Why are 15mm and 30mm rounds so weak?

[Cajun Rabbit]

This is something that has always bugged me.


For reference.. A .50 cal bullet is 12.7mm

So a 15mm round is larger and thus more powerful

A 30mm round is a smaller sized tank round


Why does my base turret, a 30mm cannon, require multiple shots on a humanoid creature to kill it?

Why does it do pathetic damage to troop transport ships?


It's very irritating to have two 30mm cannons on an outpost NOT be able to take down a single troop transport

[Pounce]

If people get tossed around while hit by a bullet aside, I think the topic was the DPS balance of weapons in Empyrion.

A little bit more hurt on booth sides and a little bit less bullet spoonginess would be much better.

They got the dmg of the shotgun against soft targets right, now they should do some about the dmg ratio of the other weapons and that armor has more impact on the game (If i wear heavy with armor mods i should be indeed an human shaped tank, given i move at glacial speed...)

All beam weapons should be an serious heat risk aside pure hp damage.

Projectile better against armored targets, shotgun as is against squishy targets.

All that basic stuff.

And we should get mechs because mechs are awesome.

[Zoekoff]

I see this is still going. I would really like to help but I have to point out a few things first.

Making it realistic is a valid point of view, but not everyone wants it.
Making it balance is a valid point of view, but again not everyone wants it, some people want to mud stomp the other guy.
Reality is just fact, and arguing it wont change that, but guess what not everyone wants reality in their video games ether, and some don't even want it reality.

All these things are should be, could be, would be. And really they have no point here, because nothing is written in stone in this game (yet at least), it is all just a bunch of settings, that you can just change if they do not suit what you think it should be. However, if it is just about trying to change what the default settings are, then we are back to "who cares!", people can just change those too.

I made this just to show people how easy it is, to make the game work the way you want.

It ups the ranges on turret/mounted weapons 10x. turret/mounted weapon damage is also increased. Including shell shots, missiles, plasma etc. (faster and more range)

Guns can now shoot underwater, no damage increase though.

just copy and past it all into a file called Config.ecf in your \configuration folder.

Fair warning: I dropped in on the moon testing this and the poi's start shooting from 2-3km out so pretty much the whole moon was a live fire zone. Now I can shoot that far too but try aiming at a dot on the horizon to take out a turret, while dodging incoming lead shots, and without a zoom, eek. I had to dodge my way in, just to see what I was shooting at.

Now if you do not like this just change it, that is the point.

https://pastebin.com/FErHX5dU

In addition I put this in the workshop for a short while. It is not a war ship, it is almost literally made of paper. I made it just to clear out ground trash while picking up and dropping off auto-miners. So it is pretty weak, what makes it interesting is, it is an SV and it has a med bay, clone station, and gravity.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2203289268

For me it works fine in the factory but I have an altered game, you will probably have to admin spawn it.

The point is you can change the game to what you want, a lot faster than you convince anyone that it should be changed. All of this is just done with yaml edits, which if you can read a shopping list, you will figure this out.

Edit: lunch break over. enjoy.

[Cajun Rabbit]

İlk olarak Tryst49 tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Cajun Rabbit tarafından gönderildi:

I think Piddlefoot pretty much said it all.

when someone gets shot they fall straight down (think Ragdoll physics)

unless they are still alive, then you know there's the whole "omg i got shot" and scrambling and such.

edit: The reason the human body doesn't blow back, is because we are a large sack of watery bones... we have a lot of Wiggle to us, wiggle negates force quite well, and objects at rest want to stay at rest.

I did mention that it would simply penetrate and go through a body without much kinetic impact. The kinetic impact I was talking about it when you get hit by a round wearing armor and it doesn't penetrate the armor. ALL of the kinetic energy is transferred to the armor. Even if it didn't knock you on your butt, it's definitely going to visibly knock you back.

Like I said, it would be worse than being hit in the chest with a sledgehammer, the sledgehammer won't penetrate but the kinetic force transferred to the body is definitely going to knock you back.

Anyone who's worn a bullet proof vest would know that, even with trauma plates, even a fairly low velocity 9mm bullet leaves one hell of a bruise. I have seen the pictures of a guy that has been hit by a 9mm SMG round with kevlar armor and trauma plates. A bruise the size of a football is most definitely the result of some serious kinetic impact and yet, that's a low velocity round that would bounce off a brick wall. Now imagine what a 7.62 high velocity round, that can penetrate a single course brick wall and still kill someone on the other side of it, could do. I'd hate to be on the receiving end of that even with a bullet proof vest.

no even in Level IV armor, if shot with a .50 cal Barret sniper rifle at optimal distance... the armor would keep the bullet from penetrating, you would probably fall from the Sound/scare factor

but the kinetic force of the bullet would be absorbed by your body and it would NOT blow you off your feet, or even back.

All of the kinetic energy of a bullet is also NOT transferred upon impact because, the bullet explodes when it hits a target it cant penetrate, the round will shatter into a bunch of tiny pieces that go in all directions away from the plate. (the plate carrier usually stops a lot of these pieces on lower caliber rounds) thus you are only getting a fraction of the full force.


there is NO round that would "blow you back" without destroying the body even with armor

once you move into the 20mm and larger sized rounds it would just kill you even with armor because of the blunt force trauma of the impact (until they can create an armor that creates a shell around the user and absorbs the force)


but.....

if we don't care about lethality, then yes, if a person was to hold up a 45mm piece of tank armor over his chest and get shot with a cannon, it would blow him back.

but at that point we are getting a tad ridiculous no?

[piddlefoot]

There are some body armour suits that will stop a 50 Cal, but man talk about perforate your organs......
1:45 in video, 50 Cal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsF8MLL-dns

Now consider that for an auto on a US chopper, dozens of bullets in seconds.
Mince.
No body armour will stop that or save you.
There's really no way to survive a . 50-cal. direct hit ... 50-cal. hits with so much energy that it would likely kill you even if your body armour could or does stop it.

Energy of 50 Cal is huge.

I dunno why this even needs explaining, sure a small cal, bouncy, and back goes the dude, but you know none of that was part of the first example, in science you have to be clear about what you mean or when you change your story half way through a debate, its looks bad for credibility.

Seriously why dont you utube some of this ?

25 seconds in, 50 Cal v concrete........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHOs3NvMoI0

A 5.56mm NATO round vs a . 50-cal. ... 5.56mm great for flying long ranges and punching through the skin of a vehicle, but it can cause the bullet to punch right through human flesh without depositing much kinetic energy, meaning that it only damages the flesh directly in the path of the round.

Hollow points, are a whole different beast.....But in war they are for the most solid jackets, UN conventions I dunno !

The . 50 BMG round can produce between 10,000 and 15,000 foot-pounds force (14,000 and 20,000 J), depending on its powder and bullet type, and as well as the weapon it is fired from.

One joule is defined as the amount of energy exerted when a force of one newton is applied over a displacement of one meter. One joule is the equivalent of one watt of power radiated or dissipated for one second. In some applications, the British thermal unit (Btu) is used to express energy.

Greater than 10 Joules is considered hazardous. Greater than 50 Joules is a lethal level.

50 Cal = 14,000 to 20,000 Joules.......Im going with scientifically lethal !

[ChumSickle]

A slight point...the 5.56 was designed to tumble upon impact when at its optimal speed. This yawing causes massive tissue damage. If the round has lost too much velocity this can be impacted. It was not designed to just drill a straight hole.

Rifle rounds in general carry enough velocity to create wound characteristics because of the kinetic forces being applied destroying tissue due to a "shockwave" of sorts it imparts. Despite a wound looking clean, there is a permanent cavity where tissue is stretched and torn around the wound.

Pistol caliber ammunition, by and large, do not have the velocity to impart this permanent wound cavity and for the most part do just poke holes in people. The advent of hollow points increase the surface area of the wound cavity. In large part the original hollow point self defense ammunition was designed more to prevent projectiles from passing through targets. Which was important to law enforcement in particular who would often have to use their firearms in populated areas.

I personally know people who served overseas and took rifle rounds from small arms to their armor. It knocked them on their tails. Pistol calibers would probably not have a similar outcome. I have an extremely hard time believing that anyone could take a .50 to a plate and not have massive internal damage at best.

[piddlefoot]

The 5.56 was never designed to tumble before reaching it's target. It didn't ever tumble before reaching the target. It can tumble after it hits the target but all bullets can. Some say the 5.56 was designed to tumble on impact but it's actually designed to fragment on impact if you're talking military bullets.
Its designed to spin or rotate during flight to teh target.

That should be obvious.


But the game, the reason they are so weak is simply put, game balance.

A 50 Cal would wreck you pretty fast and MP would become first to hit wins !

[ChumSickle]

İlk olarak piddlefoot tarafından gönderildi:

The 5.56 was never designed to tumble before reaching it's target. It didn't ever tumble before reaching the target. It can tumble after it hits the target but all bullets can. Some say the 5.56 was designed to tumble on impact but it's actually designed to fragment on impact if you're talking military bullets.
Its designed to spin or rotate during flight to teh target.

That should be obvious.


But the game, the reason they are so weak is simply put, game balance.

A 50 Cal would wreck you pretty fast and MP would become first to hit wins !

I never said it was designed to tumble before it reaches the target. I expressly said that. Spitzer shaped bullets do this. And you are correct, it was designed with a weakpoint to encourage it to break apart. Point being, they were designed not to just "bore a clean hole through".

[piddlefoot]

So you did, my brain did not see that bit, I apologise.

[ChumSickle]

İlk olarak piddlefoot tarafından gönderildi:

So you did, my brain did not see that bit, I apologise.

Cheers bro, and happy shooting!

[piddlefoot]

Those days are gone for me, all I shoot now are Gel Blasters, hehehe, used to be into guns and pistols when I was a youngling, nowdays Im more into flying RC and stuff like that.

I have my own engineering shed out back, welders, lathe , milling machine etc all the fun toys to make just about anything, just about to add a 3d printer also, yay, but anyway Ive been considering my next hobby project, and was thinking about building a full alloy US aircraft carrier, a 2 year project roughly, so I can also scale to it, RC jets, very small ones and RC choppers, so I did a little math on this, to scale it, LOL, need to build a car trailer first to house it and move it, hahaha, but Im still considering it, cos epic hobbies ROCK , and maybe it should have a Tesla coil in it ! hahaha

What do you think, am I just loopy ?

The partner thinks, yep loopy !

But imagine what that thing would be worth to a US hobby enthusiast guy, with lots of cash !

The real trick is all the small bits, scale in alloy, getting a 3d set of pics from my Enterprice model should be easy enough, mill most of the little bits from alloy block, and just stick em on, maybe with little guide pins , the miller can do awesome stuff, but I dunno yet, its a complex beast that 1m model made by Tamia.

Need some RC F22 Raptors and F35's !

How to make catapult ! hahaha

Maybe a sling shot, mechanical one.

Kinda hobby that will keep you busy for, literally years !

[Sprocket66]

Loopy but fun. Used to dabble with RC then kids came along. Wife says no more hobbies til they move out. Home school/lockdown doesn't help. At least I still have Empyrion (and a couple of others) when the wife ain't watchin.

[ChumSickle]

I have a rather respectable firearm collection...and before 4 kids would shoot 2 and 3 gun matches pretty regularly. Its an expensive enough hobby during good times, but ammo prices and availability has gone nuts.

On the bright side...if I sold it all, I could nearly pay off the kids college tuition.

[piddlefoot]

My kids are in the teens now so, yea thats always fun , but Im semi retired so get a bit of extra free time.
You cant get any firearms in Australia cheap at all, the strict gun laws, means there are very few shops that deal in firearms so the demand is not as high and the cost of importing them is much higher, and now Mr T has slapped an export tax on them, almost everything coming from the US since the Trade war he started has been extra taxed.
So weapons, very expensive.
Harley's, very expensive.
Jeeps, very expensive.
No chance of long term competitiveness with other car importers, sooner or later we are going to loose our US dealers in car yards here if it does not change soon.
He is literally making it harder for people to buy US goods, whats with that anyway, I thought the idea of a trade war was to effect our foes, not our friends !

So imagine a 3 thousand US dollar 222.50 or something average like that, fox shooting weapon, lol, over here, thats closer to 7 to 8 thousand AUD.

Yikes !

[ChumSickle]

Not doin the politics thing. But sorry buying firearms is too expensive.

[The Last Starfighter]

İlk olarak Cajun Rabbit tarafından gönderildi:

This is something that has always bugged me.


For reference.. A .50 cal bullet is 12.7mm

So a 15mm round is larger and thus more powerful

A 30mm round is a smaller sized tank round


Why does my base turret, a 30mm cannon, require multiple shots on a humanoid creature to kill it?

Why does it do pathetic damage to troop transport ships?


It's very irritating to have two 30mm cannons on an outpost NOT be able to take down a single troop transport

I agree, but 30mm is far from a tank round. For comparison, US fighter jets and US Navy sea whiz CIWS shoot 20mm rounds, the AH-64 Apache and A-10 Thunderbolt II shoot 30mm rounds, and the M1A1 Abrams main battle tank shots 120mm rounds.