Kingdom Come: Deliverance

Kingdom Come: Deliverance

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Medieval misconceptions: No, most peasants could read and write.
The term "illiterate" during the medieval period strictly applied only to Latin, not native language. The vast majority of peasants/small folk absolutely could read and write in their native languages because it was so dang useful. Sadly, KC:D gets this wrong by pushing the false trope.

It was important to keep Latin out of the hands of non-Clergy because they believed only anointed religious members could correctly read and interpret the Bible, thus then they would tell the masses what they should believe. They thought that the average person wouldn't be able to interpret it correctly, thus condemn themselves to hell, which is largely what Catholicism is based on. You see this predominately in Johanka's half of the Woman's Lot DLC. This inevitably lead to Jan Hus (referenced several times in KC:D) starting the Protestant revolution, sparking the Hussite wars, and even getting Radzig killed. I think Hans Capon, after he became lord, also died in one of these wars fighting alongside his men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-abyQLl8mPI
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Showing 1-15 of 58 comments
bb 80 Feb 8, 2023 @ 2:36pm 
3
That's probably not true.
I watched the vid and the evidence vid. Then looked at the sources. It's not good. The first one is also just an outline. The second an essay. The third is no study at all. the forth is a wiki page. The fifth link is dead. The sixth link sends you the the site of a university colloqium.

Ok, so most of the scholarship on the topic puts the numbers well below 20%. Excluding England and the Netherlands but even in England it only reached 50% around 1650.

Here this is fairly easy to understand. No university access needed.
https://brewminate.com/the-growth-of-literacy-in-western-europe-from-1500-to-1800/

"At the end of the Middle Ages, the ability to write was restricted to less than 10% of men and hardly any women possessed it." That's after the period this game is set in.

Or check out this: Eskelson, Tyrel C. "States, Institutions, and Literacy Rates in Early-Modern Western Europe." Journal of Education and Learning 10.2 (2021): 109-123."
"Literacy rates in Western European countries during the Middle Ages were below twenty percent of the population. For most countries, literacy rates did not experience significant increases until the Enlightenment and industrialization."
Last edited by bb 80; Feb 8, 2023 @ 2:42pm
Judeo-communism Feb 8, 2023 @ 3:08pm 
2
He literally addressed your concerns in a follow up video explaining how to read his sources.

It's extremely important to define the term "literacy." Yes, very few could read and write in Latin. That does not include native language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kISM2od3BJ0
Last edited by Judeo-communism; Feb 8, 2023 @ 3:25pm
MF Feb 8, 2023 @ 4:51pm 
Originally posted by bb 80:
That's probably not true.
I watched the vid and the evidence vid. Then looked at the sources. It's not good. The first one is also just an outline. The second an essay. The third is no study at all. the forth is a wiki page. The fifth link is dead. The sixth link sends you the the site of a university colloqium.

Wiki is where I go for my hard facts................................. yep.
bb 80 Feb 9, 2023 @ 12:22am 
1
Originally posted by Google metzitzah:
He literally addressed your concerns in a follow up video explaining how to read his sources.

It's extremely important to define the term "literacy." Yes, very few could read and write in Latin. That does not include native language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kISM2od3BJ0
I was talking about the so called evidence in the "The evidence that medieval PEASANTS could READ! Medieval Misconceptions" video. I'm a scientist and I looked into the sources. They are not good and his conclusions should be called wild speculation.
In the first study, which is actually an outline (more like a scientific preview) I could not find any literacy rates.
From the first source:"Although it is still far too early for a proper synthesis, the broad, comparative perspective adopted in our project allows us nevertheless to indicate some
general characteristics of urban literacy. They will doubtless be adjusted by
further research; we thought it might be worthwhile even so to provide an
outline of what we have observed so far."
Furthermore, nowhere in this study do they give a number or anything that would indicate 50% literacy. I only skimmed the first two sources that youtuber provided but I didn't see anything in there.

That shadiversity channel (using a homonym to "shady" in a youtube name is amusing, though. Reminds me of name Miss Information) puts out around six videos per month. Considering all the other work one has to put in to making a video (script writing, editing and so on) I doubt that this guy spent more than a day or two on research. Maybe less.

From his internetpage
"Shad decided to be a novelist in 2007 and begun a dedicated endeavour to learn how to be one to the best of his ability, participating in top creative writing courses and learning from some of the most successful fantasy writers in the world."
:D alrighty then. Keep in mind that he probably wrote that himself. I guess those top writing courses which remain anonymous didn't produce any degrees. Of course, he doesn't name any of those most successful fantasy writers as well. I'm not convinced by that because I asked very good friends of mine like some of the most prominent private investigators on the planet and Jesus.

there is nothing wrong with having no qualifications. Curiosity and determination can be good substitutes. Making up qualifications on the other hand...

In conclusion, the channel is for a non scientific audience and almost none probably look at the sources. I guess you didn't, did you? It would call this video pseudo-scientific clickbait. Well. that is how he makes his money. He has less than 600 supporters on patreon on a 1$ level. A video with 350k viewers brings around 1500$. Most of his videos have less views therefore bring less money. The best money makers on his channel are "scam this" or "real truth that" and vids about female body parts. These kind of videos attract a certain audience who wants to feel knowledgeable but are unwilling to put the work in to actually be knowledgeable.

Ok, I have to get back to work aka stop procrastinating.
Last edited by bb 80; Feb 9, 2023 @ 12:29am
bb 80 Feb 9, 2023 @ 12:22am 
Originally posted by MF:
Originally posted by bb 80:
That's probably not true.
I watched the vid and the evidence vid. Then looked at the sources. It's not good. The first one is also just an outline. The second an essay. The third is no study at all. the forth is a wiki page. The fifth link is dead. The sixth link sends you the the site of a university colloqium.

Wiki is where I go for my hard facts................................. yep.
We all do. :)
Lieste Feb 9, 2023 @ 7:46am 
I have to question 'most'. What, how much, why and how well?

Within a ville, you'd have:
Priest - Reading familiar Latin from a bible/catechism... not necessarily with deep comprehension. An unknown ability to read and write the secular language or to write latin, though it is possible.
Noble's family - Reading is possible, and perhaps likely in a significant proportion - there is some idle time and money and access to poetry etc, and privately owned prayer books/psalters/bibles. Also the utility benefit of being able to read/audit the estate accounts.
Wealthier villeins, freemen, tradesmen ~ sufficient income and trade with others in multitudes to make record keeping worthwhile. Sufficient status to *perhaps* make literacy for pleasure a possibility, perhaps a private psalter in latin.... but vulgar religious texts in the future.
Other labourers, poorer villeins, cottagers, the 'mass' of the population had less pressing need to learn reading and writing - less social clout to demonstrate and less opportunity to commission a private copy of a manuscript or book to practise on/with.

Within the ville are a few *tasks* that require reading and writing - the keeping of the manor court records - estate reports for landlords who may be absent, records of income and assets for the assessment of fines and tithes.... and some people would have an interest in these sufficient to motivate learning the basics of that task... but if you *know someone* who can read you have a 'functional' literacy which will limit the drive to be self literate in either or both of reading and writing and the very restricted contexts of that literacy - I speak/comprehend little, and read and write virtually no German, nor French, but can muddle through *some of it* sufficient to obtain relevant parameters from a treatise on ordnance from the C18th-C19th (or from ~1940)... is that 'literate in French' or just looking for a few numbers alongside a single word/phrase that I have a use for?

'Most people' might be able to recognise their name, or a few other words... fewer might be able to write it, but near universal literacy... at an adaptive and higher level, is really not a thing for the overwhelming proportion of the rural or urban poor.

As a tradesman it is likely that Henry *should* have some 'functional' literacy around accounts and the manor court and it's formulae... but there is little access to recreational literature, so little development of extensive reading comprehension, AFAICT and IMO
Garp02 Feb 9, 2023 @ 9:24am 
This thread demonstrates how most people just take others conclusions as facts without checking for yourself. Thank you to bb 80 for not being one of the "Most People".

Quote:
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is a proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance.
That principle is condemnation before investigation!
Edmund Spencer, English Poet – 1552 - 1599.
Last edited by Garp02; Feb 9, 2023 @ 9:25am
bb 80 Feb 9, 2023 @ 11:28am 
Originally posted by Garp02:
This thread demonstrates how most people just take others conclusions as facts without checking for yourself. Thank you to bb 80 for not being one of the "Most People".

Quote:
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is a proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance.
That principle is condemnation before investigation!
Edmund Spencer, English Poet – 1552 - 1599.
Maybe not this thread but the comments below the video are not encouraging.

By the way, Google metzitzah wrote a long post that stated, among other things, that leftist Jews murdered 300 million white people. One of the most antisemtic posts I have ever seen. It was deleted so you have to take my word for it. When I reacted to this individual I only did it because he is pretty obviously wrong about this as he is apparently about many things.

Here a quote from Google metzitzah that still exists:"Also, about your example of "subhumans." You mean how the jews see everyone else who isn't them? Because they do it everyone and have for thousands of years. Remember holodmor where Bolshevik jews killed over 90+ million White Christians through starvation using the exact same tactics happening in America today like "BLM" and "Q Trust the plan" and "Green new deals"?"

(from the thread "*SPOILERS* What's the future for the story in KC:D?")

Get it?! The Jews killed 90 million white Christians during the Ukrainian genocide which is pretty impressive considering that Ukraine had a population of around 30 million. Another solid piece of research by Google metzitzah.
Last edited by bb 80; Feb 9, 2023 @ 12:17pm
n0mad23 Feb 9, 2023 @ 11:49am 
Wow.

"Most" totally falls apart with the barest of examinations.

Sure there was some literacy in the vernacular - but what there was was purely contextual. What reason could any peasant have for learning to read and write? Access to books? The % of non-Latin books before the Renaissance (and non Arabic) are sparse to say the least.

So why would any peasants learn to read and write at all?

Local law. Period. To take and shoulder some of the responsibilities a bunch of land lords wanted to give up, namely local land disputes, etc. It was this literacy that enabled the Peasant Rebellion in England in 1381, but that certainly didn't require "most" peasants being able to read the missives being sent around.
Originally posted by bb 80:
Originally posted by Garp02:
This thread demonstrates how most people just take others conclusions as facts without checking for yourself. Thank you to bb 80 for not being one of the "Most People".

Quote:
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is a proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance.
That principle is condemnation before investigation!
Edmund Spencer, English Poet – 1552 - 1599.
Maybe not this thread but the comments below the video are not encouraging.

By the way, Google metzitzah wrote a long post that stated, among other things, that leftist Jews murdered 300 million white people. One of the most antisemtic posts I have ever seen. It was deleted so you have to take my word for it. When I reacted to this individual I only did it because he is pretty obviously wrong about this as he is apparently about many things.

Here a quote from Google metzitzah that still exists:"Also, about your example of "subhumans." You mean how the jews see everyone else who isn't them? Because they do it everyone and have for thousands of years. Remember holodmor where Bolshevik jews killed over 90+ million White Christians through starvation using the exact same tactics happening in America today like "BLM" and "Q Trust the plan" and "Green new deals"?"

(from the thread "*SPOILERS* What's the future for the story in KC:D?")

Get it?! The Jews killed 90 million white Christians during the Ukrainian genocide which is pretty impressive considering that Ukraine had a population of around 30 million. Another solid piece of research by Google metzitzah.
They also think sickness is made up.....:steamfacepalm:
bb 80 Feb 9, 2023 @ 12:53pm 
Originally posted by Lord_Of_Death:
Originally posted by bb 80:
Maybe not this thread but the comments below the video are not encouraging.

By the way, Google metzitzah wrote a long post that stated, among other things, that leftist Jews murdered 300 million white people. One of the most antisemtic posts I have ever seen. It was deleted so you have to take my word for it. When I reacted to this individual I only did it because he is pretty obviously wrong about this as he is apparently about many things.

Here a quote from Google metzitzah that still exists:"Also, about your example of "subhumans." You mean how the jews see everyone else who isn't them? Because they do it everyone and have for thousands of years. Remember holodmor where Bolshevik jews killed over 90+ million White Christians through starvation using the exact same tactics happening in America today like "BLM" and "Q Trust the plan" and "Green new deals"?"

(from the thread "*SPOILERS* What's the future for the story in KC:D?")

Get it?! The Jews killed 90 million white Christians during the Ukrainian genocide which is pretty impressive considering that Ukraine had a population of around 30 million. Another solid piece of research by Google metzitzah.
They also think sickness is made up.....:steamfacepalm:
Well she/probably he would have to, considering that he mentioned that he never washes his hands.
Azor Feb 9, 2023 @ 1:43pm 
tbf youtube "historians" are as trustworthy as "historically accurate" videogames and movies.
AmesNFire Feb 9, 2023 @ 10:46pm 
Originally posted by azor:
tbf youtube "historians" are as trustworthy as "historically accurate" videogames and movies.

"Based on a true story" with embellishment, dramatization, historical inaccuracies, entirely fabricated characters, an unnecessary and non-existent in history romance, and also we just made up the "true story" part.
Lambda Feb 10, 2023 @ 12:46am 
Originally posted by Google metzitzah:
The term "illiterate" during the medieval period strictly applied only to Latin, not native language. The vast majority of peasants/small folk absolutely could read and write in their native languages because it was so dang useful. Sadly, KC:D gets this wrong by pushing the false trope.

It was important to keep Latin out of the hands of non-Clergy because they believed only anointed religious members could correctly read and interpret the Bible, thus then they would tell the masses what they should believe. They thought that the average person wouldn't be able to interpret it correctly, thus condemn themselves to hell, which is largely what Catholicism is based on. You see this predominately in Johanka's half of the Woman's Lot DLC. This inevitably lead to Jan Hus (referenced several times in KC:D) starting the Protestant revolution, sparking the Hussite wars, and even getting Radzig killed. I think Hans Capon, after he became lord, also died in one of these wars fighting alongside his men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-abyQLl8mPI
ok
DocBockNstein Feb 10, 2023 @ 5:22am 
I watched an old commercial once(From the 80s) for a service in the us that you could call to teach you how to read(Not an ESL service either). If it was a big enough problem to have a service for it in the 80's then it does not take much to imagine what a mostly rural collection of Farming Family's could do or not do with reading in the "middle ages".

bb you are a gigachad and your work is appreciated and I can say for one time in my life I used the internet and actually learned something.
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Date Posted: Feb 8, 2023 @ 1:04pm
Posts: 58