Why is FF8's story weak. (spoilers)

[geromecbar]

So I had to share my thoughts, see what you guys think of it.

It bothered me that I agree the story of FF8 is just not as good as the other FFs without truly knowing why, but here is what I think is the reason.

The main story itself although following the basic plot of knight chasing the overpowered sorceress that wants to control the world, is incredibly complex and jumps between past, present and future in a fascinating steampunk world.
The twist reveal at the end that Squall started his own story by warning Edea in the past of future events to come is mind-blowing and the whole paradox it creates is amazing, he's basically planted the seed that made him capable of defeating the all powerful sorceress. Awesome.
Squall's arc is also very well made, his story makes complete sense (even if some people don't like the emo feel). He's lost his father and seen his mother die whilst still a toddler and for no apparent reason also lost his "big Sis" leaving him utterly and maddeningly alone. The story of how he grows out of his traumas is just on point.

So why does it feel like such a weak story? Well this is the only FF that has focused everything on its one main character. Squall is actually the only one (excluding Laguna since he's not part of the main team) to get a full character arc. None of the others has any growth in the whole game, they react to events but are basically the exact same people by the time credits roll, as they were starting their journey. And that is, in my opinion, the reason why it feels like the weakest FF story-wise.

So what do you guys reckon?

[NBOX21]

I think the reason why people find this game's story to be kinda weak is because most of the character development goes to the main character of the game, Squall.

In other RPGs, including other FF games, all party characters are treated equally and all feel special in their own right. The characters in FF8 all felt one note and barely show any development at all. That said, Squall had some of the best character development of any character in the entire series.

[NimbleSeaUrchin]

I'd love to see a real remake of this game, with more emphasis on the general idea through disc 1 and 2 of you're the bad mercenary guy, along with playing out the whole building a leader deal, instead of Cid just telling you you're a leader and bam. Irvine could be the Auron-like character that knows about the memory loss from junctioning throughout the story. Quistis could play more into the role of advisor in the beginning half of the game, acting as more of a lead role in the first handful of missions. I'd love to see the Rinoa/Squall relationship blossom sooner, and have her be consumed by the time compression from Adel, turn the entire final boss sequence into a 'disc 5', having to travel through time compression, chasing after the various sorceresses until right at the end, where a sorceress ends up helping you get Rinoa back for a final fight with Ultimecia.

There's just enough there to be a real good story, but it badly needs a handful of tweaks to turn it from good, to great.

Since I'm going on a whole 'remake' idea, I'd also love to see an overhaul of the combat system, combining a materia concept with the junction system. Maybe have a more fleshed out leveling system, like from FFX or XII, to increase your base stats, and then the magic just turns into elemental/status effect types to change your attack/defense affinities. Then again, that would also negate all of the card game, which in my opinion is where this game really shines in the gameplay department.

[percivaldulac]

@geromecbar
You bring up a very good point about Squall's development being the main focus of the game.

I've been creating a mod for a while now that specifically addresses the story. It doesn't completely change the story, which would be almost impossible, and probably not very desirable. But it does tackle a lot of the ideas being discussed here.
The mod elaborates on Squall's development as a leader, Rinoa's backstory and motivation, and also their relationship with one another.

It also expands on the backstory and characterization of every other party member, to the extent that the script allows it. It contains far more than a handful of tweaks, and resolves a lot of internal problems with the story.

If any of you are interested, more information can be found here.
https://www.nexusmods.com/finalfantasy8/mods/3

Or here.
http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=19184.0

The mod is currently only through disc 2, but very soon I will be releasing the full version that includes the entire game!

[Lars]

'cause you're a nerd

FF1 - FF5 may be more for you. I just pretend Edge is Kenny from South Park in FF4, because i couldnt care less about the stories in those games.

[Vic 2.0]

The story's not "weak", IMO, it's rather amazing. But it depends on what you're looking for, I suppose. Nothing wrong at all with a story focusing primarily on a single main character in terms of character arcs and such, though I will say that Rinoa also has a character arc as she goes from a non-thinking, emotion-driven and rather childish person to someone willing to shun her feelings and agree to be locked into a capsule for eternity because it's the logical thing to do.

The game doesn't FIXATE on her character arc though, but again, that's perfectly fine.

[Xengre]

FFVIII is typically considered to have the most well developed and complex story of the entire franchise.

Of course, it has imbalances as do each of the FF games. Laguna, Squall, Rinoa, Cid, Edea all see substantial character growth or backstory and involvement. There are weaker characters that feel almost like extras, though, such as Selphie and Zell. Irvine has his moments and ties a lot of their past together, has various emotional complexities, and helps set mood and act as a half decent supporting character. Selphie and Seifer adds atmosphere and has some story tie ins but they are pretty weak. I suspect they were intended to have more during development. Zell largely just... exists. Quistis has some development but kind of falls off so she is imbalanced as story progresses. Ward and (other guy I forget name) see some decent action as supporting characters. Raine has some great bits but its heavily hinted at for a lot of her growth/development and not outright said. Ellaine is excellent, too. It also has some other reoccurring half-relevant side characters like Biggs, Wedge, the professor, Seifer's lackies, etc. The issue with the game is the complexity and layers weaved together. A lot of it isn't told to you outright but instead hinted at, often never confirmed on various matters. Also, the story concepts can be a tad complex for some people. Surprisingly, despite often being referenced as simply "emo" by many, as you indicate, Squall has amazing character growth. These characters have a reason for why they behave as they do, the decisions they make, their underlying feelings are explored (Irvine for instance), and most characters evolve or are explored in some meaningful way during the course of the game. It features unique story elements, grows in scale in a reasonable way, and has some solid twists all without pulling a lot of the frequent bland cliches seen in numerous other stories. It actively invokes the player to think and determine their own beliefs about links and situations in the story.

Overall, the story covers a lot of ground, gets muddy and doesn't hold hands, and frequently treats other characters and story beats as if they persistently exist rather than just being dropped after a single minor arc like its an anime flick (Barrett, Freya, Waka, and literally most other FF chars). Sadly, while it is great it is still imbalanced none the less. I'd have loved to see it further expanded because I get the impression they had a lot more in mind.

If you want a really developed story and you haven't tried these already I recommend Xenosaga (mainly episode 1, but the others are still worth trying... but we are talking a space opera that competes with the likes of Star Wars but with much more meaningful depth), Grandia 1 & 2, Xenogears (falls a bit short later on, we now know due to being rushed to completion), Chrono Trigger, Suikoden II, Tales of series (I suggest starting Tales of Abyss which is arguably one of the best and often seen as having the best story though Vesperia and Berseria are up there with it depending on who you ask). The Tales of series is notably simply because most of the games are solid and have good stories while also being total behemoths in terms of sheer playtime (these are games you absolutely get your money's worth, and then a few times over in some cases... like Abyss which could be said to be 3x longer than the avg JRPG for just the main story stuff and these games have lots of extra content/dialogue). Granted, you probably know most of these but mentioned just in case and for anyone else interested in a JRPG featuring strong stories.

[percivaldulac]

@geromechar

To add to your point, I wanted to mention that you highlighted a couple of the best things about FF8’s story. But the story is very elaborate, and, of course, contains much more than the two elements you mentioned.

When it comes to storytelling, there exists a broad spectrum within which we can categorize everything from complex, to convoluted, to contrived, to outright contradictory. I’ve put together a small list of story elements that fall somewhere along this spectrum. Much of FF8’s story appears to be complex, but is actually quite simple. It’s just told in an unnecessarily complicated way, or leaves out too many necessary details.

This list isn’t meant to criticize the story, but to point out that while some story elements are complex and well-written, there are many that are not. And issues like these are usually why many people don’t enjoy this story as much as, say, FF7 or FF9.


The complex:
- Squall’s abandonment issue.
- Squall’s time travel causality loop.
- Selphie’s motivation for have a concert in light of what happens to her friends in Trabia Garden.

The convoluted:
- Ultimecia’s apparent ability to create/use a machine designed or built by Odine that can simulate Ellone’s power.
- The nature and scope of Edea’s ability to influence and control others. She can influence Seifer and a Deling crowd, but not Squall or his team?
- Irvine’s apparent hesitation to shoot the Sorceress immediately after learning her name.
- How sorceresses pass on their powers, and what happens to them if they don’t.
- How Seifer manages to find and raise the Lunatic Pandora.
- How the Lunatic Pandora and the Lunar Cry work, why they exist, and their larger purpose in the story.
- The mechanics of Time Compression.

The contrived:
- The amnesia.
- Almost every major character grew up together.
- The nature of Ellone’s powers.
- Why Rinoa wants to leave Timber with Squall in the first place, rather than making him go with her team.
- Rinoa’s open-ended SeeD contract.
- Squall finding and saving Rinoa from the side of Balamb Garden.
- Once stranded in space, Squall and Rinoa stumbling upon the Ragnarok.

The contradictory:
- The Dollet Comm tower works despite Adel’s tomb still jamming radio signals.
- Cid’s management of the Garden vs. his demeanor and apparent lack of leadership skill.
- Squall’s decision to ram Galbadia Garden while Rinoa is hanging from its side.
- Squall’s sudden obsession with Rinoa at the start of disc 3.
- Laguna’s decision to stay in Esthar while sending Ellone back to Winhill, despite Ellone being the most important thing in his life.
- Cid’s apparent lack of interest in explaining anything he knows to Squall.
- Ellone’s apparent lack of interest in explaining anything she knows to Squall. (Including who his parent are.)
- Ultimecia’s ability to possess Rinoa functions differently from the way Ellone’s power does.
- At the end of the game, Seifer is exonerated of what would amount to war crimes.

This is obviously not a comprehensive list, but it's enough to show why many people feel that, in spite of any of the very good things about this story, it still suffers from a death by a thousand cuts.

And I would like to add that my mod goes a long way to rectify each of these issues.

[Unseen]

But I mean couldn't this happen in real life? A man of destiny with a huge story, supported by normal people? Why does everyone need an epic backstory? If someone grew up in your neighborhood, and you knew all there was about him or her, or both, like a whole group of childhood friends... Well isn't that completely possible in life? Why does everyone need a complex intriguing backstory?

It almost gets predictable like, wait everyone has an awesome story and is a man or woman of destiny? So who is the hero?

Some back stories in FF I found a little dull myself and dragged down the story a bit. Others were pretty cool such as red 13, vivi, vincent, shadow, celes, and others. Others not so much, I found barrets backstory painfully dull and a bro tragedy. Found waka to be a boring 1 dimensional football player, cait sith was a dull character all around to me, and many more were just... Hey I got a tragic backstory too lead guy.

I saw 8 as a little different. Nobodies mom was killed in a burning building, nobodies whole city or castle was poisoned.. It was just a lonely orphan who's mom died, and who's dad went missing. The other characters had no real tragedy either, just growing up orphans in a nursery. It kinda cleared the way of any kind of mopey story, or disturbing. FF8 really is one of the most light FF's. Happy endings abound, people say corny things, people seem to be more caring and upbeat about things. Galbadia is bad but they don't seem shinra or kefka bad.

Basically 8 was focused on a romance, and love, and selling that love between two people. And it took 4 discs. If the focus is on everyone, then we get 6, 7, 4 and others and not, well this.. Even the original title art had squall and rhinoa embracing. Just 2 characters. I can kinda understand the angle as it eliminated focusing on any backstory cept laguna. Cause laguna was also in mind for the ending.

Its just what it is, some people grow up and don't do anything with their lives except be someones buddy, its not really an unrealistic idea, its actually more than common in real life.

[Shibubs]

I honestly don't think the story is that bad and is quite easy to follow.....

The story literally explains everything if you were paying attention.
Honestly, I played this game when I was young and didn't understand it.
But as I grew older, had relationships both friends and intimate, I realised that this story isn't meant to be taken in your common RPG fashion.

Now that I've experienced a few things like that, it feels more like something you'd have take in with more emotional attachment or emotional intellect. It's not supposed to be taken in a stoic manner. It's a story about Friendship and Love.

All the things in the middle are just obstacles for the basis of Friendship and Love.
Not purely fixated on "Yeah, boy kills sorceress. Why love story exist?"

[Unseen]

Not that squall really wanted to kill the sorceress he tried to give edea and even ultimecia a chance. He even let ultemcia pass on her powers course if he did kill her before she met edea who knows how that would of altered the time flow. Squall as emo as he could be, was a pretty kind person and a more stand up guy than cloud who just wanted money. Example would be zell, squall only gets mad at zell once and that's when he opens his mouth during a mission. But all the rest of the time, while others are making fun of him or seifers calling him a chicken wuss whatever that is, squalls actually supportive and kind to zell. Respectful to his mom as well, and he was the same with irvine when he couldn't shoot. He coached him and gave him the motivation. He told him he was the best sniper around and if he couldn't then nobody could.

The only time I saw squall as kind of a jerk was his feelings towards quistis. But I think that was a plot element, to try and make it out that she had feelings for squall, but he was to insecure to capitalize on it. And that he does the same stuff with rhinoa later on.
Squall is a more redeemable character than cloud was, cloud was messed up squall wasn't to that point yet. But clouds world was also darker so were the events. Squall was just awkward but a good guy all around.

Not as good as locke, or tidus (who could be as good as tidus tho?) but he was a generally respectful person and I noticed that about him, vs cloud.

I also love how unique 8 is, its like a video game valentine. Everything about it is nice and vibrant and it was the first video game of its kind I'd ever played. Still is, there are some games that try and make things about love and romance. But they are usually niche, visual novels for example. But this kind of game, with a budget and production like this, focused on love, romance, relationships.. Its not done often, even now. I haven't seen an rpg or game quite like 8 in some time. Even among other FF's they try with the love themes, like tidus/yuna or snow/serah, but it just doesn't feel like 8s. I'd love to see an 8-2 or even more romance themed rpgs.

[DragonBaldee]

Personally I like FF8 but if I had to sum up why the plot for most people why this game's plot is different than most FF games it is this.:

For the majority of the game the direct presence of the game's antagonist keeps jumping from witch to witch with no direct personal vendetta against the hero.

Ultimecia possesses Edea and is evil for evil's sake similar to Zeromus but somehow he get to see Golbez in more fights. In those fights we get to see just how ruthless he can be and it make you wait to beat him once and for all. Kuja was the same but just led to be evil as part of his mission to sow war. Jecht/Sin, Sephiroth, ExDeath, Kefka etc all have a physical presence and more screen time.

Meeting the villain at the very end is one way to subvert expectations but it does make the rest of the game seem like once unskippable sidequest. Squall is a merc and unlike most heroes in Final Fantasy these characters try to have a life outside of the combat and we see that. So the Final Boss destroying the world was sidelined for the biggest fear mankind has ever faced not screwing up the relationship with the girl who is kinda into you.

It wouldn't have hurt if we found out a little about Utimecia though. Why she was evil. Where she came from. etc.

[Vic 2.0]

Ultimecia was certainly not "evil for evil's sake". The game does give you insight as to why she hates and wants to destroy the world (not that this is a standard we consistently set for other games). In the parade, she accuses the crowd of "condemning" her "for generations". Asks them what happened to the evil sorceress "from their fantasies". So while the game doesn't spell it out or beat you over the had with it (and while a prequel/sequel [thanks, time loop!] in which we get to see Ultimecia growing up and being condemned, turning into an absolute monster would make for an amazing game!), the game does indicate that she is out for revenge. Not against Squall and his crew, but against literally the world.

[Unseen]

Originally posted by Vic 2.0:

Ultimecia was certainly not "evil for evil's sake". The game does give you insight as to why she hates and wants to destroy the world (not that this is a standard we consistently set for other games). In the parade, she accuses the crowd of "condemning" her "for generations". Asks them what happened to the evil sorceress "from their fantasies". So while the game doesn't spell it out or beat you over the had with it (and while a prequel/sequel [thanks, time loop!] in which we get to see Ultimecia growing up and being condemned, turning into an absolute monster would make for an amazing game!), the game does indicate that she is out for revenge. Not against Squall and his crew, but against literally the world.

The only problem I see with this theory is how its a take on our own reality. Persecution and they do hint at that with her speech. But of course she could of meant their own induced persecution based on fear and destruction which would give little reason for us to look like she has a reason.

The problem with this theory is I see a lot of people using magic and openly taking part in it. With the GFs etc. Also sorceress Adel once ruled esthar, so that's least one example were one ruled as opposed to being persecuted. Also in the wiki it says one sorceress worked with the government to revolutionize magic and allow it to be used for good. This sorceress was not talked about directly but only historically as her name is not brought up.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Sorceress_(Final_Fantasy_VIII)

8 doesn't seem as primitive to me as the reformation or dark ages where they did persecute witches. I'm not saying its worlds not capable of it as we saw how easily galbadia was influenced. But I think ultmecia's anger or motive is kind of mysterious. She passes on her powers to edea, ensuring that she will always lose. She openly does this in front of squall. I always wondered what ultemecia's words meant in the battle as well.

But I also think she might be one of the most powerful as well, up there with bhunivelze and kefka. She can openly manipulate time which is pretty damn op in most fictions. As far as her motive or source of evil. I kinda thought it was vague and unknowable. Kefka was some kind of poisoning from the magic transfusion, seph was jehova and the information he read on his past, others had motives as well. But ultemcia really was one they left unanswered and in the wiki all we can really assume is, based on the information from the other sorceress, she probably was worried about Seed, as in her initial rant. The persecution she mentioned was humanity trying to fight back and defend itself. I think ultemcia was a dictator and wanted power and was angry for the same reason any dictator would be angry, because there was now a force against her.

I wouldn't try and look at it as the main villain is justified. Ultimecia appears, she's a threat, and she's been controlling this the whole time. The reason is most likely planned, a loop, or her own anger at the perceived defiance of her power.

[Vic 2.0]

Originally posted by Unseen:

Persecution and they do hint at that with her speech. But of course she could of meant their own induced persecution based on fear and destruction which would give little reason for us to look like she has a reason.

But see that's where you start theorizing. You're adding that in, whereas I'm just going by what is in the game itself.

The problem with this theory is I see a lot of people using magic and openly taking part in it.

Been a while since I've read up on that, but basically there's magic people are naturally born with and then "magic" they obtain use of artificially, whether through the use of GFs or what have you. It's the former indicating that someone is a sorceress.

Also sorceress Adel once ruled esthar, so that's least one example were one ruled as opposed to being persecuted.

That's just the thing. All indications are that Adel was a tyrant; there's nothing to suggest that she was elected by the people of Esthar or some such.

Also in the wiki it says one sorceress worked with the government to revolutionize magic and allow it to be used for good. This sorceress was not talked about directly but only historically as her name is not brought up.
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Sorceress_(Final_Fantasy_VIII)

Yes, but that same link goes on to say it's probably a reference to Edea herself. And seeing as how this is from a lecture rather than some historical text being read out, it's simply a reflection of how they've come to accept her at that current time. Remember, no one is suggesting they've been hating and condemning Edea in recent times - only that they clearly condemned her for some time period spanning generations in the past, however distant.

But I think ultmecia's anger or motive is kind of mysterious. She passes on her powers to edea, ensuring that she will always lose. She openly does this in front of squall. I always wondered what ultemecia's words meant in the battle as well.

I don't think Ultimecia chooses Edea in that sense, actually. It could just be that she was following Squall because he's the most readily accessible link to not one but two sorceresses she could pass her powers on to. And it's only so that she can die in peace, she's not passing her entire consciousness over to Edea or anything like that in that scene.

Her words at the end of the battle are up for interpretation, no doubt about that! I take it just as her basically talking to herself as she's being defeated and knows it. Really accentuates the tragedy of her own story. But it could also be her last futile attempts to discourage our party from continuing on. Sort of a "Why bother defeating me? We're all going to die eventually anyway".

I think ultemcia was a dictator and wanted power and was angry for the same reason any dictator would be angry, because there was now a force against her.

But what do you mean by "now"? Remember that she said she had been "condemned for generations". Ultimecia's goals are very different from a dictator. The game explicitly tells us that she's after Ellone so she can achieve time compression, changing the world so that only she could exist.

I wouldn't try and look at it as the main villain is justified. Ultimecia appears, she's a threat, and she's been controlling this the whole time. The reason is most likely planned, a loop, or her own anger at the perceived defiance of her power.

That's the beauty of it. No one would be justified or unjustified. One is simply over-reacting to the other with no clear assessment of "who started it?" Or to use Squall's own words:

"...An enemy that is pure evil? Right and wrong are not what separate us and our enemies. It's different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us. Both sides blame one another. There's no good or bad side. Just 2 sides holding different views."

[Unseen]

I acknowledge your points and agree the source of her anger probably stemmed from something very ancient.

However I have to respectfully disagree with your closing statement, I believe in phenomena and spirituality and I'am convinced there is pure evil, and good. I don't really like the grey talking point. I believe in forgiveness for grey, ultimecia wanted to destroy everything and there is no good reason to be that destructive and it looks to me like pure evil.

Many people in history, have shown off pure evil, pure unflinching cruelty that was to extreme to be grey, example would be the same men who persecuted witches with no mercy. I really don't agree with the grey point, maybe if you were discussing caius.