Tovera-class Dreadnought - WTAF

[cailean_556]

This is kind of a rant but also an observation and suggestion.

I'm doing a playthrough of the main story. I have CPU, block and mass limits enabled. That's how I like to have fun. I'm also not doing anything the game's dialogue doesn't suggest - so my original CV was still in service. It's not a battleship, it's at most a light gunship - 4 miniguns and 4 sentry guns. No shields and only a steel hull. It's designed to land on planets and act as a small base camp for mining and the like, it's FTL capable and can carry a HV or SV in a single hangar. That's it.

Generally, when I've played Empyrion in the past, as soon as I can jump to other stars I generally ditch the story and just explore (avoiding any claimed territory in the process unless I'm friendly with them) so this playthrough is a bit different and I'm playing dumb somewhat on purpose - to see if the story actually guides and encourages the player down a path of upgrading to bigger, better ships (keeping in mind I have CPU, block and mass enabled) or if the game hopes they'll just do it themselves - becuase while I'd never come across a Tovera myself before, I know they exist. I just never realised *how* powerful they are...

Anyway, long story short I came across a Tovera-class dreadnought. The ship I was in at the time (which was not the ship described earlier, I had been ambushed by a Sunat earlier and that ship crashed on a high G world and would never fly again) didn't stand a chance. Shields weren't on, weapons weren't on. I thought the area was clear as there were no moving contacts in range...apparently I missed them or they spawned in. Unsure. Anyway...

To face the Tovera and get revenge (in vanilla, with CPU, block and mass limits) I spawn in my most powerful ship design. It has significant frontal firepower and while I wasn't completely confident I'd destroy it, I did expect my ship would definitely put some holes in it. However no one seems to have told the Tovera that. The fight was very one sided to the point where wasn't even fun getting my ass handed to me. By the time I had its shield to 30%, my T2 shields were gone and I had quite a number of very large holes in my combat steel hull. I was killed shortly after because it shot my cockpit.

How on earth is a single player, with CPU, block and mass limits enabled, supposed to compete against a ship that COMPLETELY DISREGARDS THOSE SAME LIMITS and has essentially twice the firepower and no real blind spots? What. The. Actual. F*#&? Nothing I, as the player, can build will ever match the firepower of a Tovera with limits turned on.

Why is a ship that doesn't comply with the limits to begin with even allowed to spawn under such conditions? Why even have limits at all if the NPC ships don't comply with those same limits? Or must I now wrap my ships in five layers of combat steel so they can hopefully withstand more than a couple salvos when I'm just wanting to explore and immerse myself in the story of Empyrion? That's fun for me. Coming across a ship that I can't beat, even on my best day in my best ship...not so much.

Recommendations:

1. Alter mission dialogue to periodically encourage players to build bigger, more powerful ships (like I said, I was playing dumb on purpose - the game so far seems to assume your ship and equipment are as powerful as they can be). There's no "Before you set off for this star system, consider upgrading your ships weapons and armour" or something like that. Closest I've come across was "I'm going to need more ammo" or words to that effect.

2. If a player has certain limits enabled, especially block limits, than ships that very obviously don't comply with those limits shouldn't be able to spawn. The Tovera has 90-something turrets and two shield generators. The player can have a max of 40 or so turrets and a grand total of one shield generator... How is the Tovera even fair against a single player?

3. If the Tovera absolutely has to be in, then players that adhere to the CPU, block and mass limits must be given tools to combat something as seriously overpowered as a Tovera. Whether that be through 'Epic' CV weapons and better/more shields via the Explorer's Guild or AI controlled escort ships (the latter would be fun, adding a bit of fleet management to the game while also making it so a lone ship vs a Tovera is suicide, a fleet against a Tovera...you at least have a chance).

[Es'carli]

NPC ships need an advantage over players because quite simply if they adhered to the same limits as player ships then there wouldn't be any challenge whatsoever. I could try and put it so many different wants but for me that's basically the issue. It's not limited to ships either, npcs of any kind in any game quite often need an advantage over players, it's quite common.

Ever been in a game where the AI has better research capabilities or resource gathering? I certainly have and many of them, it's the same principle.

In terms of block limits, I believe the official servers play with block limits and players have and do take out the Tovera. There's even a single unique spawn which is an admin core variant in a single playfield in a system if they want an extra challenge and they have been able to take that out as well.

Chalk it down to experience, and plan your righteous revenge on the Zirax :)

Edit: Forgot to mention, the Tovera is not the ship with the most turrets.

[Too lazy to choose a name]

Servers means multi players, multi players means guild, raid teamwork and drama.....
But, in vanilla single player game,
I defeated that ship with block limit, but I used about 4~6 hours to test and fight,
and load game once, and I used some.... bug ? or game setting ?

(1)Your CV should be faster than NPC's CV
(2)NPC's CV won't repair itself.
(3).....

[TECHNOMANCER]

Because, for 90%+ of Unity DEVs
[EDIT] (and to be fair, 60+ of ALL DEVs) [/edit],
AI = cheat the stats like mad, instead of any programming skills.
This team is no different.

[HurtfulPlayer97]

If you are using CPU then turn Block Limits OFF. CPU is all the limit you need. Block limits was just a stopgap until the Devs could come up with a better system.

[Es'carli]

Ignore him :)

It's simply a learning curve on how to fight them and how to build a ship capable of defeating the npc ships like that. Think of it as a challenge to overcome and the satisfaction you'll get when you finally defeat it :)

[HurtfulPlayer97]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2788790233

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2664591510

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2833870673

[Too lazy to choose a name]

(1)There are very few Tovera-class Dreadnought in my game,
I can always avoid it. (or them ?)

(2)In vanilla single player game, you can still defeat Tovera-class Dreadnought with block limit.
Hit and run :
Dodge its laser and plasma, find a decent attack angle(?),
Use pulse lasers and laser turrets to decrease its shield to 0%,
Use missile turrets to damage its turret,
Run before your shield become 0%,
Fly away, leave Tovera-class Dreadnought along.
Attack again when your shield recover to 100%.
Loop.
By the way, there are some bug(?)/setting(?) you can use.

(3)But, in a vanilla single player game, when the block limit turned on,
If I use advanced core on one of my CV,
will the advanced core remove the block limit of that CV ?

[cailean_556]

Originally posted by Es'carli:

NPC ships need an advantage over players because quite simply if they adhered to the same limits as player ships then there wouldn't be any challenge whatsoever. I could try and put it so many different wants but for me that's basically the issue. It's not limited to ships either, npcs of any kind in any game quite often need an advantage over players, it's quite common.

Ever been in a game where the AI has better research capabilities or resource gathering? I certainly have and many of them, it's the same principle.

In terms of block limits, I believe the official servers play with block limits and players have and do take out the Tovera. There's even a single unique spawn which is an admin core variant in a single playfield in a system if they want an extra challenge and they have been able to take that out as well.

Chalk it down to experience, and plan your righteous revenge on the Zirax :)

Edit: Forgot to mention, the Tovera is not the ship with the most turrets.

I've watched a video on that before posting here. His ship is practically purpose designed specifically for engaging that ship. However, while it may be practical, its design is not aesthetically pleasing - certainly not something I want to be flying around in single player on the off chance I come across this monstrosity again.

On a multiplayer server, I get it. But I'm not playing on a server, I'm playing Single Player.

I'm okay with a powerful enemy. I'm okay with losing ships that weren't designed for ship-to-ship combat. I'm not okay with being forced to design a ship that is essentially a flying brick with forward facing weapons and multiple layers of heavy frontal armour because the AI can do things the player cannot and the only (vanilla) way a player can counter that is by doing a singular thing (i.e. armoured death brick).

At least in Stellaris or Sins of a Solar Empire, when the AI is 'cheating' (as they do get bonuses humans don't get access to - like you explained), the player can develop a counter within their play style, or at the very least get allies to help face off against a stronger foe. And if the Tovera isn't the ship with the most turrets, that's just even more ridiculous.

The AI could have been given longer ranged, more powerful weapons that adhered to block/CPU/mass limits. The AI still has a range and firepower advantage, it's up to the player to fill in the rest.

I guess I'll have to disable the block limits. I can't out-shield it, I don't want to fly a brick and/or layer armour so thick I need to redesign the ship to use XL engines so it can at least move, so I'm going to have to try and outgun it.

[cailean_556]

Originally posted by HurtfulPlayer97:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2788790233

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2664591510

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2833870673

Appreciate the links, but they're all Reforged Eden. I'm playing vanilla Single Player. I will get around to RE at some point though.

[japp_02]

"Light gunship....miniguns...sentry guns"
That's enough for me to take a laugh, sorry for my honesty. You need stronger than that. And sentry guns are not to batlle any other ship, it's against protection from enemy NPCs or predators, at the limit against some drones.
Before you engage the biggest threat in this game you need to do your homework first consisting in knowing the weapons you can have.

[cailean_556]

Originally posted by japp_02:

"Light gunship....miniguns"
That's enough for me to take a laugh, sorry for my honesty. You need stronger than that.

Go back and read the post again. Properly this time.

[cailean_556]

Originally posted by HurtfulPlayer97:

If you are using CPU then turn Block Limits OFF. CPU is all the limit you need. Block limits was just a stopgap until the Devs could come up with a better system.

Looks like that might be the only way to avoid building a flying brick with guns on...

[japp_02]

Originally posted by cailean_556:

Originally posted by japp_02:

"Light gunship....miniguns"
That's enough for me to take a laugh, sorry for my honesty. You need stronger than that.

Go back and read the post again. Properly this time.

Sorry I was not finished posting, before complaining read my whole answer, I don't think I can take OP seriously if facing a Dreadnought with such a setup.

[Too lazy to choose a name]

Originally posted by cailean_556:

Looks like that might be the only way to avoid building a flying brick with guns on...

What does "flying brick" mean ?
A slow and heavy vessel ? Or a flying box ?
If you mean a slow and heavy vessel, maybe you don't know how strong the XL thruster is. (in vanilla game.)

For example :
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2667369109&searchtext=Endurance

[ChumSickle]

The Tovera is supposed to be a beast. Fighting one is >supposed< to be a difficult task. You cant just rush it and pray it all works out. You have to use weapons for specific tasks. outfit with plenty of energy weapons to knock its shields down. If you notice yours dropping faster than its, then you arent ready. Once its shields are down, target its weapon systems. Chip away at it. You can regen/repair, it cant. Every turret you knock out is one less hitting back.

And move. You dont have to go all whirly bird in some plastic fantastic ship, but you cant stay still. Make its turrets move, track, and readjust.