Theory: IS JONAS A BAD GUY??

[jaqkass]

Jonas: OPPRESSOR. A Colonizer Metaphor??

Alright working theory. Is Jonas maybe...a bad guy? A symbol for the dangers of colonization (/tampering with land & resources that aren’t yours)???

1. Alex tells us early on that his name means “oppressor.”

2. Jonas is the one who pushes you to explore the caves, even if you resist.

3. Jonas repeatedly pushes you to lie and even abandon your friends for survival.

4. Jonas discourages you from trying to actually understand what’s going on (for example, he acts like collecting Maggie’s letters is a stupid waste of time). He doesn’t care about the history of the island.

5. Anomaly 102.3 (near the bomb shelter) talks directly about the island’s colonization:

“Man's voice: The island is famously named after Colonel Caleb Edwards for his glorious and triumphant slaughtering of countless families, during one of the great ethnic cleansings of the 20th century. The forceful removal of an ignorant people to make space for destined holders is a time-honored tradition in our still young country. You will be a part of that heritage, Alex. Do not resist, it will be over soon.”

In this clip, I think the children are the “ignorant people” and their very bodies are the space “destined holders” (ghosts) will “forcefully remove” them from.

My point is: this isn’t just about the Kanaloa. Edwards Island has a long, ugly history of oppressors. And I think Jonas might be a symbol for that attitude!! According to Jonas, you should watch your own back and take what you need-screw everyone else.

What do you think?? Am I onto something, or have I ‘continued timeline’ one too many times 😂😂

[Awesome Possum]

I absolutely agree with you! Add onto this list that, when you see the lone car in the parking lot, he makes a passing comment about how there's always that one lone car. But then when the lights start blinking red and you walk toward it, he says he doesn't think you should get any closer. There's the radio announcement at some point (I think earlier in the game) about a car that fell into the water with /four/ people in it. And then he doesn't want you to get near the car. As you get closer, he gets mad. But if you start using your radio by it, he straight up YELLS at you. It's kinda scary. That boy is full of anger. Hmmm. Tack on that whether Michael is around or not, Jonas shows up. Why the heck would he be in town if your parents never got together? Why? Because he never was.

In most endings, whilst on the ferry, Ren reads a quote from Mark Twain: "When I was younger, I could remember anything, whether it had happened or not; but my faculties are decaying now and soon I shall be so I cannot remember any but the things that never happened."

Jonas also means messenger. In the Bible, he was meant to carry a message to a faraway town. He resists and avoids his responsibilities, decides to take up a job on a fishing boat because it'll carry him even further away, but then falls overboard, gets swallowed by a giant fish, deposited on the beach outside the town, and told essentially "you /will/ deliver that message now." I've dug into the meanings of several of the names because of this. Alexandra, (also known as Cassandra) in Greek mythology promised her body to a god in exchange for the gift of precognition. When she refuses to keep up her end of the deal, the god retaliates by adding a curse to her gift -- she will see everything before it happens, but no one will believe her. Nona means nine and represents fates, rebirth, etc. There's a lot of fate & rebirth symbolism in the game, overall.

Anyway, without getting away from the main topic at hand here, yes, I do think that Jonas is a personification of at the very least, the Sunken. I don't think he was a boy that existed in their actual lives. He's just here, on the island, as everyone lives and relives their memories and that which never happened. Living in these loops as the sunken sink into their (probably drowning, imo) bodies. I like your take on colonization because, indeed, the Sunken are not only angry at their loss, but they feel justified in taking that which isn't theirs -- the bodies of these children. They're more knowledgeable, the kids don't know what they're doing with their lives anyway, etc. What if Caleb and other colonizers are also part of that personality? Quite possible.

Indeed, Jonas seems to push you toward opening the rift. And if you try to go back after entering the cave, the entrance is sealed. First sign that this isn't the real world anymore.

I once did a playthrough where I basically resisted every single thing I was supposed to do. Creepiest dang playthrough. You should try it! I'm absolutely convinced Jonas is just a personifications of the spirits messing with you and refusing to let go of the past.

To run away with your thought, I'd also like to add that I think Anna sinks into Nona, and Margaret into Ren, and are almost fully realized by the time you discover the slides. Ren pokes fun at Jonas for being at risk of accidentally setting everything on fire. Then Anna and Ren, when showing you the slides, seem to basically steer you in the direction of fixing things, then playfully rehash an old argument.

Alex: But... won't it be, like, locked or something? Right?
MargaRen: (sounds like a patient teacher) Yeah, how do we get in? (back to normal voice) It's just like the cave wall, only... *steel* or whatever *bomb shelters* are made out of. [Translation: I hope she figures this out.]
JonaSunken: (next slide showing temporal triangles) Oh, *what*? She knew about these things? [Translation: So that's how Anna did it!]
AnNona: (sounds almost sarcastic) Wow, that's crazy. [Translation: Uh, yeah, duh.]
MargaRen: It says that (where?) -- to fix a "temporal tear," -- that's a mouthful (no it isn't) -- "in the cave...We would need to transpose to the 'other side,'... and tune into the source within itself?" [Translation: Why the heck did you think that was a good idea, Anna?]
AnNona: (sounds amused) Okay, but we're not doing that, right? [I'm sorry I did that, Margaret, it was stupid.]
JonaSunken: (sounds uncomfortable) Good question. [Don't mess with this anymore pls.]
MargaRen: (also sounds amused) Yeah, that's -- that's going a little *above* above and beyond. [It's ok, Anna, I understand. You were just doing your best.]

Nona then suddenly seems ever so confident in explaining the radio systems and tunnels and everything. This otherwise mousy, spacey, sweet little hipster artist turns into a confident scientist whilst explaining everything to you, catches herself, adds "or whatever" and tries to act shy again. You can't talk your way out of going into the shelter with Jonas. Ren and Nona just want a chance to hang out together, just the two of them. They're startled if you go back up. (Wonder if maybe you're interrupting something? And I don't mean romance.)

I don't remember the exact moments, but there are also times when the kids, esp Nona and Ren later game, slip up with their language and use old timey speak that most teens wouldn't be using today. The entire time, Nona seems wildly perceptive and knows random things that are just like... how? How did you figure that out, Nona? Exploring with her is very different from exploring with Jonas.

Clarissa is obviously overtly representative of the Sunken. She's the first one to "go". And I wonder if, that's in part due to the deal you make that /one/ time. And then there's another time you might say no, or another time you say yes then change your mind. Well, Alexandra, here's your curse of precog and no one (who is still living) believing you.

Now I'd like to play again, compare and contrast better the experiences of exploring with Nona vs exploring with Jonas. Nona def likes to point things out, whilst Jonas likes to make dismissive comments. But I'd like to take a closer look at what exactly they say and view it through the lens of who they now embody.

Glad you said something! I love this game and love ruminating on the theories. I untangled the web and worked my way back to the "beginning" and kinda wonder what would happen if everyone managed to do so.

Edit: The other thing I considered is the possibility is that Jonas is also a personification of Michael... maybe it's both Sunken and Michael, fighting for control. Michael is protective, the Sunken are vengeful. Maybe Jonas is just a reflection of your own choices. IDK. I def wanna play again!

[jaqkass]

you’ve given me so much to think about! I’m falling asleep but I wanted to squeeze some thoughts out in case I forget

1. I’ve also wondered if Jonas was already Sunken before alex even arrives. I think it’s possible. One theory: he is Jason from anomaly 89.9, and he is simply starting to forget his name.

anomaly 89.9:
Distorted voice: Able 9.
- static/interference -
Woman's voice: Something keeps touching my leg in the water and I don't know what it is. Can we just go in the cave now?
Jason: Oh, sure, sure. I- I just want you to have a good time.
- static/interference -
Jason: Wait there's - I think there's something down there.
Woman's voice: Wait, Jason, there's - don't trip, there's a-... Jason?
- static/interference -

2. Building on that: the Sunken are not just the dead from the Kanaloa, but also everyone they have absorbed-and I think they can absorb anyone who drowns in the waters of the island. It’s the waves, I think. Heh. But seriously. Plus, in addition to the waves, it’s probably easier to take over while the person runs out of air and starts to give up physically mentally. Also: sunken is another word for drowned. When you ask if they are the dead officers, they say “We are the sunken.” This is perhaps a clue that they also include the absorbed spirits of Anna, Jason, the 4 bodies in the recovered from submerged cars...maybe even Michael.

3. The whole Jonas/Jason thing just made me notice right now that Nona even sounds a lot like Anna. Maybe Nona is just Anna who is forgetting her name as well. The fact that she was absorbed too fast could have led to her subdued personality & the fact that she clings so tightly to clarissa. but also im tired & these could be sleepy thoughts now.

[jaqkass]

actually last last thought! sometimes i wonder if clarissa really did kill herself on the island, before the night of the game (most likely by some form of drowning) because it would explain a few things.

1. besides the worker mentioned in the forest (who hung himself & therefore might not have been susceptible to absorption), she would be the only character who willingly ‘gave’ herself to the island/the sunken. this could make her tie to them unique.

2. the sunken mention at the end that their anger was the last thing they clung to. clarissa’s anger towards alex seems to be all she has left, beyond reason or regular behavior. we see in scenes of the past that clarissa was caring, kind, made an effort- now she’s vengeful and full of spite. is that simply because the rest is slipping away?

3. clarissa would be even angrier at alex in this scenario because she would blame alex for her own suicide as well as michael’s death. and by extension would blame alex for her possession & infinite suffering because clarissa did not know what drowning in the waters of the island would mean.

so to wrap up, in this scenario:

Jonas=Jason, long Sunken, forgetting name (but still has the letters right.)
Nona=Anna, long Sunken, forgetting name. effects of hasty absorption have left her subdued & existing almost as an extension of clarissa when she is present.
Clarissa= more recently sunken but already losing memories and emotions. maybe the fact that the rest of the Sunken are so full of anger simply draws out her own rage, but she still has other emotions and THAT is what’s allowing the long sunken to remember themselves/feel compassion again??

edit: i think the native inhabitants of the islands (mentioned in anomaly 102.3/quote in post above) may also be a part of the sunken somehow. the line “we are an island race,” spoken thru jonas during hangman, suggests it imo.

[dawagamer]

Wow! I read this thread with great interest. Not all of it has to be on the money, but it's clear that the devs put a lot of thought into things unseen.

It brings up a question: do the repeating loops have a cumulative effect on the teens? The game devs released the original run, followed later by New Game Plus -- that's two loops. Subsequent loops feature no extra content, for which the real-life, practical reason is that the devs had other projects to move on to.

My musings are partly prompted by the fanfics good riddance, edwards island and (the follow-up) metamorphosis, both by gortysproject, on the Archive of Our Own website. These feature some kind of cumulative effect.

EDIT: The word "cumulative" replaces "compounding".

[John]

Also worth playing without saying anything.

I think Jonas isn't really a bad guy, you can really piss him off and he'll reflect that, but from what I remember he can also be nice. He's got the potential for both.

[Awesome Possum]

Really great points! I (and I think many other theory spinners on Reddit) agree it has something to do with drowning, given the name. I've listened to the radio recording with "Jason" and another gal and while this may be a movie clip and all, I'm bemused by the fact they /sound/ like Jonas and Alex. It's not them, but the voices are similar. The voices of the sunken are mixed, and the balance changes based on where you are and who you're with and what you do. Clarissa hangs onto her anger most of the time but starts to warm up a little at the end at least.

I've noticed the meaner you are, the meaner the spirits are. I think there are a few groups and they're all moving parts, like the island race, the kanaloa passengers, people who've drowned in the lakes, wells, and surrounding waters, people who've hanged, etc. My last run, I was nice to everyone, no matter what. The ghosts who played hangman were actually pretty friendly! The "island race" is pretty chill as a group, as long as you listen and are respectful. There's a small group of the kanaloa passengers that are just straight up mean so you have to be diplomatic and again, be respectful and listen. But the sunken are also you and your friends. The "ghosts" are almost a mirror in their own way. And since they present almost the same way every time, they can be difficult to identify. Imo it's worth playing the game back to the beginning of the web but understand if people wish to leave theirs tangled. Really fun testing how the "ghosts" respond to your behaviors, and listening carefully to voices, thinking about who is present or not.

[Nararya]

I can't really dispute these evidence because they are factually correct, but honestly I think these aren't conscious decision by the developer. I'm going to use occam razor and say they just needed someone to spark the conflict, to oppose Alex's viewpoint of saving everyone to have interesting conversations and arguments. As for number 4, I hunted the letters before going into the Adler Estate, both Ren and Nona ridiculed me for going off finding these letters instead of dealing with the group's escape plan, which according to them is a more pressing matter.

And if Jonas is secretly the antagonist, why does he get a whole subplot about his dead mother? In addition, he didn't push back against not going to the island, should I not beg Ren to go to the island in the break the loop ending. He just went along and acted like he legitimately have never heard of the island before.

[Nararya]

Originally posted by Awesome Possum:

I absolutely agree with you! Add onto this list that, when you see the lone car in the parking lot, he makes a passing comment about how there's always that one lone car. But then when the lights start blinking red and you walk toward it, he says he doesn't think you should get any closer. There's the radio announcement at some point (I think earlier in the game) about a car that fell into the water with /four/ people in it. And then he doesn't want you to get near the car. As you get closer, he gets mad. But if you start using your radio by it, he straight up YELLS at you. It's kinda scary. That boy is full of anger. Hmmm. Tack on that whether Michael is around or not, Jonas shows up. Why the heck would he be in town if your parents never got together? Why? Because he never was.

Probably due to that knifing per capita he mentioned. Or just the 'constant and variables' from Bioshock Infinite. There's always a lighthouse, there's always a Jonas.

Regarding the car, I traveled to Main Street with Nona and she also frowned upon me going to the car and tuning the radio.

[John]

Yeah, I think he yells about the car because it's scary.

[Nararya]

Moreover, if Jonas is the Sunken or whatever, why wouldn't he want Alex to go to the car? To my recollection, if you tune in to the red light, the ghost gets to terrorize you, saying that all of our effort would be pointless and we'd never escape, etc.. If Jonas is the ghost, why wouldn't he want that?

[dysamoria]

Jonas sure gets pissed and angry at Alex if Alex tries to accept the deal with the Sunken to trade Clarissa. I wondered about Jonas myself, but I think he's just a troubled person who can go either way, depending on the influences around him. My first play-through was as positive as can be without the "don't go to the island" ending. After my second play-through, I started doubting Jonas, and wanted to see what he would be like if I had Alex be less gentle with him. He reflects that tactic.

I generally like to play a Player Character as I would behave in their place, so being nasty or cruel to NPCs is really uncomfortable and uncommon for me. Replaying this game three times made me start to feel like it was less "real", and so I started slipping into trying different things to see what would happen. I think the game is starting to wear on me, but I still want to see if I can get better outcomes.

This game is cool, but also so very flawed. I can't really come to a strong feeling on whether or not the dialog tree and outcomes feel sort of natural, or just forced into the format that a game tends to cause: limited outcomes, select actions have most of the impact, despite efforts elsewhere, and foregone conclusion via plotting.

[the_eugenia_doll]

Just played first run and a bit late in the conversation, you guys seem to have dug deeper than me honestly!

I just wanted to oppose point 4. Jonas in my run didn't seem to be disinterested in the history of the island. There were a bunch of moments when he seemed to be interested in knowing more, like when we reached the pit he kinda asked what it was about and didn't steer the conversation elsewhere, also in another point you get the chance to talk about the coal miners and again he seems active in the conversation. Also he points out a bit later that he feels really stupid that he doesn't know much or isn't smart enough sometimes to figure some things out on his own, while other characters have full dialogues where they explain this or that to him. This forced me to tell him he's smart too.
I felt like Jonas is just a classic city guy. He points out he's not completely comfortable outdoors unless its an outdoor cafe or restaurant, probably hasn't seen nature that much, and him not knowing things and acting stupid only means that he's not used to being in certain places and reasoning in the way Alex and Ren do. the others are just more trained in that kind of scenario.
I've seen that a lot IRL, I'm a city guy but i often visit the rural hometown of my parents, and especially when I was a kid I saw that other kids who lived in the city didn't have the same knowledge I had. Being used to country (or island in this case) background really gives a different perspective into things, poor Jonas like other guys just seem to not have that kind of knowledge

As for being not interested in understanding what's going on, I feel his approach is a lot direct, like he finds a problem and tries to solve it, and just let Alex do the dirty brainy thing :D He was always active in my run, suggested frequently to use the radio and various elements in the landscape, maybe he didn't care about solving the mystery but he definitely applied some good and practical problem solving. As a result, it may look like he doesn't care about looking at the big picture, but I felt it's his attitude that makes him that way. Not necessarily bad, i feel Alex-Jonas as couple worked good because of that contrast.

Curious to see suspicion towards Jonas, I was mostly pissed with Ren the whole time! i just couldn't stand him play all the time without understanding the gravity of the moment, it's just the kind of guy I wouldn't be good in a teamwork situation like that

To finish, I suspect that actually all the others may be already possessed except Jonas. He mentions feeling ill frequently, and looks conscious that something is happening to him. Plus he seemed to be the Sunken's favourite prey, it looked a lot like we were watching the whole time as they drove him mad and devour their energy. But I played only once and I may be wrong (also dunno if I'm going to play again, playing the same adventure again make me extra stressful, also I didn't find myself comfortable with the command system)