Heat seeking missiles

[JustVibe]

Battle in space is difficult as is, heat seeking missiles would be awesome and allow for bigger battles with less clutter.

[Deadoon]

I can see one very big problem with heat seekers: macross missile massacre.

Have a small ship that fires a barrage of 40 missiles at whatever you target, and has enough anti-missile weapons and you can destroy everything in your path.

If you put them only on capital class ships, there is a bigger problem: they discourage small class ships, unless you can put anti-missile systems on a small ship, and then you basically have a meta war between porcipine bombers covered in ams with a ♥♥♥♥ ton of rocket launchers poking through the shell to take out capitals with ease and MMM capital ships similar level of AMS spam.

[JustVibe]

Then add a limit to (2) per ship? Problem Solved. Also flares and a cooldown timer should fix any other problems, especially flares.

[aevansjr35]

Radar guided would make more sense. Add chaff as well and point defenses to.

[aevansjr35]

Originally posted by Deadoon:

I can see one very big problem with heat seekers: macross missile massacre.

Have a small ship that fires a barrage of 40 missiles at whatever you target, and has enough anti-missile weapons and you can destroy everything in your path.

If you put them only on capital class ships, there is a bigger problem: they discourage small class ships, unless you can put anti-missile systems on a small ship, and then you basically have a meta war between porcipine bombers covered in ams with a ♥♥♥♥ ton of rocket launchers poking through the shell to take out capitals with ease and MMM capital ships similar level of AMS spam.

cool downs point defenses and ammo restrictions would solve it.

[JustVibe]

Originally posted by aevansjr35:

Radar guided would make more sense. Add chaff as well and point defenses to.

Hell yes. I would love if you could bring Capital Ships to planets too, I'm sure this will be added in the future.

[Deadoon]

Originally posted by aevansjr35:

Originally posted by Deadoon:

I can see one very big problem with heat seekers: macross missile massacre.

Have a small ship that fires a barrage of 40 missiles at whatever you target, and has enough anti-missile weapons and you can destroy everything in your path.

If you put them only on capital class ships, there is a bigger problem: they discourage small class ships, unless you can put anti-missile systems on a small ship, and then you basically have a meta war between porcipine bombers covered in ams with a ♥♥♥♥ ton of rocket launchers poking through the shell to take out capitals with ease and MMM capital ships similar level of AMS spam.

cool downs point defenses and ammo restrictions would solve it.

Then firing more at once(more launchers) becomes even more valuable, or having two groups firing at different intervals for anti-chaff.

Point defenses are anti-missile systems.

It would end up in an arms race between homing spam and AMS as long as the weapons systems are not extremely weak. Which at that point a few ams to thin the herds and a thicker outer wall would work better.

Originally posted by Infinite Control:

Then add a limit to (2) per ship? Problem Solved. Also flares and a cooldown timer should fix any other problems, especially flares.

Cooldown would have no effect, if you make a ship that can take out another via "core drilling" with a single barrage there is no counter other than who fires first scenario.

If you add in a limit of only a few, then you may as well have them totally automated and fire at any enemy within a targeting circle from the cockpit, which in that case they would be a required weapon to be maxed out on every ship.

The flares will either work TOO well, as in they always attract the missile, or they will not work well enough( maximum number attracted). If they do not work well enough you will end up with a problem of being to out gun flares. If they work too well the weapon system becomes entirely useless, as any ship with a flare launcher will be popping them out constantly as the battle goes on.



Direct fire weapons are the most easily balanced and counterable. If you cannot simply avoid them you either are not good enough or are too big. If you are too big, you need to get more armor to mitigate their effectiveness.

[aevansjr35]

Originally posted by Deadoon:

Originally posted by aevansjr35:

cool downs point defenses and ammo restrictions would solve it.

Then firing more at once(more launchers) becomes even more valuable, or having two groups firing at different intervals for anti-chaff.

Point defenses are anti-missile systems.

It would end up in an arms race between homing spam and AMS as long as the weapons systems are not extremely weak. Which at that point a few ams to thin the herds and a thicker outer wall would work better.

Originally posted by Infinite Control:

Then add a limit to (2) per ship? Problem Solved. Also flares and a cooldown timer should fix any other problems, especially flares.

Cooldown would have no effect, if you make a ship that can take out another via "core drilling" with a single barrage there is no counter other than who fires first scenario.

If you add in a limit of only a few, then you may as well have them totally automated and fire at any enemy within a targeting circle from the cockpit, which in that case they would be a required weapon to be maxed out on every ship.

The flares will either work TOO well, as in they always attract the missile, or they will not work well enough( maximum number attracted). If they do not work well enough you will end up with a problem of being to out gun flares. If they work too well the weapon system becomes entirely useless, as any ship with a flare launcher will be popping them out constantly as the battle goes on.



Direct fire weapons are the most easily balanced and counterable. If you cannot simply avoid them you either are not good enough or are too big. If you are too big, you need to get more armor to mitigate their effectiveness.

Disagree. Direct fire weapons make it whoever has the best connection wins. and capital ships and point defenses make sense .. have them on naval vessels just for that reason.

[Deadoon]

Originally posted by aevansjr35:

Disagree. Direct fire weapons make it whoever has the best connection wins. and capital ships and point defenses make sense .. have them on naval vessels just for that reason.

That is a fault of the netcode, proper interpolation of connection would negate that problem.

And When I say anti-missile system I am talking about stuff like the Phlanx CIWS. I am using the battletech term[www.sarna.net] for them. Also the official name for those systems isn't point defense, it is close in weapons system.

[NickVanGuard327]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[JustVibe]

Originally posted by Nick_VanGuard327:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Wow, amazing input, thanks.

Originally posted by Deadoon:

Clipped*

Wait you're saying cooldown would have no effect because the first person who fires wins, and then say flares would work too well? Which is it?

Once there's no unlimited ammo none of what you say will be relevant. It's not as if mid fight you're going to get out of your ship and reload. So if they fire 3 missiles each with a 5 second cooldown and your enemy only has 20 flares, 6 missiles per barrage, that will last 3 rounds. Also, no heat seeking missiles are perfect they wouldn't chase someone forever because of fuel. Simple, make it so that they have X range of maybe 500m and you could easily avoid them.

TL;DR

I really think a lot of people overthink simple solutions. As long as the tracking on the missiles isn't overly accurate, they have a certain flight time and range, and have suitable cooldowns and counter measures, none of the arguments against them are relevant.

[Deadoon]

Originally posted by Infinite Control:

Originally posted by Nick_VanGuard327:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Wow, amazing input, thanks.

Originally posted by aevansjr35:

Clipped*

Wait you're saying cooldown would have no effect because the first person who fires wins, and then say flares would work too well? Which is it?

Once there's no unlimited ammo none of what you say will be relevant. It's not as if mid fight you're going to get out of your ship and reload. So if they fire 3 missiles each with a 5 second cooldown and your enemy only has 20 flares, 6 missiles per barrage, that will last 3 rounds. Also, no heat seeking missiles are perfect they wouldn't chase someone forever because of fuel. Simple, make it so that they have X range of maybe 500m and you could easily avoid them.

TL;DR

I really think a lot of people overthink simple solutions. As long as the tracking on the missiles isn't overly accurate, they have a certain flight time and range, and have suitable cooldowns and counter measures, none of the arguments against them are relevant.

You messed up your quote horribly.
I said that cooldown would have no effect as one could fire enough missiles to kill the opponent in a single barrage.

The flare system is a completely different thought process. If the flares work too well, people will spam flares in combat to prevent you from killing them. If they do not work perfectly, as in they tend to not attract missiles, people will compensate for their attraction rate by firing even more missiles.

So to answer your question: it is neither, and if you read what I had stated it would have been very obvious of that.


Your example is nonsensical( and requires the presupposition that they do limit it to 2 launchers) I had even stated a person who had MANY missile launchers will basically be an impassible annoyance. 2 missile launchers is childs play, try 30-60.

Battletech/mechwarrior is a great example once again, long range missiles in battletech/mechwarrior are extremely weak but fire in barrages of a minimum of 5, with an upper cap of however many systems you can fit on, with some having the ability to launch 80 missiles simultaneously. They do little damage but you really cannot prevent them from actually hitting.

As for your overthinking comment: Why wouldn't they be accurate? You can hit a moving ground target like a tank with a missile, or a plane in the air provided they don't have some anti-radar coating and design; so why not a space craft when you can target and track them already? They will also have a heat signature way outside of background, so a combined IR and radar targeting would negate a flare very easily. A small very hot thing will not be as effective as redirecting a missile when you have a massive warm thing in a world of coldness.


And also tl;dr is not meant for off hand comments that do not have anything to do with what has been said.

[aevansjr35]

When I am talking point defense I am meaning phalanx as well and give opperunities for more stuff to built. Anything from Chaff flare and decoys to phalanxies powered by projectice or energy . Maybe even add shields or some kind of hull enhancements to.

[JustVibe]

Originally posted by Deadoon:

*clipped

Apologies on the misquote. I know what you said as I am able to read and am not a three year old, thanks. If you knew what a cooldown was you would understand that people couldn't just spam more and more missiles. By the time their ammunition was reloaded anything could've happened. You would also understand that the example given was only relevant to the number (2) that I stated and would obviously change if the limit were higher. And by limit, I mean game limit not personal limit, I thought this was obvious. Why would the devs allow you to have 30 launchers when currently you can only have (9) anyway?

As people continue to ignore, this game is nowhere near realistic, and as such real world physics and science do not apply. There are no radars in the game, you can fly a damn stick with a cockpit into space for gods sake. Flares work not because of their individual heat signatures, but because of the combined heat signatures. Also many IRAAM (Infrared Air-to-Air Missiles) don't have extreme accuracy to always hit on the first salvo and will often pass aircraft and try to come back around at said aircraft. As [Aevansjr35] Also pointed out point defense and shields are also something that should be implemented to make space fights more interesting.

I used tl;dr as it is a note indicating a summary of ones writing, which is what that was, not an off hand comment. If you read it again you'll note that it does pertain to what I said.

[Deadoon]

Originally posted by Infinite Control:

Originally posted by Deadoon:

*clipped

Apologies on the misquote. I know what you said as I am able to read and am not a three year old, thanks. If you knew what a cooldown was you would understand that people couldn't just spam more and more missiles. By the time their ammunition was reloaded anything could've happened. You would also understand that the example given was only relevant to the number (2) that I stated and would obviously change if the limit were higher. And by limit, I mean game limit not personal limit, I thought this was obvious. Why would the devs allow you to have 30 launchers when currently you can only have (9) anyway?

As people continue to ignore, this game is nowhere near realistic, and as such real world physics and science do not apply. There are no radars in the game, you can fly a damn stick with a cockpit into space for gods sake. Flares work not because of their individual heat signatures, but because of the combined heat signatures. Also many IRAAM (Infrared Air-to-Air Missiles) don't have extreme accuracy to always hit on the first salvo and will often pass aircraft and try to come back around at said aircraft. As [Aevansjr35] Also pointed out point defense and shields are also something that should be implemented to make space fights more interesting.

I used tl;dr as it is a note indicating a summary of ones writing, which is what that was, not an off hand comment. If you read it again you'll note that it does pertain to what I said.

All of the same type of weapon fire at once, I have 8 rocket launchers and 2 miniguns on my little utility craft, I can fire all of the rockets at once or both miniguns.

Also radars do exist, just are non functional in the current build.

Your tldr actually had nothing to do with your original comment. At no point did you state making the missiles inaccurate, nor did you ever say anything along the lines of overthinking.

I am merely stating that if you have to develop an entire set of new systems and capabilities to counter the single addition of a weapon, and are useless against anything else: you either will make the game focused on that weapon or that equipment will become dead weight and space when someone focuses in a different manner.

Battletech deals with homing weapons by making them something you can weather in massive numbers, but due to the limits of construction in that game, you cannot make a build too overtly loaded compared to one with very little limits.

For this game to work with homing weapons they would need to be larger and weaker than direct fire. Making you a very easy target at the cost of having to aim.

[Little Princess Neko Tina]

This would be more of a small ship to small ship problem, as large ships tend to move too sluggishly and are too big for these missiles to be much use on them, if you design your small ship well enough you should be able to outmanuver them well enough, it's not like they move faster than light or anything. And also as a second balancing thing, you could implement a mass system, and have these ones more heavy than the other ones, so the more you have, the more sluggish your ships move.