How does combat work in this game?

[Snaxxor]

I've tried playing this game before and quit because of it. Trying the game again starting from the beginning and get to the first brawl in the tutorial start. WIthout even getting to sword combat etc. why is it in a brawl i randomly get grappled? Why does it go slow motion and make a weird woosh noise? Why is it when told the buttons to attack and to block that when I block there is no motion to block, or I block without pressing it? These things are never explained even when looking it up. So I make this post asking is there any other mechanic other than raw stat value that influences the combat that I do not understand.

[MacSuibhne]

I applaud the way you asked this question and made this post.

I wish I could help you but i can't--the reason is that, IMO, the combat works fine in this game. Just as it is supposed to. I've played the game through twice (once on hardcore) amassing 300+ hours in each play-through and not experienced any of the problems you mention, much less any significant or game-breaking bugs.

I will say this--Henry is an ignorant teenager and has no skills. None, for all intents and purposes. Henry has to learn and earn every skill and every xp point.

And that means you do too.

This game will not hand anything to you. The combat is not easy--esp. if you're expecting a button-mashing hack and slash.

However, if you have the grit and the patience and the willingness to learn, it's not only doable, it's seriously fun--maybe the best game out there.

[Snaxxor]

well the problem is that it feels like a simple button mashing hack and slash, especially in a brawl, and a sword fight even using techniques to counter it doesn't work. so what i did to experiment in my first play-through was went into debug mode to max sword stats (and strength, etc.) and i too was randomly locking the enemy in grapple attacks. So it was very strange from my pov because i thought doing those grapple stun locks were a skill and not just meant to trigger if you are just better stat wise. See the thing is once you are doing these moves you just can't lose because they can't attack. So i get the premise of the game is to grind for your skils/stats i've played other games like morrowind that are like that.

But I feel like even when I was playing morrowind even when I wasn't using exploits with potions or anything, I could still walk into a high-level cave as a low level character and still have the chance to win every fight, even if it's very small by loading and saving. Here however it feels more like rock paper scissors where is no chance to win unless you are just straight up better and in the end, feels like i'm watching a scripted cutscene.

[n0mad23]

It's really not the kind of game where you are the insta-hero, savior of the universe.
That's really the point though.

I think you're supposed to experience how it might have been becoming heroic as that unlikely illiterate son of a village blacksmith in medieval Bohemia.

In other words, "hard times ahead."

Just to drive the point home, one of the first missions is titled "Run!" They mean it.

Fist fighting that drunken guy you've gone to collect the bill from doesn't have to be done one vs. one. There are at least 2 other choices at hand. There's nothing really in Hal's physique or personality that suggest he's likely to try to go to blows with some one like that anyway, right?? It's possible, sure, but really it's that type of game. Being story driven, the clues are handed out pretty well.

Even later, when you've got pillaged and repaired armor worth entire counties, taking on 4 or 6 armed opponents is something you'll never button mash your way through. Die quickly on the other hand....that's always going to be easy.

It's a game where the reward comes from putting in the necessary work to get good enough to easily go toe to toe against the best. That means slowing down and actually doing the work the game wants/requires you to do.

Until you get past the intro (the 3rd town you'll see), fighting in any way isn't going to be your best option.

[BaconHer0]

I'll try to explain the game in mechanical principals. Games follow sets of rules and KCD is no different. Understanding how the rules work will help you understand combat

Автор сообщения: Snaxxor

WIthout even getting to sword combat etc. why is it in a brawl i randomly get grappled?

Grapple and clinches are range deterministic. If you are too close to your target, the probability of you performing a grapple or clinch goes up very high. Grapples proc for unarmed combatants, clinches proc against armed.

Why does it go slow motion and make a weird woosh noise?

The game's mocap is captured at one speed and one animation set. A greenhorn-peasant moves exactly the same way in combat as an elite knight. So, for the game to approximate and represent the difference in skill, the slow-mo effect is used.

When your skill outmatches the enemy, you get more slow-mo, it gives you more time to react. If your enemy is higher level than you, you get almost no slow-mo

Why is it when told the buttons to attack and to block that when I block there is no motion to block, or I block without pressing it?

Umm... I don't really understand this question. I think you're referring to perfect blocks?

So normally, when you hold block, Henry will lift his shield or weapon and this gives him a higher base chance to block an attack (it's not 100%, strong enemies can still break or go through your block, especially if you're using a weapon with low defence and no shield)

In game, there is a timing based perfect block which cost no stamina if you do it right, but you can only do this after Cpt Bernard teaches you how.

These things are never explained even when looking it up. So I make this post asking is there any other mechanic other than raw stat value that influences the combat that I do not understand.

Yes, there are other mechanics. The position of your weapon relative to your enemy for one affects your chance to hit/block.

So, if your weapon and your enemy's weapon is in the same petal, you get a bigger window for launching a perfect-defence and master-strike but so does your enemy. This is because the weapon is "covering" that side.

On the other hand, when you attack an uncovered position, especially the opposite side of where your enemy is holding his weapon, you get a bonus chance to hit - but so does your enemy.

Then there's feints that can further improve your chances to hit. Combine feints with attacks from the contra-direction and you'll improve your base chance to hit quite a bit.

There's also the speed of your attacks determined by the weapon you use and whether your weapon is suitable for your stats. Example, if you use a metal plated axe at level 4, you're going to be clumsy and slow. Also know that the stab attack is much faster than a swing and much cheaper, stamina wise, and can more often overcome blocks

There's also other stuff like how the lock-unlock mechanic works and the difference between walk speed in combat and run speed, stamina and armour etc etc..... but that's a whole topic on its own

Автор сообщения: Snaxxor

So i get the premise of the game is to grind for your skils/stats i've played other games like morrowind that are like that.

Here however it feels more like rock paper scissors where is no chance to win unless you are just straight up better and in the end, feels like i'm watching a scripted cutscene.

It can kinda feel that way if you don't understand the rules. Brute forcing the game when you're level 20 takes the challenge out of it though.

In this game, combat's high concept is trading stamina for damage, and you're better able to do this at high levels. But that doesn't mean you can't do it on lower levels, you just have to understand the specifics of combat so that you can boost your chances to hit

[DargonBlak]

While i may be repeating some form the others, there are a couple major points.

1. Every attack you make is treated as a "contest of skills" - the NPC will naturally try to block or avoid, and try to counter, and all of this is your "roll" against their "roll", each roll modified by the contributing attributes and skills. Contributing skills for a melee attack contest could be Strength, Agility, Warfare, Weapon Skill, Defense Skill

2. Jab is your friend. The fast attack jab has a better chance of getting through opponent defense than a slow attack swing. in unarmed combat, rely on the jab. in all other combat, rely on swing and jab.

3. Stamina is very important. Attacks on you can reduce your stamina. If your stamina runs out, then you cannot properly defend, and Every Attack on you will do Significant Damage. NEVER let you stamina get below 1/3rd - thus, back step often to let your stamina regenerate and also use the backstep to avoid attacks. Later in game, you will learn "Perfect Blocks" which do not cost stamina, and allow you to stay engaged for longer and hopefully wear down your opponent's stamina (and then crush them).

This is not hack and slash - it is a timed combat mechanic with a cadence. Learn the cadence. 2-3 attacks, then back step - recover - move in for 2-3 attacks, backstep to recover. Rinse and repeat. If they start to stagger, then their stamina is low - move in for the kill :)

[MacSuibhne]

Автор сообщения: Snaxxor

well the problem is that it feels like a simple button mashing hack and slash,

IMO, the problem is one of misaligned expectations... you (and many others) thought KCD was gonna be another Skyrim (or Morrowind, or Witcher); or maybe just because dern near every other game in an even remotely similar vein has been a hack and slash, you expected a KCD to be the same with the same pathetic mechanics.

But as has been said so many times here, it's not. And nothing will be handed to you--you have to earn it.

But yes, you can cheat, cheese, and exploit the game. And you can 'bully' it. But to the degree that you do any of that, you're no longer playing Kingdom Come: Deliverance--you're playing "How-much-can-I-get-for-the-least-amount-of-effort."

Which, while a common and popular game in society at large, is very much not KCD.

[Acidophilus]

The short answer to the question "How does combat work in this game?" for me was: "you lose, you lose, you lose again lots of times, you're meant to lose lots of times". Your character is rubbish to start with. Yeah, if you want to be instantly awesome at combat then this is the wrong game, but persevere and it will repay you.
I only managed to beat Kunesh in the fist-fight on my fifth playthrough, and that was after increasing my strength as much as I could by picking every single flower in Skalitz (eventually you get a perk where herb-picking increases your strength). But I wouldn't recommend doing that on your first playthrough - you'll just get bored. Just be happy to lose every fight until you get to train sufficiently with Bernard. He'll absolutely pummel you the first few times, you'll maybe hit him once or twice. Stop, rest, play some dice, pick some locks, and try again tomorrow. Eventually you'll get the hang of it, ideally sub-consciously, but expect it to take a long time. In the meantime enjoy the more peaceful aspects of the game.
I think the 'slow motion and woosh' bit you refer to is the indication that your character is running out of stamina, and you should really back off from your opponent well before this happens. In the early game you might manage two or three punches before you have to back off. Recover for a couple of seconds then punch again, and repeat.

[Lieste]

The slow down is supposed to approximate the increase in haptics you get in a real fight with the 3d distance visual influence and the blade contact providing information on direction, pressure and speed during blade work (the tempo of the fight changes significantly IRL with the presence/absence of contact, and much of the training is imparting "useful" actions to the natural flinch reactions (which are not productive against someone who is even mildly competent)).

It isn't a 1:1 match, because a controller or mouse in no way corresponds to the presence of a 2-3ft blade of steel, which has limitations on directions it can be waggled in, especially if you intend it to strike with effect when it lands... but it does make the 'feel' of the fight closer, rather than further away from fencing with a weapon in hand.

Skill plays a role in how generous or narrow the 'timing' windows are for certain classes of attack or defence (e.g. combinatory devices, grapples/clinches and parries/voids), where your task is made easier if your combat stats and skills are higher, and harder if they are lower than your opponent. This is not an unreasonable implementation - the "same" cut thrown by a skilled fencer is harder to defend against and to 'work the angles' on, than one thrown by a novice, even if they are performing a drill moderately competently - and many of the masterful plays are only subtle tweaks to the natural flow of cutting that provide less information to the opponent, while making space to send an attack to an opening (right up to the masterstrikes, which leave a parry on the centreline, while defending and opening angle to deliver a simultaneous strike behind the parry with a simple step to change the dynamics - but this is still nothing significantly "more" than a simple attack, just performed better and with proper use of timing and space)


The slowdown is the 'moment of decision' the 'now' of a play - sending the attack into an opening you are creating 'now', or alternatively 'feeling' or 'sensing' the 'now' of a defence - the result can be a delivered attack, or a successful defence (or both), or it can result in an exchange of the 'before' between the two fencers as each reacts and works to defend and re-attack - or leave.

[MacSuibhne]

Автор сообщения: Lieste

It isn't a 1:1 match, because a controller or mouse in no way corresponds to the presence of a 2-3ft blade of steel ... but it does make the 'feel' of the fight closer, rather than further away from fencing with a weapon in hand.

This is not an unreasonable implementation - the "same" cut thrown by a skilled fencer is harder to defend against and to 'work the angles' on, than one thrown by a novice ... (right up to the masterstrikes, which ... is still nothing significantly "more" than a simple attack, just performed better and with proper use of timing and space)

[BaconHer0]

I made a tutorial video of early game Henry with 0 sword and 0 defence skills, on hardcore with all negative perks fighting a fully armoured bandit that's somewhere between levels 10 to 14.

https://youtu.be/Qe84Hith_MI

This is to show that if you know the rules of combat in this game, you can very easily break the rules and score wins where you shouldn't.

Even without any stats or the ability to master-strike, block or feint, YOU CAN STILL ADAPT TO THE GAME AND WIN

[Snaxxor]

Автор сообщения: BaconHer0

Grapple and clinches are range deterministic. If you are too close to your target, the probability of you performing a grapple or clinch goes up very high. Grapples proc for unarmed combatants, clinches proc against armed.

...When your skill outmatches the enemy, you get more slow-mo, it gives you more time to react. If your enemy is higher level than you, you get almost no slow-mo

...this gives him a higher base chance to block an attack (it's not 100%, strong enemies can still break or go through your block, especially if you're using a weapon with low defence and no shield)

...Yes, there are other mechanics. The position of your weapon relative to your enemy for one affects your chance to hit/block.

...On the other hand, when you attack an uncovered position, especially the opposite side of where your enemy is holding his weapon, you get a bonus chance to hit - but so does your enemy.

But this confirms what I was asking, if you have a high stat value it's just a matter if your's is higher, because you then have a higher chance to do a random grapple/clinch meaning so long as you are doing that you will win, same goes for them. No amount of watching where their sword is or aiming for their weakpoint matters because I've tested it on Bernard in debug mode. Starting off very weak, even if you aim at the weakpoint and hit it at the perfect time Bernard for example will go from starting a swing from the right while you swing left and then all of a sudden you are in a grapple as his animation janks to it. Yet if you are higher stats and aim for where his sword is, even you will grapple him when realistically that would've been an easy block for him to do.

This is fine sure, but only if that's what the game is presenting that to you upfront, instead of trying to present the illusion of a combat system that is like Blade Symphony or other fighting games.

[Lieste]

You are wrong. You control the decisions about distance, the direction of cuts, how you defend and when, and when and if to attack, even at the simplest of levels. In addition as you gain new techniques you get to use them by following the required set of cuts and the proper timing to gain advantages in 'free' attacks with no risk of being defended against for the last cut of a device, or for masterstrikes (with the correct timing).

This is all "easier" when you have superior skills and stats, but it is quite possible to train with Bernard in Rataje - once in "Train Hard, Fight Easy" and then again to gain the masterstrike and combinatory attack skills unlocked, and then immediately be able to use all of these against enemies of any skill if you are capable of applying the right tactical decisions and mechanical use of the techniques. It isn't "hard", but there is a player skill component to it, which encourages training Henry (to make it higher odds) but also to practice your own understanding of the fight and how to use Henry's tools.

[Noeat]

https://steamcommunity.com/app/379430/discussions/0/3185737967873226814/

enjoy

[BaconHer0]

Автор сообщения: Snaxxor

But this confirms what I was asking, if you have a high stat value it's just a matter if your's is higher,

On one hand, yes, having more stats improves your probability to win but on the other hand even with literally 0 stats you can win against high level opponents if you know what you're doing. I posted a video above demonstrating that fact.

Автор сообщения: BaconHer0

I made a tutorial video of early game Henry with 0 sword and 0 defence skills
https://youtu.be/Qe84Hith_MI

I've even posted a video fighting 1v26 and winning. Just because the odds are against you doesn't mean you can't win. You just need to know how to control your variables in-game

https://youtu.be/1e_VONHx15o

Автор сообщения: Snaxxor

because you then have a higher chance to do a random grapple/clinch meaning so long as you are doing that you will win, same goes for them.

First off, I want to say that if you are accidentally grappling your opponent then you are doing it very wrong

I see where you're coming from but no. Grapple and clinch isn't random. You can control it by adjusting your range. Your ability to win at grapple and clinch is determined by your stats, so it is probabilistic but not random.

A good player will know when they want to go into a clinch and do it on purpose. There is actually a good reason to go into a clinch even if you are likely to lose. There are also situations where you must avoid a clinch even if you are certain to win. These are tactical decisions a good player can proc or avoid on purpose.

Автор сообщения: Snaxxor

No amount of watching where their sword is or aiming for their weakpoint matters because I've tested it on Bernard in debug mode. ... Yet if you are higher stats and aim for where his sword is, even you will grapple him when realistically that would've been an easy block for him to do.

As I've said, yes, you can win hits with high stats but also as I've said, you can still win fights with no stats if you know what you're doing. You just need to adapt to the situation.

If you have low stats DO NOT FIGHT AS IF YOU HAVE HIGH STATS! You will be on the foul end of the trade. Instead, learn how to trade more effectively at lower levels

Even at level 20 when you are faced against a master opponent like Zoul, your base chance to hit may be only around ~30%... If you go in without feinting and attacking uncovered positions, you'll be on the losing side of the stamina trade

Автор сообщения: Snaxxor

This is fine sure, but only if that's what the game is presenting that to you upfront, instead of trying to present the illusion of a combat system that is like Blade Symphony or other fighting games.

The most fun I've had in this game is beating the odds. That is, going into fair fights against opponents who are way more leveled than me or fighting swarms of enemies alone.

Blade Symphony has the same kinds of abstractions as KCD's combat. Direction of attack, positioning, equipment based move and attack set, etc... Blade Symphony may be faster and more fluid but the probability game is still there. How you chain your attacks, how you angle, deflect and block, all contribute to your hit chance. Both KCD and Blade Symphony allow you to go beyond the base stats and modify your base probability by doing precise and correct movements, correctly timed hits, and adapting to a correct tempo

The main difference is that KCD also has an RPG layer that modifies your base chance to hit but if you treat this game like poker and just say "oh well, I'm level 4 so I'll only have bad hands, might as well just keep folding and not play", then of course you're not going to have fun because you're not playing the game at a high level

[Eminem]

Go mace. It's newb friendly. Just don't spam attack with it since you'll lose stamina fast.

Mace + Shield = aim for the head. Just got to land once pretty much, lol