(Game-play issue) Water generators are 'hidden' in the tech tree and menus.

[Harmonica]

The water generator (not the water/02 condenser) needed to make water containers isn't unlocked or visible in the tech tree at any point. it's only in the menu of the advanced constructor under the 'all objects' tab... Which isn't used as it seems a reasonable presumption that everything there is also under one of the tabs for base/CV/SV/HV... Players soon learn that using that 'all objects' tab leads to issues making the parts for the wrong class, so it's avoided.

The water generator just appears at some point in that menu but there's no indication that it has been unlocked and nothing to point the player towards looking for it there...

So...

I've completed the entire tech tree, built HV, SV and CV and I still had no idea the water generator existed, I've been using water bottle from water/O2 condensers for everything...

I noticed today (about 100 hours in) that water containers are requested in the pop-up to make hydrogen... Hydrogen is a similar case, the player is only pointed towards it in the pop-up recipe over the a fusion cell. Since I've had plenty of those looted anyway I've had no reason to makes them - until now when I've used up the hoard of energy cells etc. accumulated through the earlier game stages before I built a CV.

I searched menus to craft both water containers and hydrogen after looting a couple earlier in the game but found nothing due to the above issue and presumed they were only found in looting, or a remnant of an earlier game version. When I searched previously on how to make water and read about generators I guessed that meant the Water/02 condenser (I tried putting that in the water). There's a lot of confusion on the forums between these two items because of this issue.

So, small thing but I think there needs to be some kind of pointer in-game towards the water generator - for that first single-player run.

Why not simply make this item unlock-able in to the tech-tree?

[ravien_ff]

I thought it showed up in the tech tree, level 1, already unlocked.

[margalus]

And you don't need the Advanced constructor either, the Large constructor and portable constructor will make them.

[margalus]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1849729165

[Werric]

That's all well and good but I went to both my adv and large constructors and it wasn't there. I looked and also filtered without a result.

[TwitchyJ]

Originally posted by up100:

That's all well and good but I went to both my adv and large constructors and it wasn't there. I looked and also filtered without a result.

You can't use any filters since it's a terrain placeable device and there is no filter for terrain placeables. You have to uncheck all filters to see it and it's right there from the start of the game. It's in with the devices and there is no tech tree unlock for it you just have it from the very beginning.

[Werric]

Sorry to be a pain but I have been back in and looked and looked and the Water/O2 Condenser isn't anywhere in "devices" in my adv constructor. I can find the water generator and would have thought it would be right there. I even went so far as to mouse over every single item in devices but still not a sight of it.

So far I haven't needed it but I guess it's not there for show and I will need it at some time. I'm either blind or my game is bugged I guess.

[HurtfulPlayer97]

The Water/O2 condenser is only built in your Suit Constructor. The Water Generator is a completely different device.

[Werric]

ohhhhh. Thanks for that. I'll check it out as I'm logging into the game as I type. Yep it's right there. Thanks again.

[INDIEKING]

I agree and think it would be easier for people to find it if the food processor could make it as well.

[Zorz]

all tech and buildings have to be in tech tree, because the tech tree is called tech tree to see all tech on the try, even the tech u have from the beginning..

reason: the tech tree is showing which constructor can construct the item, but without this info on the tree u can't know that it exist or where to craft..

and if it is a "terrain placeable device" than yeah, we need a "terrain placeable stuff" icon on the filter list to see all stuff for terrain only too..

[DivineEvil]

I think that we simply need a filter button for the personal/portable items. Since we have such for variable entity types, we also should have one for personal weapons, corresponding ammunition, equipment and placeable devices. There's no logical argument against it, IMHO. Alternatively, we simply need a revamp on the category/filter system, but what the better options might be is debatable.

[Harmonica]

Originally posted by ravien_ff:

I thought it showed up in the tech tree, level 1, already unlocked.

So it does, I missed it there... Thing is, the water generator is NOT craftable with the small constructor. That's where it gets 'lost' in the tech progression, I think. I don't really get the deal with these constructors to be honest, the advanced constructor can't build some things the most basic, small constructor makes yet it can build everything the large constructor makes, I was getting a bit lost with that going on. On my CV I've a small constructor and an advanced constructor... but I don't need a large one... Berr... what's the logic there...?

Originally posted by up100:

Sorry to be a pain but I have been back in and looked and looked and the Water/O2 Condenser isn't anywhere in "devices" in my adv constructor. I can['t] find the water generator and would have thought it would be right there. I even went so far as to mouse over every single item in devices but still not a sight of it.

So far I haven't needed it but I guess it's not there for show and I will need it at some time. I'm either blind or my game is bugged I guess.

...up100 missed the water generator too and was getting it confused with the water condenser as I did... It looks to me that he's pointing to a bigger issue with the water situation in general that seems very confused...

I just played through the first 10 minutes of survival mode and yes, there's the water generator available to build with the mobile constructor, right at the start. ...But what's it there for?

For a new player (who's played a lot of survival games) Empyrion is pretty confusing around the water issue: I was supplied with these tools to produce water (and O2) but the player character doesn't need to drink water and the 'staple diet' of energy bars and steaks I was crafting at the beginning from looting plants and corpses didn't ask for water either. ...So I just had these nice satisfying bottles of what clearly look like drinking water stacking up in my inventory, looking pretty.

Fact is, water in Empyrion is treated as a completely different entity from it's role in reality with a completely different kind of logic to it - yet a (drinking) bottle of water is the one emergency item you get given in the escape pod... It's the primary item provided to introduce the player to looting... But, hold on, you don't need to drink!

Still, food, air, stamina levels and medical issues are treated to fairly 'realistic' mechanics in the game. ...But everyone knows that water is a far more pressing issue in a survival situation than food and the game universe implies the same since a bottle of water is the one thing dropped with you in the emergency escape pod... But it then turns out to be an entirely optional secondary component that's only needed to make some late-game food recipes, nutrient solution to craft a farming plot (but the plants don;t need watering)... and fusion cells. I could play through the whole game without needing to use a drop of water, I think.

...It's all a bit difficult to get your head around when you first play the game.

So, apart from this issue of the water generator getting lost, there's an overriding issue around the way water is dealt with which leads the player into making some obvious assumptions that the game then dismisses, without any reason being given (perhaps the player has a built in urine/sweat processor in the suit...?). ...The way this water generator doesn't sit in any of the filter tabs kind of says it all.

...And then it gets worse when you come across these huge water containers. I looted my first one and thought it was going to lead to a better water supply for farming or something... the icon there shows a tank of water, it's taken straight from a tank commonly used now in industry and agriculture ( https://www.directwatertanks.co.uk/ibc-containers/ibc-containers-new) ...But, no, a several hundred gallon tank of water can be consumed in one go for a 10% stamina recovery or be used as a component to build a nuclear fusion cell...? And I can't get a bottle of water out of the thing... Whaa...?

The whole water situation is very unintuitive and there's clashing lines of logic everywhere. Don't mean to throw this thread off but having made that post... mmm, it is the tip of the iceberg really.

...I'm only writing this as it is an awesome game but this water issue looks like it's got very confused and I'm guessing a lot of the players who've been in with development, including the devs might miss how weird this all looks to a new players since they've grown accustomed to 'the way it is'. It starts the player off, literally, since it's the first item you loot, in a loosing battle to grasp the game logic.

[Werric]

Makes no sense to me that something in your personal survival constructor can't be constructed all other constructors. An item should be available in its' lowest level constructor and all constructors of a higher level. That is actually how I thought it worked until this little hiccup came along. Maybe I haven't noticed other stuff that is like this or maybe this is the only one.

[Harmonica]

Originally posted by up100:

Makes no sense to me that something in your personal survival constructor can't be constructed all other constructors. An item should be available in its' lowest level constructor and all constructors of a higher level. That is actually how I thought it worked until this little hiccup came along. Maybe I haven't noticed other stuff that is like this or maybe this is the only one.

Yep, totally. With the already very complex menu system for transferring goods remotely and all that... it's one thing too many. I've played for a hundred hours and I'm still flipping between the control panel and the container transfer/devices menu every time I do anything and forgetting what I wanted to do originally by the time I find the right menu half the time. It is a grind in that aspect. Needs some stream-lining there, seriously. The tab system too, there's hidden details to it that leave you feeling you;re missing obvious things.... Like these water generators.

I'm thinking now I might have wasted half my play time cutting wood when I could have been mining promethium, making water containers and crafting fusion cells...

[ravien_ff]

Originally posted by up100:

Makes no sense to me that something in your personal survival constructor can't be constructed all other constructors. An item should be available in its' lowest level constructor and all constructors of a higher level. That is actually how I thought it worked until this little hiccup came along. Maybe I haven't noticed other stuff that is like this or maybe this is the only one.

They did it I think because it was getting too complicated for people.

Not that I agree with that. It doesn't make sense to me either. I want to make a configuration file to fix that stuff.