Ladies playing the game - thoughts?

[tonyh]

I think its fair to say a huge part of the game is the interactions on radio between Henry and Delilah.

I just wondered what members of the 'fairer sex' playing the game, which is arguably aimed at men imagining themselves as Henry in the main character role, thought of the interactions and overall experience of playing the role of the man in this game.

I bet it would of been a great twist to swap roles i.e. playing Delilah and Henry on the other end of the radio?

[Gyson]

Not sure what all the tumblr comments are about as it's a valid discussion.

I have a gaming friend who usually won't play games that don't offer a female protagonist because she has a difficult time connecting to that character when it's male. To me, that's totally understandable (I myself feel very detatched from a character when it's female instead of male.. it's an immersion issue).

I wanted to recommend Firewatch to her because (aside from the player's character being a male) I think it's the type of game she'd really enjoy, but I know not offering a female character for her to get behind the wheel of is usually a deal-breaker.

It would have been great if both voice actors had recorded dialogue for *both* parts, allowing players to go through the same game with either a male *or* female protagonist. Obviously that would be a lot more expensive, but maybe Firewatch would then appeal to a larger audience.

[xOEDragonx]

Though this game did not meet some of the expectations I originally had for it, being a female playing as a male character did not take anything away from the story nor did it cause me to enjoy it any less. That's the magic of roleplaying, being someone you're not, gender not always relevant. This is especially true for a game in this style where it's made to tell a single individual's story. We didn't play as just any old guy. We played as a man named Henry, with his own backstory. At no point was I offended or upset that I couldn't imagine myself in his shoes.

But then, this goes for most games for me. The character's gender is rarely relevant to the gameplay at all, so there is rarely any disconnect for me. Even in games with female character options, I find that I still often choose to play as a male character. The female characters often come off as annoying to me, especially their voices. Perhaps it's because I'm not an overly effeminate female, much more of a tomboy, so a classic or stereotyped female character just doesn't suit me the way a stereotypical male character would.

But like I said, in games like this where the story is meant to be told from a single point of view, I find gender completely irrelevant. It's a story, no different than a movie or book with a male protagonist. The only plausible disconnect one should experience at all is simply because they are not Henry, not because they are not male.

Until they create every single game with sliders or something that allow you to literally build your character from the ground up, including everything from skin tone to waistline to voice pitch to chest buldge or crotch buldge... the people who argue for main character options in games will unlikely ever be satisfied. I personally find that entire argument unnecessary. I would much, much, MUCH rather see developers spend time on their game's graphics, stories, mechanics, anything more important then the soulless body that I happen to inhabit while experincing those things.

[Gyson]

Originally posted by xOEDragonx:

But like I said, in games like this where the story is meant to be told from a single point of view, I find gender completely irrelevant. It's a story, no different than a movie or book with a male protagonist. The only plausible disconnect one should experience at all is simply because they are not Henry, not because they are not male.

Judging by the number of people who were surprisingly upset about Henry and Deliliah not getting together at the end of the game, I suspect many a player did in fact imagine themselves as Henry while playing Firewatch. I'm doubting all the complainers were just hopeless romantics looking for a happy ending. I think many were simply upset they didn't "get the girl" in the end after all the effort placed into the "relationship".

And I would argue there's a substantial difference (as far as immersion goes) between playing a game that literally puts you in the first-person view of a character and allows you to choose between multiple dialogue responses, and a movie or book that is often presented from a third-person/omni perspective which the viewer/reader has zero control over.

Originally posted by xOEDragonx:

..That's the magic of roleplaying, being someone you're not, gender not always relevant..

...The character's gender is rarely relevant to the gameplay at all, so there is rarely any disconnect for me..

The above statements seems to conflict with the next comment..

Originally posted by xOEDragonx:

Even in games with female character options, I find that I still often choose to play as a male character. The female characters often come off as annoying to me, especially their voices. Perhaps it's because I'm not an overly effeminate female, much more of a tomboy, so a classic or stereotyped female character just doesn't suit me the way a stereotypical male character would.

..because is there really that much of a difference between a male/female gamer not being able to form a strong connection with a female/male protagonist and your struggle to put yourself into the shoes of female characters who are particularly feminine? I think the problem is very simlar - "that character is not like me and thus I have a hard time imaginging myself as them" - whether because of gender difference, personality, aesthetics, the fact that the protagonist always runs around in a bunny outfit, whatever.. it's just a matter of how much you're able to look past before the connection fails.

To be honest, I'm struggling to think of an example of a game that does offer gender choices (usually MMOs) that (outside of the character model and animations) portrays the genders differently (i.e. "overly effeminate"). I know many male players will play a female character for the sole reason of having the preferred eye-candy on the screen, implying that they are unable to make any form of immersive connection with said character at all. To them it really is a third-person adventure. I like imagining myself as the character, though, and in my case the correct gender definitely helps.

[xOEDragonx]

Originally posted by Gyson:

Judging by the number of people who were surprisingly upset about Henry and Deliliah not getting together at the end of the game, I suspect many a player did in fact imagine themselves as Henry while playing Firewatch. I'm doubting all the complainers were just hopeless romantics looking for a happy ending. I think many were simply upset they didn't "get the girl" in the end after all the effort placed into the "relationship".

And I would argue there's a substantial difference (as far as immersion goes) between playing a game that literally puts you in the first-person view of a character and allows you to choose between multiple dialogue responses, and a movie or book that is often presented from a third-person/omni perspective which the viewer/reader has zero control over.

I don't believe I suggested that their weren't people who imagined themselves as Henry. I also did. Isn't that sort of the point of a first person game? My point in saying gender is irrelevant to me is that this story could have been told from a woman's point of view in Henry's exact situation talking to a man on the radio... and I probably would not have felt any different towards the story itself. There would still be a "didn't get the boy" in the end mentality. The story doesn't change. The OP wanted to know about female disconnect in this game with a male character, that was my reason for saying that the only disconnect I can imagine is because you're not actually Henry.... and since you and I both believe most people still imagined themselves as Henry, then I believe we're in agreement there. Imagining yourself as Henry doesn't (or shouldn't) break immersion, whether you're male or female IRL. Because in the game you're Henry. Not a random faceless male character. I was merely trying to justify why someone may feel a disconnect and I didn't have a good answer because I don't believe there is one.

Originally posted by Gyson:

The above statements seems to conflict with the next comment..
..because is there really that much of a difference between a male/female gamer not being able to form a strong connection with a female/male protagonist and your struggle to put yourself into the shoes of female characters who are particularly feminine? I think the problem is very simlar - "that character is not like me and thus I have a hard time imaginging myself as them" - whether because of gender difference, personality, aesthetics, the fact that the protagonist always runs around in a bunny outfit, whatever.. it's just a matter of how much you're able to look past before the connection fails.

To be honest, I'm struggling to think of an example of a game that does offer gender choices (usually MMOs) that (outside of the character model and animations) portrays the genders differently (i.e. "overly effeminate"). I know many male players will play a female character for the sole reason of having the preferred eye-candy on the screen, implying that they are unable to make any form of immersive connection with said character at all. To them it really is a third-person adventure.

I suppose you have a point, there is a similarity, but there is still no simple resolution. As I said in the end, until you can literally build your character from the ground up there will never be a perfect character for anyone, gender aside. But even in my situation, I still don't feel outcasted or discriminated against because there is no in-between character to fit my every desire. I'm not going to avoid a game because the main character is male, the same way I don't avoid seeing modern movies where, guess what, male protagnists are still more common than females.

Even if I hate the character's voice, or their skin tone doesn't match mine, or they've got something different going on between their legs, I still don't find the disconnect that others do. I honestly can't think of a single game I've ever played in my life where I can recall being even remotely upset or disappointed about the game simply because of a trait of the character I played as. They're not me, they're not female, they're not white, they're not young, so now I somehow can't enjoy the story or purpose of the game because of this? I'm not trying to disturb or offend anyone, I just don't see why this is such a priority to people.

Gender roles are essentially removed from most modern video games as far as I know. Female characters can still swing the heavy weapons flawlessy, jump ten feet into the air to pull themselves up on a rock ledge, and run as infinitely as their male counterparts (where game mechanics allow). So, the character model is the apparent issue. In a first person game where you never even see your character, how can this be so disconcerting? Even if given the option to choose a male or female character, you can almost guarantee your gender representative won't look, act, or sound anything like you. But as long as the gender matches yours, that's better? Perhaps my view on this issue is less about genders, and more about the variety of humans in general. One can't expect a developer to implement a Sims-style character designer mechanism into every single game, so no character will ever be perfect. So like you said, it's just a matter of how much you're willing to look past before the connection fails. I'm pretty sure that once the character is not you, or not the way you'd like to portray yourself, then the connection has already failed. So why so much emphasis on gender alone?

Anyway, this all just opinionated rambling. I don't expect people to agree with me. I just believe that there are so many other things in video games that I'd like to see improved upon that messing around with a topic that won't ever completely satisfy everyone just shouldn't be a top priority. If all the extra work put into making both a single male and female character satisified all and expanded their market significantly, that's awesome, go for it. But it won't. It might make many current gamers happy, it might not, but it would likely only encourage a minority or people, such as your friend, to buy more games. That's not exactly incentive for developers.

[ThatJaneNg]

Speaking as a woman gamer here, not as a dev. One of the the main reasons I have issues with many women characters in video games in general (or lack of), is that the women characters (if they exist) are often flat, one note, or don't really have a life of their own. Playing a man has never been a problem for me, especially in single-story-viewpoint narratives where the character is rounded, and allows me to empathize. Playing any character in a world where women are non-existant or are all boring characters is the issue for me personally.

Now speaking as a dev a bit, even though Henry is the player character, we've always thought of Delilah as equally imporant. They are both leads in their story.

[Gasivodo]

WOW a lot of 0 here:-( Not that I don't trust you. But I do not!

[ZenMaster]

To be honest, if Henry was female, the comments on this character might not be so nice. A woman who cheated on her seriously ill husband? Imagine how many b-words she would get lol

[ZenMaster]

Originally posted by xOEDragonx:

Originally posted by Gyson:

Judging by the number of people who were surprisingly upset about Henry and Deliliah not getting together at the end of the game, I suspect many a player did in fact imagine themselves as Henry while playing Firewatch. I'm doubting all the complainers were just hopeless romantics looking for a happy ending. I think many were simply upset they didn't "get the girl" in the end after all the effort placed into the "relationship".

And I would argue there's a substantial difference (as far as immersion goes) between playing a game that literally puts you in the first-person view of a character and allows you to choose between multiple dialogue responses, and a movie or book that is often presented from a third-person/omni perspective which the viewer/reader has zero control over.

I don't believe I suggested that their weren't people who imagined themselves as Henry. I also did. Isn't that sort of the point of a first person game? My point in saying gender is irrelevant to me is that this story could have been told from a woman's point of view in Henry's exact situation talking to a man on the radio... and I probably would not have felt any different towards the story itself. There would still be a "didn't get the boy" in the end mentality. The story doesn't change. The OP wanted to know about female disconnect in this game with a male character, that was my reason for saying that the only disconnect I can imagine is because you're not actually Henry.... and since you and I both believe most people still imagined themselves as Henry, then I believe we're in agreement there. Imagining yourself as Henry doesn't (or shouldn't) break immersion, whether you're male or female IRL. Because in the game you're Henry. Not a random faceless male character. I was merely trying to justify why someone may feel a disconnect and I didn't have a good answer because I don't believe there is one.

Originally posted by Gyson:

The above statements seems to conflict with the next comment..
..because is there really that much of a difference between a male/female gamer not being able to form a strong connection with a female/male protagonist and your struggle to put yourself into the shoes of female characters who are particularly feminine? I think the problem is very simlar - "that character is not like me and thus I have a hard time imaginging myself as them" - whether because of gender difference, personality, aesthetics, the fact that the protagonist always runs around in a bunny outfit, whatever.. it's just a matter of how much you're able to look past before the connection fails.

To be honest, I'm struggling to think of an example of a game that does offer gender choices (usually MMOs) that (outside of the character model and animations) portrays the genders differently (i.e. "overly effeminate"). I know many male players will play a female character for the sole reason of having the preferred eye-candy on the screen, implying that they are unable to make any form of immersive connection with said character at all. To them it really is a third-person adventure.

I suppose you have a point, there is a similarity, but there is still no simple resolution. As I said in the end, until you can literally build your character from the ground up there will never be a perfect character for anyone, gender aside. But even in my situation, I still don't feel outcasted or discriminated against because there is no in-between character to fit my every desire. I'm not going to avoid a game because the main character is male, the same way I don't avoid seeing modern movies where, guess what, male protagnists are still more common than females.

Even if I hate the character's voice, or their skin tone doesn't match mine, or they've got something different going on between their legs, I still don't find the disconnect that others do. I honestly can't think of a single game I've ever played in my life where I can recall being even remotely upset or disappointed about the game simply because of a trait of the character I played as. They're not me, they're not female, they're not white, they're not young, so now I somehow can't enjoy the story or purpose of the game because of this? I'm not trying to disturb or offend anyone, I just don't see why this is such a priority to people.

Gender roles are essentially removed from most modern video games as far as I know. Female characters can still swing the heavy weapons flawlessy, jump ten feet into the air to pull themselves up on a rock ledge, and run as infinitely as their male counterparts (where game mechanics allow). So, the character model is the apparent issue. In a first person game where you never even see your character, how can this be so disconcerting? Even if given the option to choose a male or female character, you can almost guarantee your gender representative won't look, act, or sound anything like you. But as long as the gender matches yours, that's better? Perhaps my view on this issue is less about genders, and more about the variety of humans in general. One can't expect a developer to implement a Sims-style character designer mechanism into every single game, so no character will ever be perfect. So like you said, it's just a matter of how much you're willing to look past before the connection fails. I'm pretty sure that once the character is not you, or not the way you'd like to portray yourself, then the connection has already failed. So why so much emphasis on gender alone?

Anyway, this all just opinionated rambling. I don't expect people to agree with me. I just believe that there are so many other things in video games that I'd like to see improved upon that messing around with a topic that won't ever completely satisfy everyone just shouldn't be a top priority. If all the extra work put into making both a single male and female character satisified all and expanded their market significantly, that's awesome, go for it. But it won't. It might make many current gamers happy, it might not, but it would likely only encourage a minority or people, such as your friend, to buy more games. That's not exactly incentive for developers.

They were being so upset without hooking up with Delilah in the end of the game, even so many of them were yelling about Delilah was too fat and ugly to come out but I wasn't surprised coz that wasn't a new thing anyway. I don't think girls would be that much triggered as man did.

[Qiana]

Not every game "problem" can be fixed by game developers. Some "problems" need a whole different sort of "fix". ;)

[Mysti_Fogg]

Alright, a response before reading everyone, and then maybe I'll come back to say more.

Things to note:

1) In both lit and games, and probably movies, too, women have been trained from a very early age to accept seeing through the eyes of a male protagonist because most stuff is through the eyes of a male protagonist. Women don't watch Indiana Jones and want to be his lovestruck students, they usually want to be Indy (or his permanent and equal companion). In any case, women are practiced at just accepting a protag's stated gender and rolling with it. Men have way less practice at being chill when the gender doesn't match their own.

2) Despite this, in gaming you run across more men who have been playing men for so long that a good proportion will find playing as a woman as a nice change in the same way that playing as an alien is a nice change. Meanwhile, you have a lot more women who still struggle to find a female protag because it's still a novelty to be able to play as one.

Notes about me:

1) stuff above comes from study. That's what degrees in English and Humanities will get you.

2) I, like most women who identify as gamers, am not a stereotypical female. On Briggs-Meyers, I'm an INTJ, which is something like 2% of all women. Women in the US normally prefer Feeling over Thinking (75% to 25%), while men prefer Thinking to Feeling. I also prefer Thinking to Feeling. However, because I'm a woman and it's socially expected that I do emotional labor even though INTJs suck the most at it out of all 16 types, I have entire algorithms I run in my head to try to understand and come up with appropriate responses to other people's emotions. I mention this because I am really not a "typical" woman as society expects me to be.

3) I am old enough that I started playing when the video games industry was in an F you, you will play as a man and you will like it, and if you don't like it, don't buy the game (ie the early '80s). My first female character was Rosella of Daventry, and I got into KQIV when it was issued as a collection, not when it first came out. And while I liked Rosella, her story was still all about saving her dad because she was a good girl.

K?
K.

1) Swapping the genders of the protag and Voice on the Radio would make it scarier. Henry, though we can't see him, as an average guy has a decent chance of being able to fight off a human who attempted to attack him. A woman of average fitness is physically weaker than a man of similar fitness, and thus less able to fend off attackers.

You want to tell me that you don't get attacked in the game?

You're right.

But you don't know that when you first play through the game.

2) You can't trust anyone in the game initially.

I tried to solve the game, figuring out who to trust. My eventual conclusion was that I could trust anything that was left by the missing teen boy who had been in the cabin. I found the D&D map in the desk. The map clearly indicated the test site as a site in the game. Delilah had been playing with the boy, therefore Delilah knew about the test site, therefore she was lying to Henry, therefore she was the enemy. From that point on, I hated her with a passion and was pissed at the whole "No, she didn't really know and is innocent" thing at the end.

Basically, I see Delilah as a manipulative lying ♥♥♥♥♥ because of my perspective on her guilt (though it was wrong) and her running away at the end.

3) Delilah the Flirt

She's alone. She's bored. She has the opportunity to be the Queen Bee of her area of the forest. So she takes it. I have a much lower opinion of Henry, who has a wife, than I do of her for that particular aspect of her character.

She's his manic pixie dream girl, and in the end, he doesn't get the girl because he's not owed the girl. Unfortunately, this doesn't play well with the previous mystery.

4) Swapping the roles.

Well, women don't have a manic pixie dream girl, but to get the same kind of sexual longing, you'd need to change the voice. Henry is average and has a kind of nasally voice. I really like the actor, btw, but I'm not going to curl up next to my radio to listen to it, while i would say Delilah has a midnight radio DJ voice that you would curl up with.

I'd also raise the expectation that he'd be waiting for you at his tower in the final scene. Delilah running away is cowardly, but she does it because she doesn't want to meet the protag and give flesh to the flirting. Meanwhile, it is waaaaay more cowardly of a man who is your boss to run away from a life threatening situation rather than waiting to see that you make it out okay. Blame it on the social expectation that men are protectors, but ... yeah. Delilah ran from the emotional mess and tangles she was always making. She should have stayed longer for Henry, just to help him because she was responsible for him, but she was weak and not as professional as she should have been. A male version of that would be viewed as weaker for being afraid of the physical threat more than wanting to secure the protag.

5) Sympathy for Delilah as a woman?

None.

She made a mess for her own emotional kicks. More than once. And it bit her in the ass.

So she ran.

See lying ♥♥♥♥♥.

6) Sympathy for Henry?

I feel bad for his situation with his wife. That's difficult.

But he seems to be walking on the edge of having an affair because he's tired and bored.

Major sympathy for him on being terrorized alone in the woods though.

[PlentifulNote]

Great!

[Peridote]

I prefer being given the option to choose my gender in games. However, that wouldn't work within the narrative of this game - unless a lot more work was done with the script.

A woman abandoning her husband with dementia would be perceived VERY differently because of the societal expectations on who the primary caregiver is in a given relationship.

Instead of brief dialogue about "wow, that sucks" you would be compelled to touch on the guilt of both abandoning your significant other AND refusing to do a duty that is expected of you by society.

There's other pieces of the story that also would have to get reworked where a mysterious figure is mistaken for the protagonist (would their gender change too? if they did, that would impact the story too).

Even if you kept the abandoned spouse as being Julia, and you had the protagonist as someone who is Bi/Pan - that would also change the story. Now you have a character who is wrestling with the guilt of running away from a relationship that society prohibits her to even be in for the time period of this piece. Did Julia's family welcome her? Shun her? Those are going to impact the character.

The TL;DR here is that: you can't do a simple gender swap in this game because of how it is fundamentally about the narrative, but it would be very interesting if you explored the story again from another gender's POV.

[Orange]

I honestly empathised with both of the character's motivations pretty well, although Henry's felt more at a distance, but I don't think the gender dynamics made that much of a difference to me

[Axiom808]

Originally posted by Mysti_Fogg:

1) In both lit and games, and probably movies, too, women have been trained from a very early age to accept seeing through the eyes of a male protagonist because most stuff is through the eyes of a male protagonist. Women don't watch Indiana Jones and want to be his lovestruck students, they usually want to be Indy (or his permanent and equal companion). In any case, women are practiced at just accepting a protag's stated gender and rolling with it. Men have way less practice at being chill when the gender doesn't match their own.

2) Despite this, in gaming you run across more men who have been playing men for so long that a good proportion will find playing as a woman as a nice change in the same way that playing as an alien is a nice change. Meanwhile, you have a lot more women who still struggle to find a female protag because it's still a novelty to be able to play as one.

I disagree with this assertion that women are trained to identify with protagonists of the opposite sex and men aren't. Every hear of Metroid? Tomb Raider? Terminator? Aliens? Just because there aren't as many primary female protagonists in movies or games, that doesn't mean men aren't able to emotionally connect and identify with a female protagonist. This mindset honestly just strikes me as more of the old "women are conditioned by society and have no agency" while men are somehow completely one-dimensional with no ability to identify with anyone outside their own perspective. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but statements like that just seem baseless at best and outright sexist to both men and women at worst.

[Penis Parker]

Wait, people manage to relate to and connect with characters that don't correspond to their gender???? Who would have thought!!!!!