Is the map supposed to reset?

[asbestos]

I was surprised to discover that after revealing the entire map of Jyotish through exploration, that after leaving the area through a door and immediately returning, the map reset as though I had never explored the area at all. Additionally, after revealing the map by discovering it at a terminal, it also reset after saving and exiting the game and then returning to my save.

If this is by design, my feedback would be that it seems unexpected and is a bit too punishing considering the amount of time it takes to reveal the map.

[antonkudin]

By design ;]

[Misery]

Wait... this is genuinely going to DELETE THE MAP all the time? Including after saving and reloading? What?

I came on here looking to find out about the godforsaken map, which currently is such a problem that I've entirely lost interest in playing further, but... .if the game is going to do this, that's an absolute "no freaking way" for me. I dont want to spend 99% of the time in this backtracking through the same corridors that I've been through 10000 times because I cant just look at a simple map of where I"ve been. As it is, I started the game, COULDNT FIND THE MAP, wondered who thought it was a good idea to even have the map be something that needed to be found, and after about an hour of this, quit.

If it's really going to not only force searching for the bloody map, which is awful enough (no, seriously, that's very bad design in a game of this genre), but also DELETE the thing during the game? Yeah... I'm thinking that's an instant refund right there.

I get that you want to not hold the player's hand. I get that you want to have the game be challenging. As a big fan of extremely difficult games (I mostly play roguelikes of any sort, and bullet-hell games), I can tell you: this bit with the map is NOT the way to do EITHER of those things. What it is, is a way to add artificial difficulty (not a good thing in any game) and incredible amounts of tedium to a game that is already way too slow-moving. The actual gameplay so far, as in, the combat, isnt very hard. But trying not to fall asleep while wandering the same part of the bloody maze over and over again? Yeah. THAT is hard.

Just.... no. If that aspect of the game should change someday, I may come back to this. But for now... that's a nope for me. And something tells me it's going to be a nope for quite a number of players in the future.

[antonkudin]

Misery. Sorry you don't like that design, but its a common theme in rogue-likes: when you enter area it has some aspects that never change (the look of it, common enemies etc) and some that are different every time (layout, room/level layout etc).

I understand its not for everyone, but i thought it was a decent idea to try and do in a story-based game.

[Misery]

Originally posted by antonkudin:

Misery. Sorry you don't like that design, but its a common theme in rogue-likes: when you enter area it has some aspects that never change (the look of it, common enemies etc) and some that are different every time (layout, room/level layout etc).

I understand its not for everyone, but i thought it was a decent idea to try and do in a story-based game.

Hm, perhaps I misphrased this:

I dont mean the actual shape or layout of the level/zone/whatever itself. I expect that to change from one run/playthrough to the next... it's part of why I play this genre (changing DURING a run though is another matter, though that has it's own charms) because it keeps exploration relevant. I mean the map screen, or whatever you might call it. The screen that fills out a display of where you've been in the current run. Every game in this genre does it to some degree (though occaisionally some have maps that are almost unreadable).

The problem for me is if that display of areas seen is either A: non-existent (even temporarily) or B: ever deleted for any reason. My memory is *terrible*. And for as good as this game looks (and seriously, it really is gorgeous) every area I've seen so far looks pretty much the same. I've found this basically impossible to traverse with no map. Particularly after I had one really idiotic death (which was entirely my own fault, did something stupid), and then was sent back to a checkpoint, and from there I couldnt find my way back to where I'd been. I kept getting lost in mostly empty areas that I'd already plowed through. THAT is the problem. And if, even after finding the map item itself, the thing is going to delete itself or something? That's a bigger problem. Did I misread that part though? That occurs to me just now. Is it that the actual *layout* changes, not the map information getting deleted?

Dont get me wrong here: The gameplay that I've experienced so far is really good, which is actually part of what makes this so frustrating. But I genuinely find games like this to be literally unplayable, regardless of difficulty, if they have a nonexistent map (or just a badly done map that's hard to even look at).

I dont think there's anything actually wrong with the level layouts/rooms themselves. The game does a good job of generating areas that are interesting to traverse and fight in. It's literally JUST the map screen bit that kills it for me.


Also I apologize if I sound too angry/negative in that first post. I usually sound negative to begin with. Even with games I end up really loving people often think I freaking hate them. Bad habit of mine, certainly nothing personal. Also yesterday was a bad day.

I havent refunded the game. I figured I should wait to see what you might have to say, and if I might have missed something important.

[antonkudin]

If you explore the area (or download layout via terminal), you'd have a map of that area. If you leave and return its regenerated and is now completely different.

I'm really not sure how you'd keep the map if the area layout is completely different. The old map is forgotten, like the old layout it represented.

Maybe i'm not understanding something?

You do have the icons on map for things you discovered, they'll be in new locations but at least you can navigate to them.

Maybe you want to keep layout and don't ever change the layout? You can do that by setting the seed in options (which is option for speed running and the like).

[Misery]

Ah, see, I think I read the original post wrong. What I thought happened is that you leave, go to some other zone, come back, the level itself remains as it was, but the *map* data is lost. It seems that is not the case.

So, I had it wrong, which is okay by me in this case.

Hm, I'm curious though: why have it do that at all? I honestly cant think of even one other game that changes the layout/shape of an area *during* a single run. That is likely to confuse the heck out of many players (even if it's explained in game), which could definitely be an issue. Sure confused me here. Having it alter shape between saving and exiting/reloading (during a run) is even more odd. Now, having it change if you get killed by something or win the run and start a new one, THAT does make total sense to me and is what people will probably be expecting.


I will say one thing though: Not starting with the mapping device is still very frustrating regardless of any of that. There seems to be quite alot of exploring before you can even get the thing, which so far has mostly just been irritating (due to the non-stop backtracking because of repeatedly getting lost). That's the one big thing that could do with a change, as I see it. Other aspects of the game have mostly been fine.

[antonkudin]

You sure you were using PING feature when tracking down objectives?

[Misery]

Originally posted by antonkudin:

You sure you were using PING feature when tracking down objectives?

Yeah, but it honestly just didnt really help much. Particularly since it would occaisionally seem to randomly switch to pointing at a totally different objective. But even when it was pointing at one and sticking with it, it was still very easy to get lost. It's a maze, after all. Something might be in a particular direction, but that doesnt necessarily mean that going directly in that direction will get you there. I still found myself ending up in the same spots over and over.

[antonkudin]

Its not drawing you a path to walk on to, its just a suggested direction. Sometimes its inaccurate, because not all areas are possible to 'walk' by it's AI. I keep improving it, tho.

[skinneejoe]

Is there going to be an explanation in the story as to why the area layout changes every time you exit and then re enter? Rooms in real life don't work this way, and I'm very thankful for that :)

I tend to agree that the map should generate from the start and never change through one playthrough.

When the map changes I end up just following ping. I don't want to explore because I'll just get lost, die, and then the map is all different again. And the objective I was working towards is now irrelevant. So I just go back to following ping. Which renders the map pointless. And dulls the interest in exploration.

I would just like to hear an explanation of what value changing the layout mid game adds. I'm having trouble seeing it.

[antonkudin]

There's currently no lore about it in game and it's planned. You can think of it as a 'Curse' from Spelunky.

Im also considering a 'locking' mechanism where area will stop 'changing', if player completes a specific task in that area.

[skinneejoe]

I like the locking idea, and if it fits into the lore that helps too. Thanks!

[mejorqvos]

What about optimization? I have a ♥♥♥♥ PC, and sometimes its lags enough to not be able to tell that a missile is coming in my direction, for example.

When I think about optimization, I think something like Dishonored, that game was really well optimized and run pretty decently on my ♥♥♥♥♥♥ set up.

If you didn't play Dishonored, what they did was to lower the quality of everything, I think, from zones you weren't around or weren't directly looking at them. So why not do the same? There is a whole lot of a map that it's not being explored nor looked at, but its still there making things laggy.

If you haven't done that already, I think It could boost FPS by a lot. Make zones of the map gradually de-load when you are far enough from them, in a specified radio big enough for the player to not see everything load as he walks through.

[Retr0Pixel]

Well, that's not new. Diablo 2 also resets its maps every time you restart the game. yay.. horrible, refund *rage*

thanks god, megasphere has a pathfinder function.