Turn.... the plasma... DOWN.

[catbox99]

Okay, so for my SP game, I'll be totally fixing the frigging plasma levels from the AI bases. However, for MP, I can't make that adjustment, so I'm just going to vent my rage on whatever idiot decided to up the plasma damage to shields to the point where it isn't worth having shields anymore. ALL THAT TIME TO BUILD UP A GAME FEATURE WHICH IS NOW COMPLETELY TRASHED. Seriously. Why do you guys keep doing stuff like this? The mechanic worked. It should have been left alone. When the 4 plasma cannons on a T1 base can take down my T2 shields down to half in less than 5 seconds, it reads as the definition of BAD BALANCE. So, let's see... can't get near them with SVs or HVs.. they one hit your shields. Don't dare go in without shields; they'll pop you in a hit or two.... probably just one. they Can't get near them with a CV... they 4 hit your shields. And they range every weapon on your ship. And you can't use your main guns on a planet (explain to my why we're doing that again... oh yeah, that's right BALANCE). That means the only way you are getting to that shielded T1 is to tunnel.

Congratulations. You've invented Minecraft.

[ravien_ff]

Turret AI has been buggy forever. I hope they can fix it soon because it messes with both players and POIs.

As for damage not registering, a way to reproduce the issue and a bug report would help them fix it. It sounds more like you're encountering multiple bugs that make it harder than it normally would be, throwing off the balance.

And personally I don't think the drone bases on the starting planets should be as heavily defended as a drone base on high level planets, but they are for some reason. It's a bit much for new players to try to take on so early.

[catbox99]

You know what the deal with the complex is? It's so simple, I didn't even think about it. It's right on the the map transition. That's why it isn't showing up until you're on top of it, that's why it doesn't always register damage, as you move through the transition, and all the rest of the bugs associated with the type of transition that is. It's just that for whatever reason, that seed dumped the drone base and all the accompanying buildings there. Of course, that doesn't change the plasma damage. And it doesn't explain why there continue to be problems with the map transition. But at least it makes me feel better.

[Phoenix]

Just want to throw my 2 cents in on this topic. That reaction delay for my HV turrets can be aggravating for sure. But I have also been able to use it to my advantage a few times when its the enemy that has the delay, The increase in POI turret damage though is so not cool. Totally wrecked my HV after that patch because i missed it in the patch notes. Digging a tunnel to take out a base is just cheesy in most circumstances. So until its properly re-balanced or just put back the way it was before the change ive just increased my max shields and recharge rate in the config. In the starter system it can get pretty rough trying to take down the Drone Base because that is when you can least afford to replace anything. I can see some increase in the damage from POI's but right now its just retarded.

[ravien_ff]

Do alien plasma turrets really hit people that often? Even in a HV you can dodge most incoming plasma fire, and the lasers just tickle.

[catbox99]

Some of it is determined by difficulty level. In the config, there are different detection/response/range/rotation speeds depending on playfield difficulty setting. So, sometimes, the plasma seems like it comes in a little faster than others, and sometimes the base agros quickly and shoots out to full range... it depends on difficulty setting.

Then, too, it doesn't help when your best weapon has half the range of the ones on the bases (or less, actually). You can miss a bunch of incoming fire, but as you can't lock targets, sooner or later you're going to have to fly straight. Lining up to take your shot with 6 plasma's firing at you is a good way to get hit a few times, then add in the other bases. If you can get directly overhead, you're in a much better position to do damage, but the new arrangements make that harder to do. Flying away to let your shield recharge is another time you can seriously get hit, because even in half-rear vision, you can't track everything. I spread out the criticals in my builds, but once your shields are down, you will get hit fairly quickly if more than one base is shooting at you.

Mind you, a single base, or a base out of range of other bases is dead. Sure, it can hit you, but you'll take out a turret or two on one side before you have to run (there are some bases big enough to cover their own overheads), and once everything is down on one side, the base is dead. You could also do the overhead shoot. Interesting thing, though - I was shooting up a defense base that was just a little outside coverage, 6 plasma cannons, 4 lasers.... but strangely, the lasers never fired.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by ravien_ff:

Do alien plasma turrets really hit people that often? Even in a HV you can dodge most incoming plasma fire, and the lasers just tickle.

Between other nearby bases, obstacles such as trees and rocks, ground infantry firing rockets and lasers, drones overhead that seem to spawn faster now (minigun drones eat shields up fast), and throw in whatever existing bug may be affecting the situation...... oh and if your pc cant handle all that action (luckily mine can) it gets challenging pretty fast. But even so just one of the Defense buildings by itself with 6 or so plasma turrets on it can eat you for lunch if you bounce off a tree or rock you didnt see to the side while straffing. I use custom game settings myself. Medium difficulty but high drone presence and attack. Before the plasma turret change it could still get dicey if im not careful. Still had to back off occasionally to recharge shields but at least shields lasted long enough to actually make progress on a Drone Base attack. Now though its insane getting shields knocked out in 20 seconds or usually less time than that. Im using jrandalls Ballista HV. Perhaps not the best on the workshop but its always had excellent performance and ive learned how to use it always staying in motion, NEVER sit still with any HV. So yeah into the config file i went to fix the situation.

If they REALLY want to change something about the plasma turrets they could allow them to fire straight up but dial that damage back to what it was. I could easily accept that challenge because its kind of cheaty anyway just parking a unshielded sv over the top and shooting the plasma turrets with a couple gatlings in early game. I know alot of ppl use that to their advantage so.... sorry for suggesting that. :)

[catbox99]

There are several issues. The damage from the plasma, and the reasons why it should be lasers, not plasma that damage the hull shields, I have already listed. One issue is that, with the increased plasma damage, your hv is no longer the hover tank it has been billed to be. Previously, I had an HV which could move into the center of a complex and take down shields and guns, withdrawing at times to recharge. That was always a bit OP but, at the moment, the hv has been relegated pretty much to mining or mob hunting. It can be used in a supporting role against structures, but in open terrain, it's a liability because it is slower, the opposing shields are stronger, and every base gun ranges the weapons available to the HV.

There's another issue, one which I didn't see mentioned by Scooby at all. Once your HV is "under" ground level, if underground turrets are turned off, your turrets can't fire either. If you are stopped long enough to harvest trees, even in the space of the bump and buzz, you're going to get hit multiple times. Ignore that bit of advice from the SP up there. If you have to get rid of trees, shoot them ahead of time. Much, much quicker, and you can do it on the fly.

Here's another thing that hasn't been mentioned: the shield recharge times have been nerfed, and the cost has increased. The recharge rate for AI base shields has been increased at the same time, as has the amount of damage they can sustain.

At harder settings, or on harder planets, where drones have more than one attack capability, they move from being a nuisance during a base clearing, to being a serious threat. Their attacks are much stronger, and even the weakest ones have a substantial amount of hp. Players have reported some of these units following the player all the way back to their base (although I think those are the random patrol ones). The new AI structures have sometimes half a dozen sitting on the ground, waiting and, unlike the little base sentry guns, and maybe the lasers, you can't ignore them, because their attacks add up. In fact, the planet-side drones are much more of a threat than the space drones, which are no threat at all (plasma bombers aside).

Of course, none of this addresses the OP, which had to do with the plasma damage to shields.

[ravien_ff]

Difficulty settings or planet level has no effect on turrets I believe.

The only things that difficulty settings affect are the number of drones, and the damage and health of entities (drones and other NPCs).
Playfield level only affects the damage and health of enemies.

There is no changes to AI or the capabilities of NPCs with higher difficulties. And none of the settings change POI turrets at all. A plasma turret on a level 1 POI on easy settings will be the exact same as a plasma turret on a level 10 POI on hard.

[catbox99]

That's not exactly right. In each playfield folder are files related to the manager. For example: managerShipFighterDetection, which has to do with the range at which your sv will provoke an attack. Additionally, there are manageroverride files, which alter the base values of the manager files. Some of those files deal with things like qty, type, patrol, etc., but others address range, detection, attack, etc for each type of unit. The values change from playfield to playfield. If the default was a constant, each playfield would use standard the standard manager files. In fact, each playfield could reference the same basic manager files for all functions, and you wouldn't need manager data in the playfield folders at all.

[ravien_ff]

You're talking about the .dat files in the playfields folders of the save game?

[catbox99]

Yep. playfield folders. In any event, if it hadn't changed yet, and my experience is based on a single hard start on the new swamp planet (also set to hard) that there seems to be a tangible difference. Not only in terms of awareness, but in terms of damage. That was in 12.4, so I'm currently goofing around with 12.5. on of the things I noticed was that one of those hexapod things (formerly "alien insect") had one hit killed me in light armor. On normal settings, it takes roughly 3 hits to kill you.

My personal opinion is that the number of potential values has increased, and that they are affected by modifiers which are also variable.

[catbox99]

Ah, Scooby, you have the option to be left alone, and I'd never take it away from you. No one is forcing you to read my posts, agree with them, or respond to them. They do not affect you in any way, shape, or form, other than being something over which you can exercise no control. And if that's a problem for you, then I would suggest that you will not find a remedy for it in a game forum.

[ravien_ff]

Armor has durability and it goes away really fast.
NPCs also have different levels. You can see it on their name plates.

I have never once encountered a turret that did different amounts of damage.
I never encountered NPCs of the same type and level that did different amounts of damage either.

From everything I have seen both from my own observations and the observations of those who do config work on the AI, the AI's behavior is hard coded based on the various .ecf config files. There might be behavior randomization going on behind the scenes but this is the first time I've heard of it being tied to difficulty.


You can, of course, easily test this by spawning enemies of a specific level using the debug menu and comparing their behavior and damage. It will always be consistent based on NPC level and enemy difficulty setting.

[catbox99]

The level seems to be tied to playfield variables. But yeah, I'm doing something like that right now.

BTW, remember that weapon damage, range, etc. is also determined by playfield settings. How? Different damage and range in space, for example. Another would be the dependency on atmospheric density. In other words, some of the alterations are already being done.

Consider this, too, because I might be right in a different way. If I change the detection range, response time, firing rate, and rotation time, I have actually changed the damage done, right? And if I do it that way, I don't have to change the base damage... except for all the other dependencies.

[The Big Brzezinski]

Here's a question; what exactly do we want the process of engaging a shielded POI to look like? Tunneling seems to be the meta, and I'm getting a lot done with spin2win, but these are both basically exploits. What is it we're actually intended to do, though? Precision SV strikes against shield generators? Commando insertions on the roof? Massive dreadnought battleships or super-heavy tanks blasting away with artillery barrages? Death loop charges to get under enemy guns? It's very difficult to legitimately assault a shielded POI as a team, and basically impossible for a solo player. This was the situation even before more powerful player turrets became available to POI designers.

When it comes to shielded POIs, where exactly do we find the fun?