DOOM
Sirius Aug 31, 2020 @ 12:25pm
Multiplayer grinding
I'm looking to form a group chat of people who want to boost their Echelon ranks without much hassle(but with still quite a bit of time invested). Of course it could also be used to get other achievements. Anyone up for this?
Note: even if off topic discussions happen below the offer is still up.
Note 2: just one more person needed.
Note 3: there is enough people now!
Last edited by Sirius; Sep 1, 2020 @ 7:21pm
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Showing 1-15 of 19 comments
Team Dennings Aug 31, 2020 @ 12:56pm 
I would love to play Doom MP. It is such an underrated MP. There are a lot more people playing Quake Champions though. I have been grinding on that game lately.
Sirius Aug 31, 2020 @ 1:05pm 
The multiplayer would be quite a lot cooler if it had anti cheat, but otherwise I agree. It is quite the interesting multiplayer experience. Also that game(Quake Champions)still has players? A lot of the things I've seen just state its multiplayer as ''dead'', so that's quite surprising to hear.
Team Dennings Aug 31, 2020 @ 1:24pm 
https://steamcharts.com/app/611500
Quake Champions has had a MAJOR increase in players as of late. From what i understand, Saber Interactive washed their hands of the game, and passed it back over to ID Software which is now preparing it for it's final release. ID has been very hands on with it in the past couple of months. There are new weapons being added, as well as two new maps. Tower Of Koth, and the still in development 'Deep Embrace'
Team Dennings Aug 31, 2020 @ 1:28pm 
The biggest problem with QC is the game engine. It uses the Id Tech/Saber3D engine. Had it been developed on the ID Tech 6 like Doom 2016, things would be much better. Custom lobbies, and snap maps especially. It would have been awesome to play the Doom 2016 multiplayer maps in Quake Champions.
Sirius Aug 31, 2020 @ 1:37pm 
Oh wow, that is quite impressive. I thought the game was done for, especially due to the lootboxes thing. I suppose it's good that the game isn't dying, although its playerbase is still not too high for a multiplayer game. Quake CHampions doesn't seem to have a good anti cheat system though which sucks.
Salamand3r- Aug 31, 2020 @ 2:06pm 
Originally posted by DisturbedDreams:
Oh wow, that is quite impressive. I thought the game was done for, especially due to the lootboxes thing. I suppose it's good that the game isn't dying, although its playerbase is still not too high for a multiplayer game. Quake CHampions doesn't seem to have a good anti cheat system though which sucks.

Doom (2016) has zero anticheat - at least in QC they manually ban people.

Fair dues though, when they tried to add anticheat to Doom Eternal, the community went ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and they had to remove it.
Sirius Aug 31, 2020 @ 2:41pm 
Originally posted by Salamand3r-:
Originally posted by DisturbedDreams:
Oh wow, that is quite impressive. I thought the game was done for, especially due to the lootboxes thing. I suppose it's good that the game isn't dying, although its playerbase is still not too high for a multiplayer game. Quake CHampions doesn't seem to have a good anti cheat system though which sucks.

Doom (2016) has zero anticheat - at least in QC they manually ban people.

Fair dues though, when they tried to add anticheat to Doom Eternal, the community went ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and they had to remove it.
Yes, I know that hence my comment about Doom 2016's multiplayer. Good to hear that QC manually bans though, that's still better than literally nothing. Also, the Denuvo fiasco is actually something I forgot. However, Denuvo is just a significant performance killer in general(along with requesting quite a big portion of the PC) regardless if it's multiplayer or not(at least that is what I got from the things I've read), so there was more reason to the outrage than just an anti-cheat being made. I at least hope they hand out manual bans in Doom Eternal or something because a fight against a competent cheater is a fight that you simply cannot win. Then again, maybe it would've been better for them to just make a seperate Doom multiplayer game with anti-cheat instead of having it in the main game, that way not only would the download size be smaller(seriously, why does Doom 2016 take up so much space?) but it'd also remove the grievance of online achievements for singleplayer games(which is something I don't like, either).
And besides, I'm sure there's at least competent anti-cheat software out there. I've heard BattleEye is a great anti-cheat software, why didn't they go with that one?
Salamand3r- Aug 31, 2020 @ 2:45pm 
Originally posted by DisturbedDreams:
Originally posted by Salamand3r-:

Doom (2016) has zero anticheat - at least in QC they manually ban people.

Fair dues though, when they tried to add anticheat to Doom Eternal, the community went ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and they had to remove it.
Yes, I know that hence my comment about Doom 2016's multiplayer. Good to hear that QC manually bans though, that's still better than literally nothing. Also, the Denuvo fiasco is actually something I forgot. However, Denuvo is just a significant performance killer in general(along with requesting quite a big portion of the PC) regardless if it's multiplayer or not(at least that is what I got from the things I've read), so there was more reason to the outrage than just an anti-cheat being made. I at least hope they hand out manual bans in Doom Eternal or something because a fight against a competent cheater is a fight that you simply cannot win. Then again, maybe it would've been better for them to just make a seperate Doom multiplayer game with anti-cheat instead of having it in the main game, that way not only would the download size be smaller(seriously, why does Doom 2016 take up so much space?) but it'd also remove the grievance of online achievements for singleplayer games(which is something I don't like, either).
And besides, I'm sure there's at least competent anti-cheat software out there. I've heard BattleEye is a great anti-cheat software, why didn't they go with that one?

Denuvo is still in Eternal. Only the anticheat portion was removed, and it PROVABLY - since there was no performance change - had zero impact. Just like it doesn't have any measurable in validated testing in almost ANY game.

Doom (2016) also didn't see a change in performance when Denuvo was removed. That whole thing is pure internet fairy tales. Pure reddit-fueled baloney with no verifiable, repeatable data to back it up aside from one or two cases - which both also involved significant patches to the games in question, and aren't useful for comparison either.

The complaint about Denuvo Anti Cheat was that it's kernel-mode. So is BattleEye, so the community would have had the same backlash.

D16 takes up so much space due to the way megatexture works. Believe it or not, most of the assets are recycled for MP, you actually save FAR more space deleting the non-English audio than removing the MP.
Last edited by Salamand3r-; Aug 31, 2020 @ 2:48pm
Sirius Aug 31, 2020 @ 3:34pm 
Originally posted by Salamand3r-:
Originally posted by DisturbedDreams:
Yes, I know that hence my comment about Doom 2016's multiplayer. Good to hear that QC manually bans though, that's still better than literally nothing. Also, the Denuvo fiasco is actually something I forgot. However, Denuvo is just a significant performance killer in general(along with requesting quite a big portion of the PC) regardless if it's multiplayer or not(at least that is what I got from the things I've read), so there was more reason to the outrage than just an anti-cheat being made. I at least hope they hand out manual bans in Doom Eternal or something because a fight against a competent cheater is a fight that you simply cannot win. Then again, maybe it would've been better for them to just make a seperate Doom multiplayer game with anti-cheat instead of having it in the main game, that way not only would the download size be smaller(seriously, why does Doom 2016 take up so much space?) but it'd also remove the grievance of online achievements for singleplayer games(which is something I don't like, either).
And besides, I'm sure there's at least competent anti-cheat software out there. I've heard BattleEye is a great anti-cheat software, why didn't they go with that one?

Denuvo is still in Eternal. Only the anticheat portion was removed, and it PROVABLY - since there was no performance change - had zero impact. Just like it doesn't have any measurable in validated testing in almost ANY game.

Doom (2016) also didn't see a change in performance when Denuvo was removed. That whole thing is pure internet fairy tales. Pure reddit-fueled baloney with no verifiable, repeatable data to back it up aside from one or two cases - which both also involved significant patches to the games in question, and aren't useful for comparison either.

The complaint about Denuvo Anti Cheat was that it's kernel-mode. So is BattleEye, so the community would have had the same backlash.

D16 takes up so much space due to the way megatexture works. Believe it or not, most of the assets are recycled for MP, you actually save FAR more space deleting the non-English audio than removing the MP.
Not sure about the Denuvo thing being a lie, as there are a number of comparison videos and articles outside of Reddit detailing its performance things. I just don't see a reason for someone to push an agenda that far if it doesn't hold any water. Though to be fair, from the comparison video I've watched, the difference most often boils to a couple of frames, and really shouldn't be causing virtual unplayability as a lot of people suggest so there probably is some exaggeration in play. It also differs from game to game. Still DRM shouldn't even really be in games, as at best it slows down pirates and at worst it quite literally impacts legitimate customers. Not to mention Doom Eternal was shipped WITHOUT DRM(I am still amazed) so the point of keeping it is kinda moot. Even if the difference isn't drastic, no DRM is still better in most cases... or at least it's more consumer friendly. Also no idea about Doom Eternal but to Doom 2016's credit, it is excellently optimized so performance even for the lower end isn't a major issue most of the time. I assume Doom Eternal is quite a lot more demanding and/or less optimized(uncertain as to how good ID Tech 7 is) hence why the Denuvo backlash was a lot more apparent.
On the subject of Doom 2016... that is very interesting. However I'm not sure about the latter part as the sound files are apparently 5 GB while the multiplayer maps are 6 GB(at least from what I've *read). While perhaps it isn't as necessary as I thought, it still could've been something to consider making a seperate standalone Doom multiplayer game that could just be built upon as the games progress instead of having a distinct multiplayer for each release.
*source: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1523829035
Salamand3r- Aug 31, 2020 @ 3:47pm 
Originally posted by DisturbedDreams:
Originally posted by Salamand3r-:

Denuvo is still in Eternal. Only the anticheat portion was removed, and it PROVABLY - since there was no performance change - had zero impact. Just like it doesn't have any measurable in validated testing in almost ANY game.

Doom (2016) also didn't see a change in performance when Denuvo was removed. That whole thing is pure internet fairy tales. Pure reddit-fueled baloney with no verifiable, repeatable data to back it up aside from one or two cases - which both also involved significant patches to the games in question, and aren't useful for comparison either.

The complaint about Denuvo Anti Cheat was that it's kernel-mode. So is BattleEye, so the community would have had the same backlash.

D16 takes up so much space due to the way megatexture works. Believe it or not, most of the assets are recycled for MP, you actually save FAR more space deleting the non-English audio than removing the MP.
Not sure about the Denuvo thing being a lie, as there are a number of comparison videos and articles outside of Reddit detailing its performance things. I just don't see a reason for someone to push an agenda that far if it doesn't hold any water. Though to be fair, from the comparison video I've watched, the difference most often boils to a couple of frames, and really shouldn't be causing virtual unplayability as a lot of people suggest so there probably is some exaggeration in play. It also differs from game to game. Still DRM shouldn't even really be in games, as at best it slows down pirates and at worst it quite literally impacts legitimate customers. Not to mention Doom Eternal was shipped WITHOUT DRM(I am still amazed) so the point of keeping it is kinda moot. Even if the difference isn't drastic, no DRM is still better in most cases... or at least it's more consumer friendly. Also no idea about Doom Eternal but to Doom 2016's credit, it is excellently optimized so performance even for the lower end isn't a major issue most of the time. I assume Doom Eternal is quite a lot more demanding and/or less optimized(uncertain as to how good ID Tech 7 is) hence why the Denuvo backlash was a lot more apparent.
On the subject of Doom 2016... that is very interesting. However I'm not sure about the latter part as the sound files are apparently 5 GB while the multiplayer maps are 6 GB(at least from what I've *read). While perhaps it isn't as necessary as I thought, it still could've been something to consider making a seperate standalone Doom multiplayer game that could just be built upon as the games progress instead of having a distinct multiplayer for each release.
*source: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1523829035

That's MP and SnapMap combined.

Back on Denuvo - there are NO comparison videos with verifiable methodology. Most don't even list hardware configurations or driver versions. The only real testing ever done was by Digital Foundry, and they found none of the claims to be true.

Eternal launched accidentally with no DRM on the Bethnet store, sure, but that version ceased to work almost instantly.

Eternal is at once more demanding, but also better optimized. For how much more detail it pushes, it performs far better than D16.

And again, the backlash had NOTHING to do with performance, because since DAC was added later, you could do easy comparisons. It literally had ZERO effect, not even a couple of frames, which anyone and everyone could verify. You could also verify with the accidentally DRM free version - the version with Denuvo performed identically, and then actually better once the first patch hit.

The issue with Denuvo anti cheat - and trust me, I added over a thousand to my Steam postcount when that debacle was occuring - was solely because of a single misinformation post on the Bethesda forums that was pure fearmongering about what kernel mode software is, or more correctly isn't. It was a concerted effort by a handful of bad actors - and I won't speculate as to their motives, but I think we can all take some guesses - to create a panic reaction, and it worked beautifully. The anticheat was removed, and all the same hackers reappeared instantly.

As to who has an interest in making things up about Denuvo performance - pay attention to the sites that originate those stories. The are universally sites that have vested interest in piracy. Torrent new sites, hacker forums, various grey-area subreddits. Yes, it propogates outwards from there, but it ALWAYS ties back to crack groups or affiliates, whereas actual data-driven publications that test it with public methodology always come up with little or no difference.

I do agree to a certain extent on DRM - as a best practice, it should be removed after the launch window, or publishers should commit to removal in certain circumstances (i.e. when a game reaches EOL status and is no longer supported, or the developer goes out of business) so the game can be suitably maintained by the community. But IP holders have an absolute right to protect their IP, and there is nothing wrong with DRM when properly managed.
Sirius Aug 31, 2020 @ 4:13pm 
(

Originally posted by Salamand3r-:
Originally posted by DisturbedDreams:
Not sure about the Denuvo thing being a lie, as there are a number of comparison videos and articles outside of Reddit detailing its performance things. I just don't see a reason for someone to push an agenda that far if it doesn't hold any water. Though to be fair, from the comparison video I've watched, the difference most often boils to a couple of frames, and really shouldn't be causing virtual unplayability as a lot of people suggest so there probably is some exaggeration in play. It also differs from game to game. Still DRM shouldn't even really be in games, as at best it slows down pirates and at worst it quite literally impacts legitimate customers. Not to mention Doom Eternal was shipped WITHOUT DRM(I am still amazed) so the point of keeping it is kinda moot. Even if the difference isn't drastic, no DRM is still better in most cases... or at least it's more consumer friendly. Also no idea about Doom Eternal but to Doom 2016's credit, it is excellently optimized so performance even for the lower end isn't a major issue most of the time. I assume Doom Eternal is quite a lot more demanding and/or less optimized(uncertain as to how good ID Tech 7 is) hence why the Denuvo backlash was a lot more apparent.
On the subject of Doom 2016... that is very interesting. However I'm not sure about the latter part as the sound files are apparently 5 GB while the multiplayer maps are 6 GB(at least from what I've *read). While perhaps it isn't as necessary as I thought, it still could've been something to consider making a seperate standalone Doom multiplayer game that could just be built upon as the games progress instead of having a distinct multiplayer for each release.
*source: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1523829035

That's MP and SnapMap combined.

Back on Denuvo - there are NO comparison videos with verifiable methodology. Most don't even list hardware configurations or driver versions. The only real testing ever done was by Digital Foundry, and they found none of the claims to be true.

Eternal launched accidentally with no DRM on the Bethnet store, sure, but that version ceased to work almost instantly.

Eternal is at once more demanding, but also better optimized. For how much more detail it pushes, it performs far better than D16.

And again, the backlash had NOTHING to do with performance, because since DAC was added later, you could do easy comparisons. It literally had ZERO effect, not even a couple of frames, which anyone and everyone could verify. You could also verify with the accidentally DRM free version - the version with Denuvo performed identically, and then actually better once the first patch hit.

The issue with Denuvo anti cheat - and trust me, I added over a thousand to my Steam postcount when that debacle was occuring - was solely because of a single misinformation post on the Bethesda forums that was pure fearmongering about what kernel mode software is, or more correctly isn't. It was a concerted effort by a handful of bad actors - and I won't speculate as to their motives, but I think we can all take some guesses - to create a panic reaction, and it worked beautifully. The anticheat was removed, and all the same hackers reappeared instantly.

As to who has an interest in making things up about Denuvo performance - pay attention to the sites that originate those stories. The are universally sites that have vested interest in piracy. Torrent new sites, hacker forums, various grey-area subreddits. Yes, it propogates outwards from there, but it ALWAYS ties back to crack groups or affiliates, whereas actual data-driven publications that test it with public methodology always come up with little or no difference.

I do agree to a certain extent on DRM - as a best practice, it should be removed after the launch window, or publishers should commit to removal in certain circumstances (i.e. when a game reaches EOL status and is no longer supported, or the developer goes out of business) so the game can be suitably maintained by the community. But IP holders have an absolute right to protect their IP, and there is nothing wrong with DRM when properly managed.
(Sorry for the bad formatting I just realized I was leaving big walls of text.)

The guide states that the MP maps are about 6 GB, and then the next section talks about SnapMap and it potentially freeing up an additional 5 GB, but also apparently affecting the base game in some way. Unless I misread something, it doesn't seem to MP + Snapmap combined. But honestly this is just unimportant and either way I was expecting Multiplayer to be taking up a whole lot more space than it actually does.

Also yeah that's very fair, I didn't even put those factors into consideration. I've never seen Digital Foundry's video on the matter, but I do know they're a credible source.

Sheesh, I guess the Denuvo drama went a lot deeper than I initially thought. I wonder why Denuvo in particular is being singled out. I guess it's because it is sometimes quite effective? Resident Evil 3 Remake for instance still hasn't been cracked. The other forms of DRM aren't exaclty ''loved'', but I constantly just hear Denuvo's name when DRM comes into play.

In regards to DRM as a practice, I remember reading that DRM is put by developers in order to at least just slightly slow down pirates as the game sells most of the copies in its lifespan in the first week or so of release, which is also the reason why it's sometimes voluntarily removed afterwards. While I don't think DRM is good, I don't think it has to necessarily be bad, either. When DRM is handled poorly, it is very harmful... for the people that legitimately acquire the game. Gears of War once had a DRM that locked legitimate users out of the game after a while, which is just frankly unacceptable. Use DRMs if you wish, but at least make sure they work properly. They're not the end of the world, but it'd probably be at least slightly better without them.

Last edited by Sirius; Aug 31, 2020 @ 4:13pm
Biff Aug 31, 2020 @ 4:35pm 
I'd be up for joining, need to get the achievements!
Sirius Aug 31, 2020 @ 4:41pm 
Originally posted by Biff:
I'd be up for joining, need to get the achievements!
Alright! Gonna need at least 2 more and then the grinding can start. The 4 player requirement is guite annoying.
kfc10 Aug 31, 2020 @ 4:57pm 
.
Sirius Aug 31, 2020 @ 5:09pm 
Originally posted by kfc10:
.
Alright, one more to go.
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Date Posted: Aug 31, 2020 @ 12:25pm
Posts: 19