Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
Discussions Rules and Guidelines
Report this post
The reason is they are useless without being able to do that, heck they can't even put a dent in tanks, they SHOULD be able to one shot squishies, and you should be good enough not to be hit by that. Nerfs can be considered.
Tbh the function of an ability is more about shielding against CC more than an ability's damage so a bit unrelated there. I do remember this game having an item like Banshee's Veil, but if it doesn't maybe they should introduce one, again different topic.
No, all other gods can still be useful by auto attacking and also tanking in the case of guardians and fighters. They can still be useful in that way, if a mage misses or is unable to accomplish his role, aka high burst damage, that mage is useless, more useless than the other roles that have their skills on cooldown, obviously. Hunters and assassins who are more skill oriented are still luckier because their basic attack scales with physical. Guardians and all other roles also have the CC too that you seem to want all mages should be about, if you look at it that way.
That is irrelevant, they have to 1 or 2 shot squishies, or they'll suffer. The game will become League season 2, which I've seen it, it's bad. Larger health pools will push the meta to that kind of direction and it won't be a fun game. Be good enough and stay outside mage's range. Tanks already can't be killed that easily by them. MOBAs should require a certain level of play, more TKA means more forgiveness, I'm sorry but that's what it is.
Again, absolutely terrible suggestion that would only plunge the spellcasters into absolute oblivion. Unplayably bad.
I did play both of those games, and you telling that SC2 is about deathballing tells me that you either didn't play or you are absolutely terrible at it, because just like with all good games, good micro and fast reflexes win the game, which is less apparent in WC3 btw. A good game rewards you intrinsicly, that's about it. You just have to be good at not dying in a single second.
It wasn't only about Reinhardt, it was about the 2 tank meta that made everything so unbearable and long and thus boring. If the games ended quicker the other downsides would at least still feel milder.
Except they aren't useless when they can't do that.
They can still put massive damage into multiple targets. That's literally been their entire thing. That's what their purpose in a teamfight is. Hunters do the high single target DPS, Assassins get in and burst a single target. Mages apply damage to multiple targets. Guardians get in and CC targets to be targeted down by the Hunters/Assassins. Warriors... Are there too.
Mages can absolutely put dents in tanks. Especially these days when it feels like every item has some %Penetration slapped onto it (It used to be you had to build Obsidian Shard every game)
Try auto attacking on an Ability Assassin without getting blown up... Go ahead, I'll wait here.
I don't want all mages to be about CC. But it just so happens that most mages DO have a lot of CC. More so than Assassins, Warrior and Hunters combined.
No they don't. They've been relevant in the past when itemization wasn't allowing for such high power (In addition, there have been times when Mages actually bought defensive items to stay alive which reduced their damage output but they were still relevant because their role was to pump out AoE damage in teamfights)
Assassins are the role that's about bursting down squishies. Mages aren't supposed to be "Ranged Assassins" and if they are, then their kits should reflect that with them being designed like Ao Kuang and The Morrigan where they get up close and burst a single target as opposed to... Every other mages besides those that has skills that can hit multiple targets from a distance.
What? How would it make it unplayably bad to have actual options in item building?
I did play both games and I also watched a lot of pro players and tournaments. SC2 is either about deathballs or Rock, Paper, Scissors units compositions that end the game when someone picks the wrong choice.
Also, good micro and fast reflexes absolutely is apparent in WC3. Unless Happy the micro god has his 85% win rate in WC3 tournaments due to pure luck rather than the fact he has better micro than everyone else...
More TTK means more time to actually have relevant micro. Even AoE2 has long enough TTK for deathballs that micro is important, with targeting the correct units, moving units when appropriate (To engage with something or to move out of siege damage).
SC2 is a bunch of A-move with the occasional group of units spamming an ability (Like a bunch of Ghosts sniping down Brood Lords)
No it was only about Reinhardt.
Even in the D.Va dive meta, it was 2 tanks. D.Va and Winston. You even saw the occasional Roadhog because he could counter dive tanks.
Without Reinhardt there is no ability to safely poke because it's so fast for a good Mcree/S76 to land a few headshots and kill someone (Not to mention, possibilities for Widowmaker to see play). Rein's shield was the enabler for poke battles. (Which is why pleb games were a lot faster because no-one wanted to play Rein and if someone did pick Rein in Ranked... No-one wanted to play "Sit behind the Rein for 3 years")
High single target damage is always more preferable than multiple target low damage, in a game of MOBA, light damage will always be patched up by various kits of sustenance, a hunter could easily outdo such a thing by his own lifesteal alone, which is why he would always beat a mage that has lower damage. The fact that you see anti-heal being built in every high level game is a proof of that. Your definition/preferance of a mage puts them in a clear disadvantage, my definition of mage is long range nuker that can take out a single squishy from a distance.
Penetration should also similarly be built every game or else how you'll deal with tanks, this is not an exception for Smite. I've observed time and time again not putting enough of a dent as a mage just with one penetration item so that speaks for itself. You could say there should be more various items and more choices of item compositions, which I would agree but that is a different thing.
Still has a higher chance to be useful than a mage sitting and trying to deal damage with auto attacks, it's not that hard to figure this out.
Not more than guardians do, also doubt they would have more than warriors really. But the point that they have CC is irrelevant if a role like a guardian is more suited and kitted towards dealing that CC in the first place, which they are, some mages just happen to have CC just like all random gods do, and honestly I really do prefer it that way, because a mage shouldn't have zero chance against a hunter 1v1. This in particular is the downside of most other MOBAs when it's not in Smite.
Again, it's only your own personal agenda to make them less useful. Mages should have as much shut down potential as hunters by themselves. I can agree that some of their kits could be balanced out depending on the situation, if one has an escape skill, they don't have to have either high damage or a hard CC for example. But other than that, long range burst mages definitely should exist. One could similarly ask for a hunter nerf just because according to them it's long range so why not, but that wouldn't be in good conscience either.
Removing CDR altogether isn't more options, it's less options, and mauling certain characters. I would like actual more options in item building.
I also watched pros play SC2 and still do today. Calling it a game about deathball is laughable when you take players like Serral into account, apparently they are also on a lucky binge. Rock, paper, scissors scheme is kind of how a game about strategy is supposed to be, heck even all MOBAs are. The thing that makes a game broken and not fun to play with would be the same composition or same unit that is viable each and every game.
Long TTK means less need for micro and reflexes. WC3 will always be a weaker game in regards to that.
Well you've proven that it's not just about Reinhardt in your own article. Reinhardt is one of the better tanks yes (not the best one even, mind you, very susceptible to fire from above for example), but the fact is characters like D.va and Winston and Reinhardt are all broken characters, not just because of their kit but because they are tanks. And OW1 had two tank meta. Reinhardt's own unbreakable defense itself is a testament alone that high TTK games are always gonna be the death of a game.
Light damage yes.
But moderate to heavy damage? No. Especially when it's followed up by the single target specialists that burst down a now low health target.
So your definition of a mage is... A hunter?
Since that's what Hunters are specialized in. Taking down a single squishy from a distance (With Crits meaning that in late game, they take down a single ANYTHING from a distance)
If your entire role is defined by killing a SQUISHY, then there's no reason you should care about damage to tanks. What's a tank going to do, 1v5 when you've deleted their damage dealers?
Of course, you do eventually pick up Penetration in every game but the thing is that unlike yesteryear, you don't just pick up Obsidian Shard and call it a day. Heck, you don't even need to pick up Obs Shard these days because so many other items have %Pen on meaning you can build almost whatever and still end up hitting the 40% pen cap (Which is part of what's allowing mages to push out so much more damage than in older Smite, since it used to be that Obs Shard was a mediocre power item... Nowadays you're getting Pen from Tahuti and such)
It really is. Since mages auto attacks aren't completely useless like Guardians. While 20% scaling from power isn't amazing, it's easy to hit 600+ power which is still ~150 damage basic attacks.
There are even mages that explicitly have synergy with basic attacks (Outside the ADC mages):
Agni stacks his passive from basics (Which provides a significant damage boost with his spells)
Zeus can stack his charges with basics (As well as dealing bonus damage with basics from his charges)
The Morrigan has her attack chain with the AoE %health damage final hit.
Hades stacks his debuff that provides synergy with his spells.
Nu Wa builds her passive to get a root effect from her basics.
Poseidon literally has a stim for his basic attacks.
Raijin can proc Raiju with his basics.
Thoth has his wall that buffs his basics (As well as it's kinda the only thing he can do after he's fired off his bolts without wasting his mobility/CC skill)
Zhong has his skill that provides extra damage on his basics.
Persephone is going to be wanting to fire off basics anyway to proc her plants.
Yu Huang's passive can buff his basic attacks.
Hera procs her passive with basic attacks.
Baron can stack his passive with basic attacks.
It's very clear that Mages are designed with the intent that they will in fact throw out basic attacks. They won't be outmatching Hunters with them, but they actually do something because of how much power they will build (Unlike Guardians which in the support role do 0 damage, even Ymir with his double damage basics does nothing in a typical support build)
Mages have a fair amount of CC and while it's not their primary function, it's still there ON TOP of their AoE damage. It's a reason to pick a Mage over a Hunter even if health is increased.
It's not making them less useful. It's making them useful in their designed function instead of making them Hunters (Which has lead to them being replaced by Hunters at the high level of play... Because why pick a "Mage" that is just a bad Hunter when you can pick a Hunter and have better Squishy Nuking potential)
Of course.
Given that Mage is the most diverse role in the game, with "Magical ADC's", "Magical Assassins", "Magical Warriors" as well as typical "Mages" it would only be fair that there would be gods more like say, Nox that provides more focused single target burst damage from a distance (Along with a buttload of CC) as well as gods like Zeus/Ah Puch/Hera etc that deal damage in an area.
This would of course, lead to a meta favouring a particular type of mage depending on which one was found to be more useful.
It is more options. Since, instead of shoehorning in 30-40% CDR into every build using the same 2-3 items you can now build things that provide different benefits to your build.
You also seem to have glossed over the fact that I mentioned cutting base cooldowns at the same time as removing CDR. Meaning that no god would be negatively impacted by its removal.
Rock, paper, scissors isn't strategy. It's a roll of the dice. Strategy implies being able to strategize things. Having RPS elements to things is supposed to be there (Like, X unit beats Y unit beats Z unit). But having the entire game be decided on draft or 2 minutes into the game because of a wrong composition is awful for a game (And happens far too often in MOBA's due to poor balancing)
Wrong.
Short TTK means less micro and reflexes. Because if your units are dead after 0.1 seconds... What's left to micro? You gonna move their corpses around to stop them getting killed more?
Short TTK means the game is more macro heavy, as you need to have good and constant production of units to replace things when they inevitably die (In SC2 this gets compounded by bases having relatively low amounts of minerals so you need to expand frequently while maintaining production and moving your units to the front line)
Long TTK means you have to micro units more as you need to ensure that you maximize each units effectiveness in order to achieve something (A-moving in WC3 will do nothing as your units will attack multiple enemy units and not kill anything). It also enables things like using items and abilities at the last possible moment to maximize usage.
How did I? Reinhardt was single handedly the reason for the stale poke meta.
D.Va and Winston/Roadhog duo tank lead to more action packed games that were fun to watch because instead of sitting around doing nothing for 5 minutes building ults... People were diving in and fighting.
The fact that they were 2 tanks diving is because of the lack of useful diving partners as the only damage dealers with that mobility were Genji and Pharah with Tracer occasionally depending on map.
The main fact that made D.Va and Winston popular is that D.Va and Winston have tools to protect the damage dealers that dive with them... Which is more a signal of "Supports are OP" than "Tanks are OP". Roadhog being there is because he can hook things and blow them up with his shotgun, Hook negating D.Va's Defense Matrix to boot (Unlike Reaper who lacks such ways to combat supportive skills)
Also contrary to your belief, this dive meta was not high TTK. It was very fast and ended very quick. This was eventually nerfed back into irrelevance and the game went back to Reinhardt poke and died as a result.
The cap isn't really a big deal. Though the biggest discrepancy (And reason why you don't feel tanky while at prot cap) are the counters to prots and power.
Say you're at the prot cap of 325. Then you get hit by Executioner/Demonic Grip reducing your prots by ~30% you're now at 227.5 prots. Then people have 40% penetration. You now have 136 prots. Add in 10-20 flat pen and you've been reduced back down to 110 prots and it's now like you just bought 1 defensive item even though you're 6 slotted.
Meanwhile, to counter Physical gods getting 250-300 Power and Magical gods getting 500-700 Power, what do we have? Jade Emperor Crown reducing physical power by 15% (Roughly 35-40 power reduction) and Runic Shield reducing magical power by a flat 50 (About 10-8%)
This is the result of the jank Protections system. Where it can make you immortal until penetration kicks in and reduces it to garbage. There should be a better system that lets you feel beefy when you've built a bunch of defensive items (Meaning you can more effectively build sorta beefy with a few defensive items and mix in some damage/utility items too). With penetration helping to deal damage to tanks without rendering them obsolete.
My definition of a mage is a mage. They BURST targets with magic damage using cooldowns as opposed to basic attacks. As they should.
Penetration is part of the meta and it will always be part of the meta as long as there's the option for it, because it's naturally preferable and you can't do anything about but build it, really. And honestly there should be, as a mage character has the hardest time dealing with a tank in general anyway.
They WOULD be useless, we are talking about the case where all the cooldowns of both an assassin and a mage character being down here, and more than half of the characters you've mentioned use their skill to make use of their auto attacks, so this example is wrong. An assassin would triumph 1v1 everytime in this situation.
They aren't hunters. It's good and refreshing to see other types of gods to be on a fast lane rather than the usual adc + support everygame, it brings a breath of fresh air and new possibilities, just as how there can be all types of gods on a solo lane. You can see stuff like this in LoL from time to time too, and I support it, because vast possibilities is a better indication of a good game.
Also even then, you rarely see a mage being put on that lane as the carry instead of a hunter on the pro leagues that are displayed on twitch.
You don't even put CDR on every build, there are so many magical gods that don't even need it. You could in theory do some alterations on that, something like making Desolator and Chronos' Pendant mutually exclusive maybe, but other than that CDR is not only not needed for every god, but it brings much needed diversity to the already poor item collection of the game. When you take CDR away, what are you left with anyway, power and penetration? Literally the other two things that you are complaining about, it feels like you are just complaining about mages being in the game in general. The game needs more variety of items, stuff like Liandri that gives you more power, but turns all of your skills into DoT, or Demonic Embrace that makes you gain more power the more health you have. Smite doesn't have too much to offer in the way of uniques.
It is strategy. You decide on an initial build on every game that involves strategy, and adapt according to what your enemy builds BEFORE you lose the game. It's the game requiring a certain level of play, as opposed to certain unit compositions always being the "go to" in wc3's case.
You just have to be good at the game, if you aren't good at the game, then a slow paced game is your preferance, but that doesn't make the game good or preferable for high levels of play.
Overwatch is the kind of game where tank is the OP role and carries the game, and 2 tank meta only further emphasized that whether it be or without Reinhardt in a team composition. You just don't kill two bullet sponges that are charging towards you and killing you while you aren't killing them.
That's still Hunter description. Given the number of Ability based Hunters that exist (And are currently being used at high level instead of Mages that do this single target burst)
So you want there to be 2 roles where literally the only difference is Magical damage vs Physical damage?
And you claim to want diversity in the game.
THEY ARE NOT USELESS. I use them all the time. My allies use them all the time. My opponents use them all the time. Pros use them all the time (It's part of The Morrigan's burst combo)
Why the actual F are you talking about Mage vs Assassin 1v1?
We were talking about actual in game usage of basic attacks. An ability Assassin gets into the fight, drops their stuff and then needs to GTFO before they're blown up, providing little to no time to use basic attacks.
A Mage drops their stuff from range, then can fling basic attacks from range until their stuff is back off CD.
Mages can more easily use their basic attacks than Ability Based Assassins, ergo the claim that "Mages suck" because they have to rely on basics when their stuff is on CD and thus need to be able to one shot single targets with their ultimate is absurd when Ability Assassins have significantly more CD reliance given their melee nature.
According to you they are. "Long range burst gods" That's a Hunter. That's literally what EVERY SINGLE HUNTER has had as their design the least diverse role in the entire game because they have ALL been about dealing long range damage.
So when you want all MAGES to also do the exact same thing... Well, Hunter is the most apt description.
You're left with items that have effects on. Like Book of the Dead's shield, Spear of the Magus' damage taken debuff, Gem of Isolation's slow, Ethereal Staff's HP/MP steal, Soul Gem's damage/heal proc, Staff of Myrdin's power boost proc, Soul Reaver's percentage health damage, Polynomicon's basic attack buff etc.
Instead of hitting arbitrary stat breakpoints, you buy items because they fit your god/build/composition/game. This would be compounded if they introduced more items and reworked existing CDR items into ones with different effects.
Literally every other MOBA that features good itemization choices has no arbitrary "Get X amount of Y stat" like Smite does with its CDR, Penetration and Protections. You pick items based on them providing something useful to you in that specific game.
Of course, most other MOBA's aren't hampered by being tied to Consoles and thus not being able to utilise the additional keybinds found on PC to allow for active use items (Which allow for items to provide infinitely more unique effects)
I have literally 0 issues with Mages in the game. I think they're fine and actually one of the best designed roles in the game due to them having significant diversity. They're also the role that hasn't been caught up in the powercreep of releases lately that likes to give every god a mobility skill + CC immunity.
Being good at the game doesn't suddenly let you micro dead units. Dead units are dead.
The "Micro" is just selecting where to attack and when, rather than actual unit control within a fight.
The OP role was Ana she carried the game. Since she pumped out the healing that made someone unkillable and it was her Biotic Grenade that would literally prevent a target being healed. There was a reason why Ana was used in 100% of games.
D.Va and Winston weren't even bullet sponges, because both of them had their high health pools countered by the fact that their crit hitbox was massive and right in the middle of their model making them ridiculously easy to melt with crits. To say nothing about how Roadhog and Reaper could shred them with ease.
A lot of the reason why 2 Tank was meta was because an additional DPS or healer didn't do anything. 2 DPS could already explode a team in a few seconds/a single ult and 2 healers provided more than enough healing to keep everyone safe.
So... Why not add in an extra tank that can lay down some defensive skills to stop the enemy DPS from obliterating your entire team?
Essentially... It all came down to TTK. If TTK was higher, then there'd be more reason to grab an extra DPS instead of a tank.
If Tanks in the game truly were OP, you'd have seen Triple Tank or even Quad Tank being meta but this was never the case, it was always 2/2/2 comp with the occasional Triple Tank comp (Which often swapped out a support for the 3rd tank leaving 2 DPS still)
I think you misunderstand the Hunter or Burst description then. Melting opponents away with basic attacks isn't burst damaging (which is what hunters do), burst damage happens in an instant in a single move, i.e. with a skillshot.
That's already in the game?? And yeah, I think there being magical hunters rather than solely physical ones is still more diversification?
Because that has been the point of this paragraph that you are quoting from the beginning... Did you forget?
Given both roles have all of their skills on cooldown, an assassin will have more value than a mage 100%, considering both basic attack scaling and potential lifesteal value. Regardless of the fact whether that assassin is a more basic attack oriented or skillshot oriented assassin or not.
Also Morrigan isn't a mage, it's an assassin that deals magical damage.
Look back to the definition on the first one.
Well too bad all of those stuff are about what you hate, giving copius amounts of power instead of actually being unique. Maybe except isolation and ethereal. And they are also very commonly used in a lot of pro builds, in fact ironically the use of items like myrddin and magus is much, much more prevalent than the CDR items, by a lot. Not sure if this is the true diversity that you were calling, but CDR really isn't needed by every god unlike you were saying, and it's a good build when it's chosen by the others. Heck, if I've chosen deso and chronos for early game instead of all the other items that would give me a serious power spike, that's a legitimate choice.
You have to be good enough to have judgement and the reflexes to not make them dead before they are dead. The same goes for Smite too.
Both D.va and Winston are disgustingly tanky and undying in the hands of the right person. Ana is just one hero that is OP, AMONG the support role. Tanks are the OP role of Overwatch, it's literally also claimed by the pros that play the game, dude. If they grabbed even another tank, that would be when they would start losing the much needed extra damage.
Crits are burst damage, you blow people up in a few basics instead of a few skills.
Also, Ability Hunters exist and use their abilities primarily.
It isn't.
Hunters do primarily single target range damage. Assassins do a mix of single target and AoE melee damage. Guardians are CC heavy melee. Warriors are bruisers. Mages are typically ranged AoE damage dealers (With a few exceptions)
What? At no point were we discussing Mage vs Assassin 1v1.
We were talking about actually using basics in an actual game after having dumped abilities.
After dumping their abilities, an ability assassin will be in the middle of the enemy team (Because their skills are short range) and easy to be targeted and blown up, while a mage will be stood at range behind their frontlines and relatively safe (Outside of divers)
The mage will have 10000000000000000000000000% more value from basic attacks because they actually have the opportunity to use them even if they do less damage.
What? Since when have I stated I hate them? I hate things like Obs Shard and Chronos Pendant because they're the defacto "I pick them up to hit a specific stat requirement" be it 20/30/40% Pen or 20/30/40% CDR
Of course, they could be more interesting (Especially given how they've been changing them over time, slapping on 10% Pen here and 10% CDR there, bumping up their power, removing god specific synergies like old Spear of Magus etc)
But the basic premise of these items are fine. They all give power, so you look at what unique thing a particular item offers.
Judgement is not micro. Reflexes don't help unless you're just microing so that you never engage.
When units fight and die instantly, there is nothing left to micro. It's all about the engagement itself which is objectively less micro than a higher TTK which also offers the micro of picking an engagement, but then also has in-combat unit control to maximize their effectivness (And minimize losses, which is where macro vs micro comes in. Higher TTK will generally have less macro because you don't need to make units as frequently)
Yes. A person with a sick Ana behind them.
And yet, more than 2 Tanks was the least common adaptation to the standard 2/2/2 meta (A meta that values each role equally with 2 Tanks, 2 DPS and 2 Healers)
You saw Triple DPS and Triple Support more often than Triple Tank.
This directly contradicts your prior point of
"You just don't kill two bullet sponges that are charging towards you and killing you while you aren't killing them."
Which is it? Does picking Tanks leave you lacking damage or are Tanks "Bullet sponges that are killing you while you aren't killing them"?
Crits are crits, you don't throw a crit and go into a cooldown, hence why high damage skills are burst. Ability hunters are physical power and still more advantageous over mages because of basic attack scaling.
It literally is, magical hunters do exist in the game such as Olorun and Sol. Though I find some of them terribly lacking in comparison.
Well you've just forgotten the original context of that follow-up then.
The basic attack damage an assassin will deal will outshine a living mage's basic attack damage even if he ends up dying at the end of the skirmish, plus assassin can stay alive by choosing the right time to engage, and thus be more valuable than a basic attacking mage.
Tbh penetration is only a requirement according to how the match is going. I think CDR can be really conditional.
Judgement is micro yes, having a good judgement and giving appropriate commands at the right time is an aspect of micromanagement. If you think your units are dying instantly, that's you being bad for the skill level of the match that you are playing. High TTK only offers mercy, and ultimately boredom. Evidently it is observable that even at the height of WC3, melee never was an as preferable game mode compared to custom games whereas it is the completely opposite for SC2. That speaks for the quality of the actual RTS design. Because people just didn't like the RTS of WC3 nearly as much.
A single character being good among others is not the whole role being the meta.
Because more than 2 was simply diminishing returns. An attacker has more damage but doesn't have as much health to stay nearly as active as a tank. But covering behind two tanks, they could dish more damage than 3 tanks could. 2 tank meta beating any other 3 composition is a clear evidence that tanks were overpowering.
A tank always overpowering 99% of all heroes in a 1v1 is the ultimate evidence that supports the idea that tanks are the OP class. One exception that comes to mind is Reaper who is designed to counter tanks, and individual cases like Phalanx vs. Reinhardt. In pro leagues, characters like D.va and Winston will end up getting the shutdowns and POG moments more than any others. Go and play the game if you don't believe it, it's widely recognized by the scene.
Having a cooldown is not the definition of "Burst"
Burst is simply high amounts of damage in a short period of time.
Critting someone for 500 damage 3 times in a row is burst the same way throwing 3 skills for 600 damage each is burst.
The only difference is crits are OP because they have no cooldown and can be thrown out onto the next guy.
There being specific select gods that are similar between roles is not the same as entire roles being identical.
Or are you next going to say that Hunters = Guardians because you can play ADC Sylvanus?
No, you just made up a brand new scenario when your point was shown to be inane.
The original context is as such:
"No, all other gods can still be useful by auto attacking and also tanking in the case of guardians and fighters. They can still be useful in that way, if a mage misses or is unable to accomplish his role, aka high burst damage, that mage is useless, more useless than the other roles that have their skills on cooldown, obviously. Hunters and assassins who are more skill oriented are still luckier because their basic attack scales with physical."
You made this point that mages suck super hard because their basic attacks are useless and thus justify the NEED for mages to one shot people despite their AoE nature.
At no point have we entered into a discussion of 1v1.
I then raised the point that after dumping their kit and relying on basic attacks, mages have an advantage over ability assassins because mages are at range while assassins will get blown up if they stick around to basic attack (Outside a couple to secure a kill)
Again, at no point have we mentioned 1v1.
You then go on to say about how trash mage basics are and they do no damage. To which I remark about how mage basics do some damage and are actual relied upon for many mage kits to function optimally.
At no point have we mentioned 1v1.
So please, remind me about where in the original context has either of us brought up a 1v1 scenario and then if you do find that, please show me where a 1v1 scenario between a mage and an ability assassin where both gods have all their skills on cooldown is at all relevant to anything regarding the topic of whether or not Smite's TTK is appropriate.
Either way, the stats are innately boring. It's a case of "I need to get X stat" and then you pick up some specific items to hit a certain amount of that stat.
If it was all consolidated onto a single item that'd be one thing. But often you end up wanting to buy 2-3 items to hit 30/40% of that stat.
Judgement is not micro. It's judgement.
You also use judgement in macro. In strategy. In overall decision making.
Micro is micromanagement that's literally what its an abbreviation of. It is the action of managing things on a small scale, in this case, individual units.
There's a lot more that goes into a games popularity than that. SC2 is part of an IP that was already hugely popular in Korea. WC3 also had the hero aspect which can detract from the experience for many.
But 2 characters being good does?
Ana was single handedly the most broken part of OW1. She literally made people unkillable and single handedly countered unkillable opponents. If she didn't exist, the "Tanky" characters would not be nearly so durable.
Which indicates that they were not OP. They were not some broken unkillable end-all-be-all that you're depicting them as.
I did play the game. Back when I did, I was a D.Va main in GM. Tanks were not OP, Ana was. Without Ana, tanks fold like wet paper tissue to heroes like S76 and Mcree let alone the actual "Tank buster" heroes like Reaper (Who was not meta) and Roadhog.
I stopped playing because I ended up needing to play Reinhardt all the time which was boring af, and was necessary because Reinhardt enabled the highly successful but extremely boring strategy of ult farming.
This was not fun especially combined with an absolutely ATROCIOUS matchmaker that simply averaged MMR between teams (So you'd end up with like 5 golds and a GM vs 6 Plats and it'd just be the GM stomping the Plats and the Plats stomping the Golds and no-one having fun)
Either way, this entire discussion on OW's points of failure is meaningless to this discussion. Unless you want to bring up the topic of TTK outside of Ana and the Reinhardt poke meta (Which personally, I think was a bit too low at least in regards to things like Hanzo's Scatter Arrow one shotting non-tanks which was annoying to be hit by, especially if the Hanzo wasn't actually aiming at you and simply missed their target and you got randomly one-shotted by accident)
It might as well be what defines a burst, because burst indicates that it's momentary, that it likely won't have a follow up after. Damage from auto attacks isn't just momentary, heck they could even be closer to DoT.
They are more identical in the meaning that you claim a god like Poseidon is being identical to a hunter just because of his high damage and him being ranged.
My point was never shown to be inane, you just can't accept the truth. I'll show you now.
That's right and I stand by it. This conceived AoE nature that you keep talking about btw, might as well be a complete bullcrap, since I've figured more and more lately that the most preferred mages on the LCC haven't even been mages that have an insane AoE, such as Scylla and Chronos. The only one that pops up to my mind is individual cases like Vulcan's ulti which could be nerfed. AoE isn't a defining characteristic of a mage. Moreover, I've also seen the double hunter comps that are being used every so often that don't even make use of a mage in the pro league. That only enhances my point that mages are already weak in comparison in many aspects and at times can be even overlooked, so they don't even need a nerf.
There might as well come a point where they have to in the jungle. But the truth is it doesn't matter whether it's in a teamfight event or truly 1v1. More on it.
That is also completely situational and up to player skill and what teammates do. An assassin doesn't have to be instantly blown up, they would do what a not-too-terrible player do, and wait until guardians or other parties have spent their skills and then engage. If a tank or any other CC user enables him, they could easily chip away much more health than a basic attacking mage, while a mage on cooldown would blow up as efficiently if someone dove, or just two people decided to focus him. What a mage could do is stay as far back and tickle away at the tank, which wouldn't do anything, as I've pointed out in one of my previous arguments regarding light damage being patched up. Tickling the enemy by basic attacking suddenly made a mage more useful than an assassin? Yeah, see them get caught 1v1 with the same settings in the jungle, for example. Or see an assassin on cooldown catching any squishy on cooldown in the jungle vs. a mage on cooldown catching any squishy on cooldown in the jungle.
And I said they can only function IN CONJUNCTION with their abilities, they can no way in jotunn do anything noteworthy while they are in cooldown.
And about Smite's TTK, yeah, as it turns out in the pro league, especially the top level plays, the scores stay boringly low throughout the game and it's rare to see a deicide even up until the end of a game. What does this tell you regarding the current HP pools? It tells me that people who play good can and do stay alive, so there is never a reason to buff the HP, and overbloating their HP by making everyone even tankier is just gonna make everything more forgiving and boring. And I've already pointed out that the same thing happened on League and dmg per hp item was the meta even for the adc, and I kid you not, if a buff like that happened, similarly animosity hunters would start becoming a meta.
Yes, judgement is micromanagement. Everything you do while you are simultaneously doing something else is micromanagement, you aren't shutting down your brain while trying to play on 250 APM. It can be part of macro at the same time, but doesn't mean it isn't part of micro.
And those heroes, wait for it, were huge tanks that couldn't die and therefore also part of the thing that contributed to how slow it was.
The entirety of tank cast is more preferable than the wide majority of the heroes of any other role.
Tbh, Ana's best part which made her the best support was her anti-heal more than anything else, which made the enemy team's support useless as soon as you busted that grenade. It wasn't necessarily the fact that she could make allies not die better than others.
Saying that something has diminishing returns in no way makes them less OP.