Did Carmack lose his way after Quake 2?

[Danny_G13]

There is absolutely no doubt Quake, Doom then Quake 2 were titans and game-changers for their day - they made a legend out of John Carmack, and he was viewed as having the Midas touch. But Quake 3, while technically still stunning, wasn't noted for having the charm of the earlier three and Doom 3 was basically dull. Again, stunning to look at if not absolutely incredible, but the gameplay wasn't what many Doom fans had hoped for - many argued Quake 3 was like a gigantic Tech 3 demo, and it wasn't hard to feel the same in a way about Doom 3 & Tech 4. Then Rage came along and frankly underwhelmed everyone, even on a technical level and it looked, to me and many others, like Carmack and id had lost their way.

Two years later Carmack was gone, and three years later, after a troubled development, Doom finally gets released - the first major id title without any work from John Carmack.

And, while it's no masterpiece, it looks like a game which is trying to be more like what the point of id and Doom was in the first place - it's more like a proper John Carmack game, from the old days. Without John Carmack!

Which leads me to the question; is this game evidence of id getting back on track and did Carmack's own ambition lead to him peaking at Doom/Quake/Quake 2?

Or do some think this game would have been better/worse with Carmack on board?

[Yorkin]

I'm one of those weirdos that loved Doom 3 and Rage. I also think VR is going to change the world!

So yeah, John Carmack is a-ok in my book.

[Danny_G13]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Per128:

OP, I haven't read all the replies, but it seems you do not understand Carmack's role in development. The "charm" of a game does in no way whatsoever reflect upon the success of his responsibilities.

Who said 'charm' - I'm talking about the whole product, from technical prowess (his responsibility) to visual quality (arguably his too) to design. I concede he didn't design the games but he certainly played a massive role in Doom 3 being a corridor shooter to Doom's original style. And he got Rage badly wrong. Tech 5 was just not good.

This thread accidentally comes across like me slamming him - far from it - huge respect for him. But I think he peaked a long time ago and now while able to give plenty, won't have the impact herein that he once did.

[Danny_G13]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Yorkin:

I'm one of those weirdos that loved Doom 3 and Rage. I also think VR is going to change the world!

So yeah, John Carmack is a-ok in my book.

It's taking its time to have an impact. I know no one interested in the concept.

[Poly_Pusher]

Are you just throwing the name Carmack around? He's a programmer... Pioneered real time graphics on the PC which no one thought was possible at the time and wrote the graphics side of the engines from Wolf all the way through Rage. Pretty much on his own which is scary... Doom 3 as a game is not his "work" as you say. The id tech graphics engine is his work and Doom 3 was a masterpiece in that respect. Search "Doom 3 source code review" that will give you all you need to know about the impact and quality of his work for id's games.

While it sucks he's gone from id, it's not the end of the world and doesn't mean the engine won't still continue to develop. id tech is in many modern games out there. COD is at this point an unrecognizable fork from Id Tech 3 I believe. Prior to the acquisition of id, they sold their engines all over the place and other programmers continued to build on it in different ways.

The man's a genius. Don't blame creative, aesthetic or gameplay decisions on him. He's a programmer.

[Danny_G13]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Poly_Pusher:

Are you just throwing the name Carmack around? He's a programmer... Pioneered real time graphics on the PC which no one thought was possible at the time and wrote the graphics side of the engines from Wolf all the way through Rage. Pretty much on his own which is scary... Doom 3 as a game is not his "work" as you say. The id tech graphics engine is his work and Doom 3 was a masterpiece in that respect. Search "Doom 3 source code review" that will give you all you need to know about the impact and quality of his work for id's games.

While it sucks he's gone from id, it's not the end of the world and doesn't mean the engine won't still continue to develop. id tech is in many modern games out there. COD is at this point an unrecognizable fork from Id Tech 3 I believe. Prior to the acquisition of id, they sold their engines all over the place and other programmers continued to build on it in different ways.

The man's a genius. Don't blame creative, aesthetic or gameplay decisions on him. He's a programmer.

You're defending accusations I've not made. I'm heavily discussing the id tech engines in here as PART of but not the whole issue - and your post, while interesting and well-compiled, does seem to miss that aspect of what I'm saying.

I never denied the technical competetence of games like Quake 3, quite the opposite - but Rage was a mess as he admits himself. And now that Doom (4) has been released without him, with Tech 6 being far better than 5, my question remains valid.

However, I've said my piece, and apart from the odd insulting comment in this thread, it's been a decent conversation. So I'm done with this.

[kotaiviktor117]

People should finally forget the id - Carmack identification. He was an engine programmer for the later games. A game needs a lot of things other than a graphic engine. He hasn't written these games alone. And btw. Rage was an artistic masterpiece. You can't compare your feelings about those early games with nowadays. Those days Quake one was the first real first person shooter! Also at the relase of Quake 2 you could count the fps games on one hand. Those were different times and people didnt have this much experience with hundreds of AAA games. Frankly, you will never have that feeling again, no matter who does what kind of fps game ever again!
Maybe some VR stuff will blow one day everyones mind if some hardware will get standard. And the other fact is your age. It is crucial that those experiences you have (+ nostalgy factor) will never be repeated again, no matter what game arrives.

[Poly_Pusher]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Danny_G13:

You're defending accusations I've not made. I'm heavily discussing the id tech engines in here as PART of but not the whole issue - and your post, while interesting and well-compiled, does seem to miss that aspect of what I'm saying.

I never denied the technical competetence of games like Quake 3, quite the opposite - but Rage was a mess as he admits himself. And now that Doom (4) has been released without him, with Tech 6 being far better than 5, my question remains valid.

However, I've said my piece, and apart from the odd insulting comment in this thread, it's been a decent conversation. So I'm done with this.

Ehhhh. That's not what you said...

"But Quake 3, while technically still stunning, wasn't noted for having the charm of the earlier three and Doom 3 was basically dull."

Which has nothing to do with Carmack's contributions. I think you're changing you're story...

Rage despite it's problems as a game still was impressive technology. Megatexture, while problematic in Rage was ahead of it's time and needed refinement. But that's a different discussion than the one you started...

[or10nsharkfin]

If anything, id lost its way after John Romero left. He was effectively the heart behind the Doom series.

[ThatHomestar]

you guys realize that carmack barely worked on this game right

[kotaiviktor117]

Doom 3 was also great. It was different from previous Doom games, but it was still very well received and people are modding it in large until now.

It was good, yes, but the fact it divides us in this argument shows how the original Doom was better. Anyone who gamed in the early to mid 90s and played Doom, 9 times out of 10 adored it. Doom 3 just didn't have that impact.
-----
Again, can you please transform back yourself to an era where there are almost no computer games at all? Or if yes they are on Lost Vikings 2D graphical level? Doom 1 and even Quake 1 didn't even have competition and also you were a boy who experienced such new way of games compared to playing football or whatever else. Nowadays we easily trash million dollar CoD games which look like CG movies earlier never imagined quality in real time. You will never find a satisfying answer for you why you don't like that much the new games because you ever since absorb all the new games, you grow up and your whole context world has changed big time.

[quakebox]

In my humble opinion all Quake games are fantastic each for what it delivers, the first was a classic when graphics where barley 3D it was software simulated, Quake 2 was an upgrade over 1 with real 3D accelerated graphics.

3 was odd first since I was used to campains, 3 was multiplayer only or with bots, Quake 4 tried to revive the series and it succeeded yet today the game needs another release like Doom 3 BFG edition with updated graphics and resolution support, I think as long as id is owned by ZeniMax don't worry they will find a way to make money with Quake because it's a gold mine this franchise is so successful.

As for Carmack he's working at OCULUS rift now and I don't know if he's contributing to id software but he gave alot and it's time for new guys to continue.

[uberbobo]

All Carmack really did was work on the tech engine. Even with their older games he didn't have a whole lot of input.

[quakebox]

Ursprungligen skrivet av OI CaptainSharkFin:

If anything, id lost its way after John Romero left. He was effectively the heart behind the Doom series.

John Romero still working at his new company Loot Drop http://www.lootdrop.com/about/

[Damien Azreal]

Considering John Carmack is an engineer and not a game developer... no. He did not lose his way.

His focus was always on the technology behind the games first.
The bulk of the game design went to the other people at id, like John Romero and such. Yes, in the early days John did dabble in some minor game design.

And a lot of his tech was written with certain gameplay design ideas in mind. But ultimately he was looking into ways to push game engines further.

It was during the idTech5 design that he stated openly "I'm not a game designer". And he was very proud of that statement.

[Raven Wolfe]

I read the first page and felt like posting "but he was only the programmer, the gameplay for the first couple Doom and Quake games you have to thank people like Romero and McGee for. They aren't even at id now... "

Glad i'm not the only person who knew that.