Doom Marine vs Doom Slayer

[JoeShmoe]

So in the originals our Doomguy is just a pretty regular human, lots of gym muscle tho! He saves Mars, goes to Hell and saves Earth.. as a human. Was it Doom3 or that bad movie where they made him like Captain America with serum? Anyway, still Cpt. America saving Mars, going to Hell, saving Earth from demons is a huge feat.

Now we have the Doom Slayer who is basically an Angel figure of badassness that Hell couldnt defeat if he was in a coma, had the flu and could only defeat demons with sweet unicycle trix. They still couldnt do it!!

I liked the story, the writing was all put together pretty well, and I'm never against anyone trying something new. My only issue is that it goes from 'this human is insanely badass for being able to accomplish all that or even attempting it' to 'The new Doomguy is just unstoppable anyway, so obviously we get where the story will go'. The project badass level of the Doom Slayer is so high that its disappointing.

[Sirzucc101]

Well I just watched a video on some lore (really new to the series) and it explains that the DOOM 2016 marine isn't really a human at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA6LTsEkNdg&t=807s

[Blueberry Cheesecake]

Actually, Doom Slayer (from doom 2016) and Doomguy (from doom 1-2) are the same person.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/6vrp7n/and_quake_champions_confirmed_everyones/

Quake Champions is an official id software product, and they signed off on and approved the lore.

[Shrinkshooter]

Originally posted by Blueberry Cheesecake:

Quake Champions is an official id software product, and they signed off on and approved the lore.

A mainstream corporation rubber stamping something just because they own the IP doesn't automatically make it so. "They say he's the same guy so he is" doesn't override something that would be obviously and completely contradictory. If Disney said "oh yeah, uh, Yoda is actually female!" that suddenly changes it to be true just because they bought the IP? No. Common sense overrides authoritarian dictation, especially if said dictation is stupid or contradictory.

I'm not claiming that's the case here, I'm saying that your reasoning for justification is laughably bad. If those two are the same guy, you're going to need far better and more sound rationale than simply "they said so."

[Salamand3r-]

Originally posted by Shrinkshooter:

Originally posted by Blueberry Cheesecake:

Quake Champions is an official id software product, and they signed off on and approved the lore.

A mainstream corporation rubber stamping something just because they own the IP doesn't automatically make it so. "They say he's the same guy so he is" doesn't override something that would be obviously and completely contradictory. If Disney said "oh yeah, uh, Yoda is actually female!" that suddenly changes it to be true just because they bought the IP? No. Common sense overrides authoritarian dictation, especially if said dictation is stupid or contradictory.

I'm not claiming that's the case here, I'm saying that your reasoning for justification is laughably bad. If those two are the same guy, you're going to need far better and more sound rationale than simply "they said so."

I think you fundamentally misunderstand how owning an IP lets you influence official canon.

Anything, including past canon, can be invalidated at any time.

Any official source is always correct, even if contradictory.

Anything else, any disagreement you may have is head canon or fan canon.

The canon and the lore are what Bethesda says. It isn't authoritarianism or dictatorship, it's called "they own the IP and they write the story". It's actually kind of the opposite.

If you don't like it, cool - do your own thing, write your own fanfic or slash, no one cares. But canonically speaking, Bethesda trumps all, even if John Romero's hair visits you in the night and tells you otherwise.

[Shrinkshooter]

Originally posted by Salamand3r:

I think you fundamentally misunderstand how owning an IP lets you influence official canon.

I'm fully aware how it works. The "official" statement will always be the "official" statement on the topic, even if it makes zero sense, breaks lore, contradicts everything, etc. I'm also saying that an official claim on the lore can be "wrong." This gets into the philosophical argument over what point an IP stops belonging to the creator and belongs to the fans. For example, Disney recently bought the rights to Star Wars. Imagine they retcon Yoda to be a yellow skinned female version who wears lipstick. Officially, that's canon. That's technically "how it is" according to what is technically considered official. Will anyone respect that? No. Will anyone go along with that? No. So, if zero of your userbase accepts your official narrative, is it THE narrative? The suits and companies will say yes. The people will say no. There are already tons of people who reject modern Star Wars, and even Hamill completely rejected Luke's "new" character, because that character isn't Luke, given everything anyone's ever known of him. That's a quintessential example there, really.

Too offtopic, point is, I know exactly what you're saying. And I'm saying no, there's a line in the sand somewhere past which technicalities no longer matter. Yoda ISN'T a yellow female who wears lipstick. The question comes down to whether you're a person who would simply take such arbitrary dictation of contradictory qualities lying down.

Bethesda/Id could say tomorrow that Doomguy is a blonde one-eyed chick with herpes and always has been. So is that "true"? Or "isn't" it? Would you gobble up the narrative of a soulless corporation who simply bought out a beloved decades-old property, simply because they own the IP?

[Salamand3r-]

If Disney decides tomorrow that Yoda is in fact Raquel Welch in her prime, and that Jar Jar is his secret internal symbiote, I'd be just fine with that.

Same if they say Doomguy turned gay when he went on a prom date with Santa Claus on the moon and now knobs underage penguins for profit. It doesn't matter.

It's all a product, and it was from the moment it made it's first penny. Even the original crew at id put their "artistic integrity" secondary to functionality. Otherwise the Doom Bible would be a text file in the 1993 shareware release instead of a non-canon source released to drum up publicity later on.

You know that Luke Skywalker was originally Luke Starkiller, a war hero in his 60s who eventually rode off into the sunset, right? But that didn't end up being in the movie because it was stupid. He was actually called Starkiller through almost the entire production, to the point of the only time Luke said his name on camera, he said Luke Starkiller, obviously cut from release. So, if Disney wanted to go back and retcon him to Luke Starkiller, a 60 year old war veteran lizard man, who'd be the one questioning artistic integrity at that point?

All this crap is meaningless anyway. What matters is, is the game mechanically playable and fun, and does it make sense as a self contained unit.

The kind of ludicrous fanboy debate you're trying to start feeds the "soulless corporations" far more than my not caring what someone who owns something does with their own property.

[Salamand3r-]

To expand on it specifically in Doom 2016, the point was to make the game a power fantasy, and to distinguish itself from Doom 3's powerless fantasy.

The decision to make the Doomslayer an eternal badass was a very deliberate decision to create the narrative and gameplay the game needed.

At some point, they realized that insane people were going to try to connect everything together, as people have done with Commander Keen and BJ Blazkowicz and Doomguy based on offhand developer trolling, and added a canon source to both A) please 50% of the people and B) incite the other 50% to keep the conversation about their IP active.

I don't mind falling into their brilliant 'lil scheme. It amuses me. But it seems like you're doing it and hating it at the same time.

[Shrinkshooter]

Originally posted by Salamand3r:

If Disney decides tomorrow that Yoda is in fact Raquel Welch in her prime, and that Jar Jar is his secret internal symbiote, I'd be just fine with that. Same if they say Doomguy turned gay when he went on a prom date with Santa Claus on the moon and now knobs underage penguins for profit. It doesn't matter.

Ah, so you're one of those "I'm a centrist, I don't care about anything" enlightened beings who claims not to care about anything because then there's no way to be criticized for holding an opinion in one direction. If it doesn't matter, then you don't have any standards for internal consistency in storytelling, and heck, why even pay attention to any plots at all? You'd be perfectly fine with every story ending with "and then X woke up and it was all a dream" handwaves because "it doesn't matter." It DOES matter. You don't end the climactic scene of a Batman movie with brightly colored ponies falling from the sky and bursting like glittery pinatas while giggling.

You know that Luke Skywalker was originally Luke Starkiller

Completely irrelevant because that's not what was established. It would make zero difference if George intended Luke to be a futuristic grizzled Black Panther freedom fighter who lost a leg in the war against white oppression, what he might have been is pointless. All that matters is what was established.

The kind of ludicrous fanboy debate you're trying to start feeds the "soulless corporations" far more than my not caring what someone who owns something does with their own property.

Oopsie! Getting a little presumptuous here, aren't you, Sparky? I never stated any opinion on this pertaining to the Doom lore, might want to recheck your reading comprehension. I already stated what the point was last post, need I repeat myself? Probably not, since it "doesn't matter." As such, thanks for taking the time to make completely pointless posts and wasting your life smacking a keyboard with your fingers in an utterly fruitless exercise. Isn't nihilism great?!

[rawWwRrr]

I accept it thusly: I am here to play a video game, not read a book or watch a movie. DOOM is about running and gunning through hordes of demons who are bent at killing me. If there is some inconsistency to the "canon" or "lore" I just let it go as creative license. As others have said, it's their IP. They can make the main character a pink unicorn with flame shooting out of his butt, as long as the game mechanics work and the gameplay is fun, I'm happy with it.

[Salamand3r-]

Someone has managed to misuse both the concepts of authoritarianism and nihilism is a lore thread.

That has to be a new record.

[TakenStew22]

Originally posted by JoeShmoe:

So in the originals our Doomguy is just a pretty regular human, lots of gym muscle tho! He saves Mars, goes to Hell and saves Earth.. as a human. Was it Doom3 or that bad movie where they made him like Captain America with serum? Anyway, still Cpt. America saving Mars, going to Hell, saving Earth from demons is a huge feat.

Now we have the Doom Slayer who is basically an Angel figure of badassness that Hell couldnt defeat if he was in a coma, had the flu and could only defeat demons with sweet unicycle trix. They still couldnt do it!!

I liked the story, the writing was all put together pretty well, and I'm never against anyone trying something new. My only issue is that it goes from 'this human is insanely badass for being able to accomplish all that or even attempting it' to 'The new Doomguy is just unstoppable anyway, so obviously we get where the story will go'. The project badass level of the Doom Slayer is so high that its disappointing.

I don't get why people are saying this. I'm seeing people say this in the Doomworld forums as well, and it's getting kind of annoying.

Just because a character is powerful does not mean that he is less interesting than some other character. It's like Superman hate all over again. "He's overpowered so he's not a good character!!!111".

[Shrinkshooter]

Originally posted by Salamand3r:

Someone has managed to misuse both the concepts of authoritarianism

I said authoritarian. The adjective doesn't directly coincide with the political concept.

"adjective

favoring complete obedience or subjection to authority"

They have the authority to make absolutely any and all changes or alterations to anything falling under the umbrella of their IP. According to you, literally anything they say goes for the IP because they own it, and are the exclusive authority OF it. Parents telling their children what to do is also authoritarian, it simply isn't "authoritarianism." It's just of or pertaining to authority. "Creation" can be used as a noun for various purposes, but "creationism" is a totally different ballgame.

But please, sensei senpai, do enlighten my ignorant mind

[Salamand3r-]

Originally posted by Shrinkshooter:

Originally posted by Salamand3r:

Someone has managed to misuse both the concepts of authoritarianism

I said authoritarian. The adjective doesn't directly coincide with the political concept.

"adjective

favoring complete obedience or subjection to authority"

They have the authority to make absolutely any and all changes or alterations to anything falling under the umbrella of their IP. According to you, literally anything they say goes for the IP because they own it, and are the exclusive authority OF it. Parents telling their children what to do is also authoritarian, it simply isn't "authoritarianism." It's just of or pertaining to authority. "Creation" can be used as a noun for various purposes, but "creationism" is a totally different ballgame.

But please, sensei senpai, do enlighten my ignorant mind

You used the phrase "authoritarian dictation", which is either redundant (if using it the way you describe in the post above) or implies a political overtone if eschewing the redundancy.

[JoeShmoe]

Originally posted by TakenStew22:

Originally posted by JoeShmoe:

So in the originals our Doomguy is just a pretty regular human, lots of gym muscle tho! He saves Mars, goes to Hell and saves Earth.. as a human. Was it Doom3 or that bad movie where they made him like Captain America with serum? Anyway, still Cpt. America saving Mars, going to Hell, saving Earth from demons is a huge feat.

Now we have the Doom Slayer who is basically an Angel figure of badassness that Hell couldnt defeat if he was in a coma, had the flu and could only defeat demons with sweet unicycle trix. They still couldnt do it!!

I liked the story, the writing was all put together pretty well, and I'm never against anyone trying something new. My only issue is that it goes from 'this human is insanely badass for being able to accomplish all that or even attempting it' to 'The new Doomguy is just unstoppable anyway, so obviously we get where the story will go'. The project badass level of the Doom Slayer is so high that its disappointing.

I don't get why people are saying this. I'm seeing people say this in the Doomworld forums as well, and it's getting kind of annoying.

Just because a character is powerful does not mean that he is less interesting than some other character. It's like Superman hate all over again. "He's overpowered so he's not a good character!!!111".

Its not that it makes the Doom Slayer a bad character, its that it does make him less interesting. It makes what he can accomplish less impactful because he has the ability to do it from the start, and you cant really do anything to stop him. Like they say in the Testaments; he defeats the legions of Hell, kills their Titan champion, and gets the girl. Thats just a regular day for someone of his 'Superman' power level. Thats why it matters more if a regular human can do these feats.

[Nihil]

I wouldn't say that this is disappointing that they switched from the "human who can accomplish anything if there is a will" to a more majestically and powerful figure concept.
Why would be a human able to go against hell itself by his own, without anything, any help, any celestial magic or anything? Is still a human. I observed this "we can do anything we are the most powerful beings in the universe" megalomaniac mindset by a a specific nation in real life. So it exists and because of that I understand that people like this concept. But I think the new approach with the mistery behind the DoomSlayer and who he is/was is much more consumable for the regular people.
And to the discussion wether or not DoomGuy and Doomslayer are the same person.....well calm down, not that relevant. I think even id Software is not totally sure what they want. In quake they say they are the same, in Doom itself if you listen to the commentary of the holograms and demonic voice and read the codex, they say, DoomSlayer is/was one of the sentinels. Who were mighty defenders in the first place.