papyrus shows his empathy and unwillingness to let anyone feel like they have no chance to be a better person.
   
   So what defines Sans? Laziness and petty anger.
   hell, he says it himself. "or is that just a poor excuse for being lazy?"
   Yes, Megalovania is an epic song, but there’s no reason for Sans to be singing such emotional lyrics to it. In fact, Megalovania may be the most epic part of the fight.
   
   

2. “The Sans fight is meant to be a climactic battle between good and evil!”

   
   Christ, no.
   
   Okay, let’s put it in context. You’re on a power rush. Mettaton NEO had the stats and HP to make him the strongest boss in the game. He confronts you in his form that’s designed to eradicate humanity. You kill him in one hit.
   
   Prior to that, you’ve killed legions of monsters in one hit– you’ve killed anyone who could be a threat to you. You’ve killed the hero of every monster, Undyne, who rightfully became this JRPG Heroine who gathered the power of Everyone’s Hopes to kill you, the Final Boss. Even Flowey, who’s caused the player hell in some past timelines, is terrified of you.
   
   Then here stands this dumb little cartoon skeleton, who you only know as having made dumb jokes in past runs. He only has 1 attack and 1 defense! How hard can it be?
   
   And then, of course, he kicks your♥♥♥♥♥ He taunts you to infuriate you. He does anything he can to trick you. He murders an 8 year old in cold blood over and over, not out of some sense of heroism, but out of petty revenge and schadenfreude.
   
   It’s meant to be an anticlimax. The fight is a long, slow slog that takes hours upon hours of tries to come even close to winning. It’s meant to be unenjoyable.There’s no epic angry Sans trying his hardest to kill you. There’s no Sans crying with rage, his eye burning blue flame (sidenote: it only flashes blue/yellow like once or twice, you cowards). There’s no grand prize waiting for you. There’s none of that. He’s standing there, telling you directly to give up. Only a fool would tax their own mental health to try and win a nigh-unwinnable fight against a boss who doesn’t give a♥♥♥♥♥♥about you. If he makes the fight enjoyable for you, then you’ll be motivated to complete it and kill him, which he doesn’t want. Besides his numbness, that’s why he’s not screaming and crying and singing about righteous fury. Making you reset is the only chance he has.
   
   Yes, there is the ‘karma’ aspect of his fight that makes people think he’s some angelic hero backed by God, but that’s not really explained at all. It’s really just poison damage. I don’t think we can say that using it makes Sans a hero.
   
   

3. Sans protects his brother/Sans is a genius/Papyrus is abusive???/etc

   
   Ah, yes, Sans protects his brother, doodoo the fool, who has never done anything right in his life. Papyrus never got Sans that job to begin with; Papyrus doesn’t maintain the house while Sans lays around; Papyrus doesn’t train his hardest and doesn’t wind up a valued and loved member of the community despite his eccentricities. Papyrus is just a precious little babby who’s innocent uwu
   
   ♥♥♥♥ off. Listen. Sans and Papyrus help each other and they hurt each other, like siblings do. I’ve recently started to see people say that Papyrus is abusive to Sans?? For calling him lazy all the time??? Oooooh, but Sans is sensitive about being lazy because he’s depressed! uwu
   
   You ♥♥♥♥ off too. Sans really, really doesn’t care about that. He knows he’s lazy: he consciously chose to give up. I’ve been so depressed I feel numb, like I want to kill myself but I can’t even make the effort. That type of brotherly negging doesn’t come close to bothering me. If someone called Sans lazy, he would agree with you and go about his day.
   
   He doesn’t protect his brother in any great sense. He threatens you verbally but otherwise lets him die. Papyrus is very eccentric and misses a lot of things, but he is also quite intelligent (here’s a good post I recommend[archiveofourown.org]). What Sans does do is undervalue Papyrus’s efforts, along with Undyne, because they both think he’s too ‘innocent’. In that sense, he hurts Papyrus just as much as Papyrus could possibly hurt him by calling him lazy. That doesn’t make him abusive, in turn. It just means they’re realistically flawed characters. They do a lot to help each other, too, to where I couldn't say one depends on the other more, but that’s a post for another day.
   
   Regarding the ‘dont forget’ picture, which people theorize is a picture of Sans, Papyrus and Gaster: what do you think is stopping him from sharing it with Papyrus? Does he think the information will hurt or scare him? Will telling someone about Gaster physically kill them because he doesn’t exist? It’s emotional vulnerability, and Sans is scared of that, so he keeps the knowledge to himself. It’s another way of viewing Papyrus as somehow more innocent, and if Papyrus had a connection to Gaster too (he and Sans presumably lived and maybe worked side-by-side, during which time at least Sans had to interact with Gaster), it’s selfish in principle not to share it, unless Gaster explicitly didn’t want him to– which isn’t stated at all.
   
   Related to that, I also see people saying Sans is this tragic genius. This fallen assistant of Dr Gaster who carries on his work in secret and is a better scientist than Alphys. I even see people crediting Alphys’s accomplishments to Sans. That makes my blood boil. Alphys is just as quirky as any other UT character, but she’s also just as competent. The reason she doesn’t get doted on like Sans is because she’s female. Look at her: she’s quirky, smart, and depressed. She has a tragic backstory in a horrible accident that resulted in a loss of life (in a sense– the Amalgamates are kind of alive). How is that different from how people portray Sans? It’s because somehow people find Sans more ‘♥♥♥♥able’ because they’ve never looked at his sprite in their life, apparently.
   
   We don’t know how much to the CORE Sans might have contributed or how much he knows. In that light, it doesn’t make sense to credit him so highly. What we do know is that he likes sci-fi, “especially when it’s real,” and he has a lab in the basement. So when people make him out to be this genius who makes Alphys look like booboo the clown, it just… it’s only from headcanon based around making him sexier.
   
   This doesn’t even touch on the fact that Sans doesn’t remember resets but just fills in the blanks by reading your expression and bluffing. I’m cutting this short because I feel like I’m in danger of repeating myself. Again, please feel free to add to or correct this post with actual canon information.

The Bottom Line[78.media.tumblr.com]
(This picture is a joke. I know Sans is a full character with his own flaws like anyone else in UT. My point isn’t that he’s a horrible person or that I just want to bash him- I like Sans, in fact- my point is that he has flaws and very selfish reasons for fighting you and he doesn’t deserve most of the praise he’s given.)
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Imo an interesting read.
Add to that the recent realization that you can play the whole game without actively bonding with him as most quirky stuff from his are from bonus scenes you initiate if you choose to.

Original post on tumblr [officiallilith.tumblr.com]

[Mother of Exiles]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Meme Smith:

Sans is not a hero, he gave up trying ages ago and you do 90% of the work, if not more. Then he let's you get powerful when if he knew about timelines, why did he *not* kill you out the door? Promise or no, he is a royal guard. For someone who give 0 cares about the people around him except his brother, he likes to judge you for your sins. I mean why did he not kill you and pair up with undyne? At that point you'd die too. So no, he is a self riteous judgmental sloth who let's you do everything.

I don't think he gave up trying at all, if he did. Then why would he even do as much as he has?
He knew of timelines, yeah, though doesn't know how powerful you are or what you're like.
"He is a royal guard" And? Not a good point there.
He seems to give moe cares about the people around him than just his brother.
He only seems to like it when you start gaining a lot of those sins, besides then as far as I know, he only really judges you twice, judgement hall and neutral endings.
That can go with literally any of the other main characters. "Why did x not pair up with x? At that point you'd die too"
To be honest, you're making me thinkg about it more, and I do kinda think he is a hero in his own right.
While not everything is black and white, I don't see him as having given up at all, and even with his knowledge, he still tried to be your friend.

[Jomackson]

Tell me, if a kid killed your brother, was covered in the gore of your kind, and killed many people without a single reason, would you be their friend? Undyne was the hero. She is what he wasn't. She acted, he sat and watched. He sat and let you do everything to his people. If he did not give up, why does he even state in a trance of never knowing you what is the point. He gave up, his only ties are Torial and Paps, and I would not be entirely suprised if his absence from the rest until his fight was feeling sorry for himself, instead of avenging the dead and siding with the Heroine. He is no hero, he had the power to end it, but cared too little to use it.

[Mother of Exiles]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Meme Smith:

Tell me, if a kid killed your brother, was covered in the gore of your kind, and killed many people without a single reason, would you be their friend?

Though he never tried to be out friend in genocide, So, that argument doesn't work.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Meme Smith:

Undyne was the hero. She is what he wasn't. She acted, he sat and watched.

Actually, lets think on it. He isn't that strong, compared to Undyne, now. She was powerful enough to survive for that long with determination. He'd be an idiot to just run in like she did, and it woull kill him.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Meme Smith:

If he did not give up, why does he even state in a trance of never knowing you what is the point.

All of them are at their worst, but that isn't who they are.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Meme Smith:

He gave up, his only ties are Torial and Paps, and I would not be entirely suprised if his absence from the rest until his fight was feeling sorry for himself, instead of avenging the dead and siding with the Heroine. He is no hero, he had the power to end it, but cared too little to use it.

"Feeling sorry for himself" Oh you'd be gun-ho after losing the person closest to you, and then lets not forget IT WAS NOT AT ALL LONG AFTER when Undyne died, so what you are saying is that right after his brother was killed, he should just be able to stand up and fight, no. ♥♥♥♥ that.

[Jomackson]

A hero rises to help those in need in anything. He isn't heroic, aka sum of this thread. I get tired of discussing this stuff now, because it goes no where, and you clearly don't know what it means to be heroic.

[Broken Viking]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Meme Smith:

A hero rises to help those in need in anything. He isn't heroic, aka sum of this thread. I get tired of discussing this stuff now, because it goes no where, and you clearly don't know what it means to be heroic.

The people who evacuated? We still don’t know EXACTLY what happened

[Mother of Exiles]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Meme Smith:

A hero rises to help those in need in anything. He isn't heroic, aka sum of this thread. I get tired of discussing this stuff now, because it goes no where, and you clearly don't know what it means to be heroic.

We have two different meanings of hero. I would say you have such a flat and simple view of what a hero is. Take Asgore for example, a lot of people hate him, but I consider him to be heroic.

Really it goes no where because well, I said it best previously in the thread.

Oprindeligt skrevet af A Small Cup:

what is defined as a "hero" is EXTREMELY subjective. Often just gonna allign with your own moral compass and what you see as good.

So, I see Sans as a hero.

[Broken Viking]

Oprindeligt skrevet af A Small Cup:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Meme Smith:

A hero rises to help those in need in anything. He isn't heroic, aka sum of this thread. I get tired of discussing this stuff now, because it goes no where, and you clearly don't know what it means to be heroic.

We have two different meanings of hero. I would say you have such a flat and simple view of what a hero is. Take Asgore for example, a lot of people hate him, but I consider him to be heroic.

Really it goes no where because well, I said it best previously in the thread.

Oprindeligt skrevet af A Small Cup:

what is defined as a "hero" is EXTREMELY subjective. Often just gonna allign with your own moral compass and what you see as good.

So, I see Sans as a hero.

So, I forgot who it was, (cause I don’t want to go back a page) but someone said that a hero defends others, and I’ve said this before, but there are those who evacuated. With that ima unsub from this talk, gl y’all
Edit: how do I unsubscribe???

[Mother of Exiles]

Oprindeligt skrevet af MasterRaptor911:

Oprindeligt skrevet af A Small Cup:

We have two different meanings of hero. I would say you have such a flat and simple view of what a hero is. Take Asgore for example, a lot of people hate him, but I consider him to be heroic.

Really it goes no where because well, I said it best previously in the thread.



So, I see Sans as a hero.

So, I forgot who it was, (cause I don’t want to go back a page) but someone said that a hero defends others, and I’ve said this before, but there are those who evacuated. With that ima unsub from this talk, gl y’all
Edit: how do I unsubscribe???

Scroll up to the top and you should see an "unsubscribe from thie discussion button

[Broken Viking]

ok thanks

[ψ -No.23-]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Crystalitar - NYEH - SHINY:

DISCLAIMER! The following text is taken from a post on tumblr, i just thought it to be an interesting enough view to discuss it and share it here. These are not my words.

TL;DR : Sans is not having an heroistic battle with you as much as people want to believe.

now without further ado. (and some effort in formatting)

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Sans Isn’t a Hero in Any Sense of the Word

I was willing to be quiet about the amount of Sans♥♥♥♥♥kissing in the fandom, but a certain Youtuber dropped a vocal Megalovania cover and the comments are horrible. It’s not people who ship Fell!Sans and Swap!Sans, or love Bitty!Sans, or replace everyone in Undertale with Sans. It’s not that type of Sans♥♥♥♥♥kissing. It’s people calling Sans “the epitome of good”, “the hero of the No Mercy run”, “striking you down with righteous fury”, etc. etc. etc.

Among the larger group of Undertale fans, even people who liked the game in 2015 and haven’t given it a single thought since then, there exists this insidious idea that Sans is this hero of justice, this calculating genius, this suave man with hidden (sexy?) emotional depths under his lazy front. We see art of Sans crying over a dusty red scarf in the No Mercy run. We get AUs (like Glitchtale) where Sans is the main scientist that everyone respects rather than Alphys (we even see Gaster replacing her in Glitchtale, but that’s another grievance to nail to another church door). We see art of Sans killing that evil, nasty Chara with his eye burning blue flame while the light of God shines down on this chosen, sexy Christ figure who brings nothing but justice and good!

What we have in canon is a fat, lazy skeleton who makes puns and willingly lets you kill everyone he’s ever known and loved because he’s too sad to try and stop you.

How the hell did we all get it so wrong?

I want to deconstruct these ideas one by one. Feel free to add on to this post or correct any mistakes i make. If you don’t want to read any further, just leave this post with this idea: Sans is not a hero or even a great person; he does not protect you, Papyrus, or anyone; he is not the smartest, strongest, or best character in Undertale by any means.

1. “Sans is emotional in his fight with the human!”/”Sans is just in his fight with the human!”

   This is what kills me the most is hearing vocal covers of Megalovania from Sans’s POV where he’s like, screaming and shouting and even on the verge of tears. Did we play the same fight? The one I saw was this: he stood there with the same♥♥♥♥♥♥eating grin he always has, dodging using the least effort possible (moving to the side). You can tell he hates you based on how he mocks you and especially at the end when he finally loses his cool and throws your SOUL all around, but he doesn’t threaten you or curse at you or mourn how he “couldn’t protect them” (like in that cover). He stands there and tells you he hasn’t given a♥♥♥♥♥♥for most of his life and the only reason he’s giving a♥♥♥♥♥♥now is to save his own♥♥♥♥♥– not Asgore, not Flowey, certainly not Papyrus. Because he knows that an ‘anomaly’, who he believes to be you, will ‘end everything’. If that happens, he dies too.
   
   I will reiterate: Sans could have stopped you at any time, but he instead sat back and let you kill everyone. People might say it’s because of his ‘promise’ to Toriel, but let’s be honest: how much of that was sheer apathy?
   
   Let’s look to the Pacifist route for evidence. He promised to protect you and help you, but all he really does is make jokes, stack hot dogs on your head, and tell you- a child- outright that he wanted to murder you in cold blood. He doesn’t defend you from monsters, who spend 99% of the game just whaling on Frisk like it’s their damn job- and he doesn’t guide your path (like Alphys), and he doesn’t give emotional support like Papyrus (on the phone and in person), and he doesn’t even bother to spend any real quality time with you at all besides taking you to Grillby’s and asking if you know about a talking flower. Sans does the minimal amount of work to scrape by in any situation; Undyne says so herself in a call. Considering how ♥♥♥♥♥♥ he is at keeping his promise in Pacifist, why should we assume he has an iron will in No Mercy?
   
   Sans knows about the anomaly and is banking on the fact that you’ll just reset and start over when you kill Papyrus or someone else that Sans cares about. If you killed Papyrus by accident or whatever, it would be a huge waste of energy for Sans to come kick your♥♥♥♥♥instead of just having a smoothie and then seeing you in the next timeline. He doesn’t necessarily stand there and watch you kill Papyrus because of his ‘promise’, it’s because of his apathy. This doesn’t mean he doesn’t love Papyrus, but it means he views life- his own life and others’ lives- as worthless.
   
   Expanding on that point, Sans’s main personality trait is that he’s given up because of his knowledge about the anomaly. Since he views his and other’s lives as pointless, there’s no reason for him to get emotional. All the headcanons where Sans cries over Papyrus’s scarf and wears it during the fight and blah blah blah: just plain wrong. What’s the point in having a crying fit if the anomaly could send him back to having a pun duel with Papyrus any minute?
   
   If you want a hero who smiles in death, Undyne is right there. If you want a hero who does everything to save life despite their depression, Alphys is right there. If you want someone who has so much love in their heart that they spare you despite knowing the consequences of doing it, Papyrus is right there. These are all characters who make a genuine, memorable contribution to the No Mercy route in their own unique way. What these characters do in this time of strife defines them: Undyne shows her selflessness and bravery; Alphys shows her willingness to overcome her fear of her past and others to save life; Papyrus shows his empathy and unwillingness to let anyone feel like they have no chance to be a better person.
   
   So what defines Sans? Laziness and petty anger.
   hell, he says it himself. "or is that just a poor excuse for being lazy?"
   Yes, Megalovania is an epic song, but there’s no reason for Sans to be singing such emotional lyrics to it. In fact, Megalovania may be the most epic part of the fight.
   
   

2. “The Sans fight is meant to be a climactic battle between good and evil!”

   
   Christ, no.
   
   Okay, let’s put it in context. You’re on a power rush. Mettaton NEO had the stats and HP to make him the strongest boss in the game. He confronts you in his form that’s designed to eradicate humanity. You kill him in one hit.
   
   Prior to that, you’ve killed legions of monsters in one hit– you’ve killed anyone who could be a threat to you. You’ve killed the hero of every monster, Undyne, who rightfully became this JRPG Heroine who gathered the power of Everyone’s Hopes to kill you, the Final Boss. Even Flowey, who’s caused the player hell in some past timelines, is terrified of you.
   
   Then here stands this dumb little cartoon skeleton, who you only know as having made dumb jokes in past runs. He only has 1 attack and 1 defense! How hard can it be?
   
   And then, of course, he kicks your♥♥♥♥♥ He taunts you to infuriate you. He does anything he can to trick you. He murders an 8 year old in cold blood over and over, not out of some sense of heroism, but out of petty revenge and schadenfreude.
   
   It’s meant to be an anticlimax. The fight is a long, slow slog that takes hours upon hours of tries to come even close to winning. It’s meant to be unenjoyable.There’s no epic angry Sans trying his hardest to kill you. There’s no Sans crying with rage, his eye burning blue flame (sidenote: it only flashes blue/yellow like once or twice, you cowards). There’s no grand prize waiting for you. There’s none of that. He’s standing there, telling you directly to give up. Only a fool would tax their own mental health to try and win a nigh-unwinnable fight against a boss who doesn’t give a♥♥♥♥♥♥about you. If he makes the fight enjoyable for you, then you’ll be motivated to complete it and kill him, which he doesn’t want. Besides his numbness, that’s why he’s not screaming and crying and singing about righteous fury. Making you reset is the only chance he has.
   
   Yes, there is the ‘karma’ aspect of his fight that makes people think he’s some angelic hero backed by God, but that’s not really explained at all. It’s really just poison damage. I don’t think we can say that using it makes Sans a hero.
   
   

3. Sans protects his brother/Sans is a genius/Papyrus is abusive???/etc

   
   Ah, yes, Sans protects his brother, doodoo the fool, who has never done anything right in his life. Papyrus never got Sans that job to begin with; Papyrus doesn’t maintain the house while Sans lays around; Papyrus doesn’t train his hardest and doesn’t wind up a valued and loved member of the community despite his eccentricities. Papyrus is just a precious little babby who’s innocent uwu
   
   ♥♥♥♥ off. Listen. Sans and Papyrus help each other and they hurt each other, like siblings do. I’ve recently started to see people say that Papyrus is abusive to Sans?? For calling him lazy all the time??? Oooooh, but Sans is sensitive about being lazy because he’s depressed! uwu
   
   You ♥♥♥♥ off too. Sans really, really doesn’t care about that. He knows he’s lazy: he consciously chose to give up. I’ve been so depressed I feel numb, like I want to kill myself but I can’t even make the effort. That type of brotherly negging doesn’t come close to bothering me. If someone called Sans lazy, he would agree with you and go about his day.
   
   He doesn’t protect his brother in any great sense. He threatens you verbally but otherwise lets him die. Papyrus is very eccentric and misses a lot of things, but he is also quite intelligent (here’s a good post I recommend[archiveofourown.org]). What Sans does do is undervalue Papyrus’s efforts, along with Undyne, because they both think he’s too ‘innocent’. In that sense, he hurts Papyrus just as much as Papyrus could possibly hurt him by calling him lazy. That doesn’t make him abusive, in turn. It just means they’re realistically flawed characters. They do a lot to help each other, too, to where I couldn't say one depends on the other more, but that’s a post for another day.
   
   Regarding the ‘dont forget’ picture, which people theorize is a picture of Sans, Papyrus and Gaster: what do you think is stopping him from sharing it with Papyrus? Does he think the information will hurt or scare him? Will telling someone about Gaster physically kill them because he doesn’t exist? It’s emotional vulnerability, and Sans is scared of that, so he keeps the knowledge to himself. It’s another way of viewing Papyrus as somehow more innocent, and if Papyrus had a connection to Gaster too (he and Sans presumably lived and maybe worked side-by-side, during which time at least Sans had to interact with Gaster), it’s selfish in principle not to share it, unless Gaster explicitly didn’t want him to– which isn’t stated at all.
   
   Related to that, I also see people saying Sans is this tragic genius. This fallen assistant of Dr Gaster who carries on his work in secret and is a better scientist than Alphys. I even see people crediting Alphys’s accomplishments to Sans. That makes my blood boil. Alphys is just as quirky as any other UT character, but she’s also just as competent. The reason she doesn’t get doted on like Sans is because she’s female. Look at her: she’s quirky, smart, and depressed. She has a tragic backstory in a horrible accident that resulted in a loss of life (in a sense– the Amalgamates are kind of alive). How is that different from how people portray Sans? It’s because somehow people find Sans more ‘♥♥♥♥able’ because they’ve never looked at his sprite in their life, apparently.
   
   We don’t know how much to the CORE Sans might have contributed or how much he knows. In that light, it doesn’t make sense to credit him so highly. What we do know is that he likes sci-fi, “especially when it’s real,” and he has a lab in the basement. So when people make him out to be this genius who makes Alphys look like booboo the clown, it just… it’s only from headcanon based around making him sexier.
   
   This doesn’t even touch on the fact that Sans doesn’t remember resets but just fills in the blanks by reading your expression and bluffing. I’m cutting this short because I feel like I’m in danger of repeating myself. Again, please feel free to add to or correct this post with actual canon information.

The Bottom Line[78.media.tumblr.com]
(This picture is a joke. I know Sans is a full character with his own flaws like anyone else in UT. My point isn’t that he’s a horrible person or that I just want to bash him- I like Sans, in fact- my point is that he has flaws and very selfish reasons for fighting you and he doesn’t deserve most of the praise he’s given.)
"
-----------------------------------

Imo an interesting read.
Add to that the recent realization that you can play the whole game without actively bonding with him as most quirky stuff from his are from bonus scenes you initiate if you choose to.

Original post on tumblr [officiallilith.tumblr.com]

Yeah, finally evidence as to why Sans is not superior to every character of all time!

[guah]

Veeery late answer but here's my two cents: While I agree with a lot of what you (or the original tumblr poster) said, I do think you're giving him a bit too little credit. Before I start, I'll freely admit that I like Sans, but I'm not some Sans worshipper. He's not even my favorite character, that honour goes to Undyne, by a landslide. He might come in second depending on my mood, but I'd still choose most deltarune characters over him.
Now for the hero debate, I don't think he's a hero for most of the game, but I do think that he tries to be one at the end of the no mercy/genocide run.
All the characters have flaws in this game, they're not supposed to be perfect, you're supposed to help them be a better version of themselves, which you mostly do in a Pacifist run. It's the most clear in the lost souls part of the last battle: You help Undyne get over her anger, Alphys over her self hatred/anxiety, you help Toriel let go and Asgore to stop murdering kids. I'm actually not sure what you help Papyrus with, I think you mostly just give him friendship. And Sans? He tells you to just give up, like he has, his problems are, as the poster correctly said, apathy and depression.
And that makes sense. Sans is the only character except for Flowey and possibly to some extent Asgore who knows about the reset function. We know he researched it at some point in the past and that he now at the very least still observes "jumps in the time space continuum", whatever that means. We also know that in the beginning he was motivated and even tried to use the power himself, maybe to help people, maybe to ♥♥♥♥ with them. Probably both. But with time, his work and knowledge made him nihilistic. What's the point in putting effort into anything, in building a future for yourself and the people around you when it could all just disappear from one second to the next without you even knowing? For all he knows, everything he feels the slightest bit passionate about he already did a million times with no memory of it. It's hinted at that the lab behind his house survives resets, and there's a picture of him with friends. He seems happy and the picture says "don't forget". But he has. And at some point, he must've decided to deal with all that like a little ♥♥♥♥♥ and just leave everyone to their own devices while he drinks ketchup and feels sorry for himself.
And now the player comes in: You have the power that makes Sans so miserable, and he knows there's nothing he can do about. More than anything I think he's scared of you. He tells himself that he can't stop you from doing anything, you'll just reset and go around him next time. You have infinite tries and infinite knowledge and he has one hp. So instead he tries to make you want to do the right thing, be it by praising you, scaring you or guilt tripping you. Also he's just always kind of there, in the background, doing silly stuff or giving you food, which we learn in genocide he does because he thinks he's humoring the psychopath, or in your case, the "anomaly". I've wondered before why he tells you how to fight his brother (blue attack), and I think it's because he doesn't want you to feel threatened by him. The same reason he tells you Papyrus isn't dangerous even when he tries to be. If you really want Papyrus dead there's little he can do, you have an endless amount of timelines to achieve that. Killing you wouldn't make you dead, it would just piss you off and motivate you to ♥♥♥♥ with Sans and his family in your next walkthrough. So he tries to make you like Papyrus, engage you in his puzzles and hope for the best. He even does this in Genocide, encouraging you to give it a try, it might be fun. When you have a go at the junior jumble I think? he tells you that means there must be a decent person in you after all. It's actually kind of hard to tell when he's genuine and when he's just trying to appease you, like when you abort genocide at Papyrus he thanks you and says he respects you for your actions. does he mean that or is he just scared you might change your mind? At this point he still thinks, if only you're happy and content, you will have no reason to do bad things. He only learns in Genocide that it doesn't work that way with you.
Now during your journey, mostly in Pacifist, something changes, when you help him, like the others, to get over himself. While you are very determined, Sans is the opposite. He finds it hard to care about anything anymore, and watching you caring so much and being so persistent and strong impresses him. He will occasionally tell you he admires that, and that he wouldn't have been able to do the same. Like how Flowey and Chara start to question their "kill or be killed" motto if Frisk stays peaceful, Sans will question his indifference to life. If you can work towards your goal with such resolve, maybe he can regain some hope too? determination is the will to change fate, something Sans has come to believe is impossible and fruitless, but he slowly starts believing that you can, and he tells you he's rooting for you. In the judgement hall he tells you you hold everyone's future in your hand, and he has faith that you will make the right decision (of course that might just be another attempt at nudging you in the right direction). He cheers you on and protects you when Flowey attacks you and when you save his soul from Asriel, he again tells that he does believe in you, that he does think actions matter and the world can be changed for the better. That's a long way he's come considering he starts off distrusting you so much, since you are the incorporation of what's made him so hopeless and passive to begin with. He keeps the group picture from the mountain in his lab, so apparently your friendship is something he wants to remember even if you do what he says he fears so much in genocide: Help them out of their imprisonment just to send them right back without memory. This is doubly sad because most players will do just that, I know I did. Even in a neutral pacifist ending when he calls you, he will wish you luck and tell you to stay hopeful as they (including him) will, and that he will see you again. He is actually working towards something good again, something that will help others, namely getting everyone to the surface. You've restored his believe that he can change something, that some things are worth fighting for.
Now he's definitely not a hero in this route. That would require for him to believe that something like heroism is even possible, and up until the end of the game he doesn't even really believe that actions matter much at all. He does start to believe that you can change something though, and that inspires him to be better himself, and maybe be, if not a hero, then at least a good person, that puts in an effort for others. Ultimately I think the only hero in pacifist is Frisk, maybe Flowey/Asriel, but that's debatable. Possibly Chara, because they don't reset in the end, accepting an eternity of emptiness inside and outside so that the monsters and Frisk can be free. The rest of the main characters all mostly have their own issues to overcome.
Now for Genocide: While in pacifist you help the monsters be the best version of themselves, strangely enough, it seems that in Genocide the monsters achieve even greater personal heights all on their own (maybe that's supposed to be some adversity makes you strong shtick). Papyrus doesn't attack you but senses there's something wrong and offers you a hug, Undyne sacrifices herself for a little kid (that was also so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ brave for being literally unarmed) and becomes the true heroine, fighting not for pride or even just the monsters, but the entire world, Alphys gets it together and leads everyone to perceived safety instead of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with you via Mettaton, overcoming all her issues of self worth all on her own, Mettaton himself tries to defeat you not for fame, but because he genuinely wants to protect others, and Sans, well, he finally steps up and tries to oppose you even though he thinks it won't work, because it just HAS to work. He definitely does not attack you out of pettiness or revenge. He hates you in other routes, but even when you kill the exact same monsters as you would in genocide, only one less in the ruins and one more in Snowdin, he doesn't attack you. He only does that because he somehow senses that you're about to do something even resets can't undo. If you destroy the world that's it, you need Chara to restore it. So he's desperate, and even if it doesn't work he has to at least try to do the right thing. At least with all the Karma you've built up there has to be some chance of victory right? It's also definitely not true that he's dodging with least effort. Apart from the fact that dodging is apparently near impossible as only three monsters can do it, he is literally sweating in the end. He's giving it all he has, until he is so tired he falls asleep next to the psychopath that wants to kill him along with the rest of the world. That's a lot of will and determination he mustered there for someone who doesn't care. Btw, I agree with a lot of the assessment of the fight, It's supposed to suck, it's meant to be unenjoyable. That doesn't mean he's doing it out of pettiness though, it's just the only chance he has, the post even said that. He knows he can't defeat you, he's known this all along. You can come back a million times and he just has to get hit once and it's over. From the "conversation" we know that by now he's realized that entertainment and fun won't make you agreeable, because you're the kind of person that won't ever be satisfied. Lectures and encouragement won't do anything, because you're not going through with this because you're evil, but because you're bored. You can do it, so you feel like you must. And Sans' last hope is to make sure you can't. Since your determination lets you try infinitely, his only option is to drain it, aka to frustrate you into quitting. He does this not only through battle, but also by mocking you with your death counter and just generally being a cocky ♥♥♥♥♥♥. Flower had a point when he called him a smiley trash bag. But he doesn't do that for schadenfreude (although I'm sure he felt some) but because this was the only way to stop you. I'm not saying he was a hero all along, but he did step up to the task when the situation got dire. He did try to do what was right. I wouldn't call the battle the epitome of good vs evil as you're not really evil, just crazy, and Sans, while heroic in that scenario, isn't exactly superman on an eternal quest, he's just desperate, but still it's pretty obvious who the good guy and the bad guy are in this scenario. I wouldn't say that he strikes you down with righteous fury either, but, you know, he's angry and he's right to be. About emotions in the battle: I've said it a couple times, I'm fairly certain Sans is pretty terrified and pretty desperate. Yes, of course he smiles, he does that to mess with your head. That doesn't mean he doesn't care. He wouldn't do something that hurts him and that he thinks to be futile anyways if he didn't care. To him, you're basically a god and he's scared you'll do something that even you will lose control over. Also, while Sans was obviously tricking you (or trying, kinda badly actually) into surrendering, I do think he meant it when he said it would speak for their past friendship if you don't come back, if you abandon your power trip. I do think he believes it's still possible for you to see reason, and I consider being spared by Sans and resetting a full ending. I completely agree that Sans wouldn't have cried over Papyrus. He would've been mad as hell and maybe a little anxious, but ultimately it's just like him going on vacation for a week, and attacking you wouldn't amount to anything anyway. If I had to guess where he goes after I'd say he probably locked himself in his room and ate junk food until it was time to guilt trip you into not killing Papyrus next time. I also very much agree that he wouldn't have sung dramatic lyrics while kicking Fisk's/Chara's/your ass, that would've defeated the entire purpose of the fight. He tries to keep his grin plastered on his face even when he's nearly used up all his remaining strength and knows that that's it and everything is lost, because he has to. That's how fights against humans work, if you show weakness, you're dead. But that doesn't mean he doesn't think those things. Of course he knows what's at stake and what a catastrophe it would be for everyone if he failed, that's why he puts so much will and power in the battle, hell that's why he attacks you at all, which he doesn't do no matter how much you piss him off in other timelines. Now I have nothing to say about the Karma part. While I'm 99% certain that Karmic Retribution is indeed the canon term, I think it says more about you than Sans in the fight. Nothing angelical god backed there.
For the brothers part of the post, well I've not much to say about that either as I mostly agree, I didn't even know there were people that thought that way about Sans' and Papyrus' relationship, but then again I haven't been deep in the fanbase since the game first came out and I only picked it up again two weeks ago. I feel like Papyrus is probably the nicer one of the two, but it just all seems like friendly banter to me. On the other hand I don't think Sans lets Papyrus die because he's lazy or doesn't want to protect him, but because he feels like he can't, and that direct confrontation would make things worse. I'm not sure myself if he's right or wrong about that. I don't think it's Gaster on the picture but I do think both brothers have a connection to him. I don't think Sans helped build the core because he only showed up recently. I do think it's canon that he's smart and he definitely knows some about science, or at least timelines and resets. We know he knows Alphys, but I highly doubt he could replace her at her job. I think Papyrus is extremely smart and probably as powerful if not more so than Sans, we've never seen him in a serious fight after all, but I do think that Undyne was right to keep him out of the royal guard. Noone is underestimating him, he just wouldn't have been happy there. What else is there? Well I don't think Sans is sexy, or would be even if he wasn't a skeleton, and out of all problems I have with Alphys, which aren't that many, her gender isn't one of them.

Bottom line: While I do agree that some people give Sans waaayyyy too much credit, or just change his canon personality completely, I think this post is giving him way too much ♥♥♥♥, disregarding any character development he's had and comparing his worst version before he changed with other characters' best versions after they changed. I don't think he generally is a hero, Undyne would probably come closest to that although she has her flaws too, but I do think that like other characters he turns into a hero, or at least someone who acts heroically when it's the most necessary. I repeat, he's not the only one. Him, Alphys, Undyne... they all put aside their personal problems and go against the ultimate danger and destruction, you. Sans probably gets the most credit because he is the last hero, and the one who puts up the biggest fight with the least resources if you go by stats alone. People just love an underdog. It's sad that this means other characters get less attention even though they deserveit just as much, but it also shouldn't diminish his accomplishments.
Bottom bottom line: On the off chance that you wasted your time and read this post in its entirety, I'm deeply sorry. I was very bored today and I just got back into Undertale. Also sorry for any grammatical errors, English is not my first language. Have a Happy New Year

[Spike_Bop]

Full agree with you (didnt read it all), because:
1: Megalovania is a heroic song and STMPWYFS is a "pranky" song.
2: Sans is... well... sans.
(p.s.: i ignored all comments in here before writing this.)

[CH4]

if you say so

[Spike_Bop]

Back with more, amigos!
I just realized you said MTT NEO is the strongest boss in the game, and im sorry but the ACTUAL strongest boss in Undyne the undying.

[Bert]

sans knows he can't kill you like people have said but if he wanted to try to kill us he actually did something he can kill people he is so good even flowey knows not to f@#k with him he wanted us dead to begin with but being lazy is his cover papy doesn't even know about. i have never heard of this theory and i believe in some of this stuff you say. i don't see if you put sans is dumb or something but just in case he is pretty smart, he just gave up on science heck he even has his own tiny lab behind his house
these gaster blasters could have been machines and thats why he used them. he also could have known about the resets, because he could be one of gaster's followers and (like gaster) won't forget the resets, flowey only remembers because he could reset before chara/frisk