Does anyone feel like the on-foot player should be able to sneak and use stealth?

[Midas]

For kicks I decided to try and assault a zirax base on foot as a sniper. In concept it makes sense: dense jungle area, lots of cover, snipe out the sentries, sneak in close, and infiltrate the base and/or take out the turrets with demo packs.

In practice, it's awful to the point of uselessness. Enemies can spot you from as far away as they can shoot you - and shoot you they do, with pin-prick accuracy from the hip. The second any of the turrets on the base can draw a bead on you they do, and you're probably dead, even if you couldn't even see the turret through the trees and foliage. Even tunneling underground, they're aware of you, even if they can't draw LoS to you, they all know you're there.

Given how limited the durability and firepower of the player is compared to the many vehicles that can be made, does anyone else feel like stealth should be a tool you can exploit when on foot? Maybe some kind of stealth field mod that makes you harder to detect or something?

[KiflicaX]

I think that Stealth implementation in this game is not an option since it would mean re-doing AI and other stuff. And with the dev team size i don't think they are gonna do it anytime soon since stealth in this game doesn't makes a lot of sense to begin with. Only thing i can suggest on this topic is to implement some sort of cloaking device with limited working time which has to be recarged for all of you guys that want stealth,but even then they would have to rework ai.

[Midas]

Originally posted by KiflicaX:

I think that Stealth implementation in this game is not an option since it would mean re-doing AI and other stuff. And with the dev team size i don't think they are gonna do it anytime soon since stealth in this game doesn't makes a lot of sense to begin with. Only thing i can suggest on this topic is to implement some sort of cloaking device with limited working time which has to be recarged for all of you guys that want stealth,but even then they would have to rework ai.

I don't think it would be that much reworking. The AI already covers detection. You can sneak up on the AI now if you can get behind them without them seeing you, and they won't respond to you until you shoot, hurt them, or they see you. They even seem to have a max sight range to spot you, since I've been able to look them in the eyes through my scope and outside of maybe 50m they don't seem to notice you.

So all the detection logic is in there, all stealth needs to do is reduce the range they notice you at.

edit: actually, on the note of stealth and shooting, another thing that would be really good would be if the pistols were silenced. Currently there's absolutely no advantage to using a pistol. It is the worst weapon on foot bar none and even from the moment you can first make one, you can make a shotgun anyways, which is drastically better. If pistols were silenced, they'd actually have a niche.

[KiflicaX]

Yes, of course the detection is there, but we are not talking about that. We are talking about scripting certain behaviours for AI to react to different situations which comes down to a lot of time spent on working for thing that really is not for this game.This game is not set in 2100 year Cyber New York, its on the open spaces most of the time in far future so of course stealth doesn't really makes a lot of sense. Because the detectors in game which you as a player use to detect other Bases and ores...what makes you think NPCs wouldn't have the same tehnology as you to detect you? But.... on the other hand i would like to have stealthier options when im in alien base or on the enemy territory when im on foot trying to kill that Zirex soldiers without them noscoping me with 100% aimbot.

[Midas]

Originally posted by KiflicaX:

Yes, of course the detection is there, but we are not talking about that. We are talking about scripting certain behaviours for AI to react to different situations which comes down to a lot of time spent on working for thing that really is not for this game.This game is not set in 2100 year Cyber New York, its on the open spaces most of the time in far future so of course stealth doesn't really makes a lot of sense. Because the detectors in game which you as a player use to detect other Bases and ores...what makes you think NPCs wouldn't have the same tehnology as you to detect you? But.... on the other hand i would like to have stealthier options when im in alien base or on the enemy territory when im on foot trying to kill that Zirex soldiers without them noscoping me with 100% aimbot.

Because you don't have the technology to detect them either? Why assume that's even a thing?

And how are we not talking about detection? What additional AI behavior is needed?

As for the logic behind it, I already pointed out there are lots of tech ways to handle stealth even in the future with advanced scanning/detection equipment. For every scanner, there is a jammer, for every wavelength, there is a way to trap, redirect, or muddle that wavelength. If the technology exists to spot something, then the same kinds of technology can be used to hide something.

[VulcanTourist]

Originally posted by KiflicaX:

...what makes you think NPCs wouldn't have the same tehnology as you to detect you?

The last time I checked, raptors and spiders weren't wearing any headgear. Did they add that in Alpha 12, along with a giant boost to braincase capacity?

[KiflicaX]

Originally posted by VulcanTourist:

Originally posted by KiflicaX:

...what makes you think NPCs wouldn't have the same tehnology as you to detect you?

The last time I checked, raptors and spiders weren't wearing any headgear. Did they add that in Alpha 12, along with a giant boost to braincase capacity?

we are not talking about animals here, and that annoying monsters in alien bases actually do carry scaners on their heads since they can detect me from 2 floors down below me.

[KiflicaX]

About the AI, Detection is nothing compared to everything else you need to script it.
If player is detected>Alert and destroy. Ok what if i hide behind the rock or a tree? Well ♥♥♥♥ they can shoot trough the rock since they can see me somehow so i have to rework that part of the script. Ok, If player is detected and then Goes into hiding(after fixing the assets and script),should they program it scan the area or make turret wait for you until you come out? So, The AI for detecting needs to be able to, Recognize,observe, and react which comes to a lot of scripting and testing and fixing which takes a lot of time. The only thing they could do on the current build (and we can both agree) is to implement some sort of Jammer or Camouflage which has limited working time so that we can Stealthy get into the base and destroy turrets or other things.

[Jack_Spade]

Originally posted by KiflicaX:

About the AI, Detection is nothing compared to everything else you need to script it.
If player is detected>Alert and destroy. Ok what if i hide behind the rock or a tree? Well ♥♥♥♥ they can shoot trough the rock since they can see me somehow so i have to rework that part of the script. Ok, If player is detected and then Goes into hiding(after fixing the assets and script),should they program it scan the area or make turret wait for you until you come out? So, The AI for detecting needs to be able to, Recognize,observe, and react which comes to a lot of scripting and testing and fixing which takes a lot of time. The only thing they could do on the current build (and we can both agree) is to implement some sort of Jammer or Camouflage which has limited working time so that we can Stealthy get into the base and destroy turrets or other things.

Given that it's not primarily a stealth game, something quick and dirty would suffice. Draw a line from the sentry to the player. If something's in the way, the player is considered hidden. Program behavior from there. It's not ideal, but this looks like an already-CPU-intensive game.

[Midas]

Originally posted by KiflicaX:

About the AI, Detection is nothing compared to everything else you need to script it.
If player is detected>Alert and destroy. Ok what if i hide behind the rock or a tree? Well ♥♥♥♥ they can shoot trough the rock since they can see me somehow so i have to rework that part of the script. Ok, If player is detected and then Goes into hiding(after fixing the assets and script),should they program it scan the area or make turret wait for you until you come out? So, The AI for detecting needs to be able to, Recognize,observe, and react which comes to a lot of scripting and testing and fixing which takes a lot of time. The only thing they could do on the current build (and we can both agree) is to implement some sort of Jammer or Camouflage which has limited working time so that we can Stealthy get into the base and destroy turrets or other things.

Literally all of those scenarios are already in the game as part of the detection system.

If you're behind a rock or tree but they know you're there, they move towards where you're hiding to try and find you.

If you go into hiding, after a certain distance (and time? not 100% sure) they lose aggro and go back to how they were behaving before they spotted you.

And no, stealth can be as simple as an armor booster that reduces reduces the effective range enemies can spot you at by 10% or something.

[KiflicaX]

Originally posted by Midas:

Originally posted by KiflicaX:

About the AI, Detection is nothing compared to everything else you need to script it.
If player is detected>Alert and destroy. Ok what if i hide behind the rock or a tree? Well ♥♥♥♥ they can shoot trough the rock since they can see me somehow so i have to rework that part of the script. Ok, If player is detected and then Goes into hiding(after fixing the assets and script),should they program it scan the area or make turret wait for you until you come out? So, The AI for detecting needs to be able to, Recognize,observe, and react which comes to a lot of scripting and testing and fixing which takes a lot of time. The only thing they could do on the current build (and we can both agree) is to implement some sort of Jammer or Camouflage which has limited working time so that we can Stealthy get into the base and destroy turrets or other things.

Literally all of those scenarios are already in the game as part of the detection system.

If you're behind a rock or tree but they know you're there, they move towards where you're hiding to try and find you.

If you go into hiding, after a certain distance (and time? not 100% sure) they lose aggro and go back to how they were behaving before they spotted you.

And no, stealth can be as simple as an armor booster that reduces reduces the effective range enemies can spot you at by 10% or something.

No, those scenarious are not in the game because current Ai does this:

I player get in range(300m lets say) shoot him on sight(which is why they track you under the tunnel and shoot you behind rocks and trees)
IF
Player goes under ground> stop shooting but keep tracking
IF
Player leaves the range stop tracking.
These are AI behaviours in the current Build and what you are suggesting would put A lot lot more IFs. Thats why i said,and you said as well that they could just implement Jammer in the game because it would not take any scripting for that behaviour. for example;
IF
Player enters the Range but has a Jamer Then, Keep tracking but dont shoot.
And that would be so much faster to program than redoing the AI and Assets(rocks and trees) for stealth.

[Mr Windblade]

Originally posted by KiflicaX:

Originally posted by Midas:

Literally all of those scenarios are already in the game as part of the detection system.

If you're behind a rock or tree but they know you're there, they move towards where you're hiding to try and find you.

If you go into hiding, after a certain distance (and time? not 100% sure) they lose aggro and go back to how they were behaving before they spotted you.

And no, stealth can be as simple as an armor booster that reduces reduces the effective range enemies can spot you at by 10% or something.

No, those scenarious are not in the game because current Ai does this:

I player get in range(300m lets say) shoot him on sight(which is why they track you under the tunnel and shoot you behind rocks and trees)
IF
Player goes under ground> stop shooting but keep tracking
IF
Player leaves the range stop tracking.
These are AI behaviours in the current Build and what you are suggesting would put A lot lot more IFs. Thats why i said,and you said as well that they could just implement Jammer in the game because it would not take any scripting for that behaviour. for example;
IF
Player enters the Range but has a Jamer Then, Keep tracking but dont shoot.
And that would be so much faster to program than redoing the AI and Assets(rocks and trees) for stealth.

These guys were able to program a procedurally generated universe, but you're claiming it's just too hard to make a stealth system.

I refer you to Metal Gear for the MSX - which had a basic stealth system in the 80s.

The "it can't be done" argument is terrible, and you should feel bad for trying to use it.

[Midas]

Originally posted by KiflicaX:

Originally posted by Midas:

Literally all of those scenarios are already in the game as part of the detection system.

If you're behind a rock or tree but they know you're there, they move towards where you're hiding to try and find you.

If you go into hiding, after a certain distance (and time? not 100% sure) they lose aggro and go back to how they were behaving before they spotted you.

And no, stealth can be as simple as an armor booster that reduces reduces the effective range enemies can spot you at by 10% or something.

No, those scenarious are not in the game because current Ai does this:

I player get in range(300m lets say) shoot him on sight(which is why they track you under the tunnel and shoot you behind rocks and trees)
IF
Player goes under ground> stop shooting but keep tracking
IF
Player leaves the range stop tracking.
These are AI behaviours in the current Build and what you are suggesting would put A lot lot more IFs. Thats why i said,and you said as well that they could just implement Jammer in the game because it would not take any scripting for that behaviour. for example;
IF
Player enters the Range but has a Jamer Then, Keep tracking but dont shoot.
And that would be so much faster to program than redoing the AI and Assets(rocks and trees) for stealth.

I think you need to actually play the game and try these things out. I'm reporting exactly what the AI was doing when I thought about making this topic in the first place. I spent about 2 hours hunting Zirax mooks through the jungle, and I've played cat-&-mouse with them since alpha 6 inside bases.

They don't detect you unless they see you, or they take damage, or you shoot your weapon. Their visual range is too long to justify much sneaking, but it is shorter range than a long-range weapon like a sniper rifle, which is why they can be looking right at you and you can still shoot them before they detect you.

The reason they can spot you under ground is because drilling is still firing a weapon, so they 'hear' you, but they can't draw line of sight to you, so they start pathing around to try and get to where the sound came from. They do the same thing if you duck behind cover and out of line of sight. They'll stay in 'combat mode' for a little while, then if they don't see you, they'll go out of combat mode and start pathing to your last known location.

All of this behavior is already in the game, there's just no way to reduce your chance of being spotted via sneaking/stealth technology/etc.

[KiflicaX]

Im not saying that it cannot be done,im saying it will take time to do that.And about the behaviours of AI. Yes,the Ai does the things you mentioned but they are buggy as hell since i got killed behind a tree without alerting them on 1.11 build but then again, It could be just a that The AI after some distance cant recognize that there are objects behind some range which happened in arma 2 dayz and thats why everyone was playing on low settings so see people in forest on long distances and shoot them. But then again all im saying is that its NOT impossible and i WOULDN'T mind having stealth options for ealy start game so can we leave it at that?

[Midas]

Sure, but I don't think it's nearly as hard as you're making it sound like. Whether or not it's buggy is another matter (EVERYTHING is buggy in this game), but the base functionality of stealth vs detection shouldn't need to be a dramatic overhaul to get the basics of stealth gameplay into the game.

[Lerch Addams]

Originally posted by VulcanTourist:

Originally posted by Lerch Addams:

Also makes me want to start a new game in Skyrim and level stealth.

I miss my stealthy sniper.

> Sneak up on a sleeping Ancient Dragon with maxed Stealth, Archery and max enchanted Deadric bow.
> Fire first shot from stealth: *BOINK!*
> Watch dragon pop into the air (dead) flying around (still dead) and perform the crash landing animation and finally be really dead.
> Laugh so hard your dog looks at you funny.