Can you recruit M+F by intentionally failing A Rock and a Hard Place (e.g. The Die Is Cast cutoff/auto-fail)?

[NewbieOne]

As per title. Just when I come to solve their problems by offering each of them a job and a free house and five years of no taxation, they say they can't move because they have problems to solve. Anyway, I don't want to steal from the Talmbergians and would prefer not to insta-auto-succeed by robbing the money myself before talking to my lousy friends (which some players report doesn't work any more anyway). So I thought maybe I could go to Vranik in order to fail M&F's quest line?

If you can't keep them alive without committing crimes on their behalf, then so be it. However, I was hoping to recruit them and I'd obviously prefer to keep Henry's friends alive anyway.

[PafunaMT]

Here's what I do - and it's very sappy and sentimental, so bring Kleenex or a vomit bag, depending on your view.

Once you get the quest from Matthew, don't go to Andrew, or talk to anyone else - go straight to Talmberg, sneak into the tower where they keep the chest, steal the bag with the money, and put 3k Groschen out of your own purse into the trunk. Go find Matthew and Fritz, share the loot, and go about your day.

I do it this way because I don't like to steal from Talmberg and I don't want Matthew and Fritz hung for dreaming up stupid ♥♥♥♥ that will get them killed. And while Andrew is a conniving schmuck, he's a useful conniving schmuck and moderately entertaining. No one dies, you get to feel good about yourself, and 3k groschen is a pittance.

Enjoy.

[vine]

Originally posted by PafunaMT:

No one dies, you get to feel good about yourself, and 3k groschen is a pittance.[/spoiler]
Enjoy.

3k gr with rebuilt Prib is what, 2-3days income? not to mention any other venue to earn cash.. yep sometimes it's that easy

[MacSuibhne]

Originally posted by PafunaMT:

Here's what I do - and it's very sappy and sentimental, so bring Kleenex or a vomit bag, depending on your view.

Enjoy.

I really like your solution. It's really brilliant. I have often wished I could just give them some of the gr. I have collected.

In the end, however, I just never took the quest and as far as I know they're all still standing there waiting for life to happen. I don't feel particularly good about it but Matthew and Fritz are rounders. After a certain point I just washed my hands of them. It's not the only quest I sidestepped.

[Old Ben]

It was kinda interesting to see M, F and Andrew all hanging by the neck outside of the glade. I did all possible outcomes just for grins and achievements. I ended up sending M & F to Prib and they keep the tavern wealthy with all the drinking. Its only a game, try all outcomes, some are fun.

[DargonBlak]

I never went beyond Masquerade with those two - Henry is not stealing for them - the words "lousy" and "louse" are nearly the same for a reason.

Yes, Henry cares about his friends, and he worked to get them a real easy job in Ledetchko, which they screwed up for themselves (after Henry worked even harder so they could keep it). Friendship needs to be a complementary relationship.

With M&F it becomes a never ending cycle, and if you read ahead, they continue to be a burden for Henry in Pryb - costing more than they are worth (which means more scams)

Henry has put in his effort only for M&F, but they never get their crap together, so no thanks - no need to keep enabling losers - just cut them lose and move on (stopping with masquerade and they stay at the Inn)

I do understand the interest in keeping them close though, and i may do what you suggest in some future playthrough, but for now i suppose it's just a vomit bag for me i guess - lol ;)

[dobe0331]

I really think this quest should have been integrated with From the Ash DLC. I'm a Ballif of Prybislatviz with more than 50 k Groschen in my pocket, yet I can't just spare 3 k to these two lazy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥? It is really disappointing.

[vine]

Originally posted by dobe0331:

I really think this quest should have been integrated with From the Ash DLC. I'm a Ballif of Prybislatviz with more than 50 k Groschen in my pocket, yet I can't just spare 3 k to these two lazy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥? It is really disappointing.

eagerly awaiting your groundbreaking RPG.. if you get me.. there's only limited time to produce a game, not to mention writing it before producing, right? so.. how can any dev account for any and all potential venues that players would like to explore?
I don't get your kind of argument.. seriously do you complain to Bethesda/ID that you can't just walk past all the demons in Doom and finish it without a kill? ehhhh...... mgod

[david.burghardt]

Except that his solution makes sense in universe - and it is reasonable to expect some players would just cash out at that point, although I prefer to just tell those two to piss off once they have repeatedly proven how useless they are - whereas a pacifist Doom run really does not. (Also, bethsoft has plenty of other, legit stuff to complain about, their atrocious launcher for one.)

Eagerly awaiting your groundbreaking book on argumentative fallacies, by the way, you seem to be an expert on the subject.

[MacSuibhne]

Originally posted by david.burghardt:

Eagerly awaiting your groundbreaking book on argumentative fallacies, by the way, you seem to be an expert on the subject.

Except there is no need for such a book if the assumption is that "argument" is beside the point and commonsense will prevail.

The game is done. It is what it is. The devs are on to other things. Nothing is gonna change. Dwelling on the frustrations of what one individual sees as a disappointment is an exercise in futility and self-destruction.

The game is not designed to be, nor is it ever gonna be, your / his / my vision of what the game 'ought' to have been.

Having said all that... I suspect I would have welcomed another solution that didn't throw M&F under the bus. Just out of sheer nostalgia for the friendships of childhood.

But it isn't a bug and it isn't bad design just because someone says it is. It is what it is.

Play it as it lies... or don't. [shrug]

[vine]

Originally posted by david.burghardt:

Except that his solution makes sense in universe - and it is reasonable to expect some players would just cash out at that point, although I prefer to just tell those two to piss off once they have repeatedly proven how useless they are - whereas a pacifist Doom run really does not. (Also, bethsoft has plenty of other, legit stuff to complain about, their atrocious launcher for one.)

Eagerly awaiting your groundbreaking book on argumentative fallacies, by the way, you seem to be an expert on the subject.

except that his solution is already possible. Henry can fund the sum from his pocket and no harm done. There are good reasons why the quest goes as it goes. I said multiple times in KCD discussions in past, not every event in life has positive outcome or solution. And having a bunch of a-holes for friends does sound realistic. Especially if you're teenagers. You do stupid stuff, sometimes not seeing past its consequences.

There are multiple quests in KCD where no positive solution is available once you accept the quest. That's how it kinda works in reality. And i like it. Again it goes against the trope of a hero who can't do wrong and has his way clear cut easy. No, not in this game, not in KCD, thanfully.

[david.burghardt]

Originally posted by MacSuibhne:

and commonsense will prevail.

That's fairly optimistic, especially on an internet forum where the "let's see you do better" card was already played.
Anyway, I too think the game as a whole is fine as it is. I was bothered by the outcomes of this quest line while the game was still actively worked on, though, but then I just figured that the winning move is not to play (i.e. get involved in the shenanigans of these two any further). I can imagine 100 percenters going nuts over it, however.

[MacSuibhne]

Originally posted by vine:

There are multiple quests in KCD where no positive solution is available once you accept the quest. That's how it kinda works in reality. And i like it. Again it goes against the trope of a hero who can't do wrong and has his way clear cut easy. No, not in this game, not in KCD, thanfully.

I like it too. It took cojones grandes--integrity--for the devs to stick to their vision on this and a number of other issues. The astounding... no, brilliant... thing is how persistently (and consistently) that vision plays out through the game.

[NewbieOne]

Thanks.

Indeed, not every situation in life has a semi-decent way out, let alone a perfect ending. Usually, you can get better outcomes in life situations if you spend more time thinking before acting and really put some effort, but not everything can be straightened out by just putting in more effort. Some people are gonna get themselves hanged.

The other side of the coin is how this inevitability of a certain number of bad outcomes connected with inability to control everything is conveyed in a game or some other piece of interactive art — persuasively or not.

I don't want to be unreasonably stubborn about this, but I tend to think games should give sufficient clues to sort of naturally realize that this is one of such situations. Realistically, in life there are always gonna be questions — like what could I have done better, or more, or faster, or could anything be done, certainly. So perhaps I'm not talking from the perspective of clear-cut realism, but I still think realism demands it that obvious ways out are preempted, foreclosed when a video game presents you with one of those rock-and-a-hard-place kind of situations. If you can instantly think of something, then the devs and testers also should have thought about it and addressed it. Not necessarily in a way you like but addressed it.

… And perhaps KCD team have done just that. You go to Robard and tell him to double the guards without ratting out on anyone. He does just that and M&F promptly get themselves killed in a stupid fashion — with Andrew commenting, just before, on their having gone off the deep end. Or you report them and they hang.

You certainly aren't entitled to always having a persuade option to get yourself (and others) out of all trouble, though that certainly feels nice from the perspective of expecting some return on all your investment in your character's talking skills.

Yeah, so, no complaints, just a pity — like in life. In real life in Henry's shoes I guess I would warn Robard to double the guards and have them be extra careful and would tear my friends another one over this but without physically restraining them and turning them over. And in the end I would probably see them hang, though of course I would beg for their lives to be spared.

No complaints except the fact that you should be able to at least try to entice them away from their stupid plan with a nice job plus perks — free house and tax break — in Prib, which would be more gainful and not putting them on a death spiral (it's common knowledge that few bandits die a natural death). Or make at least a token plea for their lives to be spared.

I'm not talking about unreasonably fanciful solutions, just the most obvious basic options that don't require too much imagination, which IMHO should always be covered by any sort of conundrum design/script (in dialogue or otherwise). Naturally, 'easier said than done' applies to this as much as to any other sort of right- or left-brained work.

Originally posted by PafunaMT:

Here's what I do - and it's very sappy and sentimental, so bring Kleenex or a vomit bag, depending on your view.

Once you get the quest from Matthew, don't go to Andrew, or talk to anyone else - go straight to Talmberg, sneak into the tower where they keep the chest, steal the bag with the money, and put 3k Groschen out of your own purse into the trunk. Go find Matthew and Fritz, share the loot, and go about your day.

I do it this way because I don't like to steal from Talmberg and I don't want Matthew and Fritz hung for dreaming up stupid ♥♥♥♥ that will get them killed. And while Andrew is a conniving schmuck, he's a useful conniving schmuck and moderately entertaining. No one dies, you get to feel good about yourself, and 3k groschen is a pittance.

Enjoy.

Thank you. It's meta, but I'm gonna do it.

[MacSuibhne]

Everything you say is reasonable. What's not reasonable is people.

In a game... as in a society... laws are made. And as long as laws are adhered to everyone benefits and everything is fine..

But there are always people who are sure that unless they are named specifically, the laws don't apply to them.

M&F are the very epitome of that POV.

I have noticed... perhaps just because I tend to be somewhat old school and, well, just old... that the devs have a fairly 'ordered' perspective about human beings and human society. So when the game gets sold into a culture that is more 'anarchistic', a good percentage bridle and rail against the rules (and restrictions) that have been overtly and tacitly imposed.

I suspect the devs deliberately created a tar pit for the unwary and indifferent to fall into. I suspect that there is a certain element of subtle moralizing written into the game... as there is in almost any significant literary endeavor.

And I, for one, applaud it.

[DargonBlak]

From a role-play perspective, my normal Henry (not a maniacal killer/thief) would have stopped dealing with M&F once he realized the plan was to steal from anyone and everyone - the original thread started down a path of "making people pay (who deserve it)", and then shifted to "screw them all, becuz i want what they have"

For me, this twist in perspective would have stopped Henry in his tracks, and i hate starting a quest line and then not doing it (a compulsive issue, i know). So i just skip it all together, and only do Masquerade so i can get Alex for Pryb.

But, now that i think of it - taking M&F to the end of their thread might be the slap in the face Henry needs to go search out Radzig... Hmmm...